AC and TRZ Agree to Terminate Arrangement

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rudder
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by rudder »

If this deal is fully green-lighted in the spring (pending government review/competition tribunal/etc), the parties would be wise to review the playbook now enshrined in the ALPA Merger Policy.

Initial issue to consider - governance.

Second issue to manage (critical!) - JCBA (Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Last - merged list.

This playbook was written to benefit all of the affected pilots (both groups). Your counterpart pilots are not the enemy. This process is only required in response to a corporate action. The pilots must deal with it rationally. And you cannot address seniority integration until you find out what the conditions of the jobs are that will be up for grabs post-merger.

Joint governance is important for setting the bargaining agenda. It is also critical for constructing a bargaining committee. And it is essential in making the multitude of bargaining decisions that will flow from the negotiations process.

Once you have a JCBA that will apply to all, then you can seek to value the positions that will result and make fact based arguments about the terms of seniority integration.

Nobody knows yet what the corporate plan is for TS, the Transat brand, or the TS O/C. Nobody knows what the corporate plan is for Rouge, the Rouge brand, or the Rouge O/C. Nobody knows what restrictions may result from the government evaluation of the merger.

Once ALL of this is known - collective bargaining can begin.

Seniority integration is logically the last step.

Good luck to all.
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garfield
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by garfield »

If you think this deal will go through, buy as much TS shares as you can, you'll do more than 10% yield
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plhought
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by plhought »

rudder wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:03 am If this deal is fully green-lighted in the spring (pending government review/competition tribunal/etc), the parties would be wise to review the playbook now enshrined in the ALPA Merger Policy.
Why would ACPA need to review the ALPA Merger policy? ACPA is not ALPA.
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ahramin
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by ahramin »

plhought wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:13 pm
rudder wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:03 am If this deal is fully green-lighted in the spring (pending government review/competition tribunal/etc), the parties would be wise to review the playbook now enshrined in the ALPA Merger Policy.
Why would ACPA need to review the ALPA Merger policy? ACPA is not ALPA.
The ALPA Merger Policy was designed as a way to maximize the gains to the pilot group as a whole during a merger. Basically it comes down to keeping your eye on the correct ball at the correct time. First use the merger as leverage for maximum gains for the entire pilot group, then fight over who gets what of the bigger pie. Do you think that is a good idea? Or should ACPA concentrate all it's efforts on minimizing the gains for the TS group?
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

Not limiting the gains of the TS group. Just protecting the career integrity of both groups should be fine.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

Maximize gains to the Pilot group?

This isn't a sum of is greater than the parts type of situation. It is the reverse.

There aren't any gains here for AC Pilots. Transat Pilots will make all the gains in this deal, AC Pilots will lose. The only question is how much.

The sooner you drop the rhetoric about "leverage for maximum gains" or "bigger pie" or "efforts on minimizing TS gains" the better. Maybe just realize you're walking into a good situation no matter what and acknowledge the fact that you're going to be eating someone else's lunch, hope for the best, and maybe we can all get along. It's not you, it's not me, it is what it is...

Your money losing holiday airline would have followed Thomas Cook in years to come had this deal not been done.
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160tonoaha
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by 160tonoaha »

altiplano wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:37 pm Your money losing holiday airline would have followed Thomas Cook in years to come had this deal not been done.
Is it not at all possible that rouge couldn't take transat out no matter how hard it tried?

I'm not a "bleu" voucher, but you seem to think that AC did TS some kind of a favor. Nobody just offers an 18/share acquisition to a company to do them a "solid." There's a strategy in CR's approach, and he's gearing up for a war with Schwartz next door. Don't think for a second that if AC didn't do TS a "favor" as you so arrogantly put, that Onyx wasn't knocking on TS' doors next.

AC isn't the end all be all you paint it to be. It may be in the pathetic socialistic capitalism that we have going on here. But on the world scale, we have a lot to learn to play ball with the players that are dominating us on a global scale. Being North America's top airline sounds as tacky as Trip Advisor's best airline in Canada. Again, big fish, in a small pond. Why are Singapore, QR, ANA, Cathay, EK, Eva, Hanian, Qantas, etc constantly beating us on a world scale? What are they doing that we aren't? If you think sitting on a 2 billion surplus is a sustainable way to beat the world market, you are a very short-sighted individual. I suggest you look to what's happening with interest rates and bank surpluses around the world to understand the value that a North American carrier brings with "cash" valuations. I wouldn't expect socialistic confused capitalists who proudly call themselves the Canadian middle class to understand these things. It's why most of them are in horse shit financially. But, AC and CR have a lot to adjust and learn from in order to be a world player. Acquiring TS is one of those adjustments.

I have a hard time seeing your point of view on TS being another Thomas Cook had it not been for AC's helping hand. Onyx would have taken them and the slots, and the market share, and happily given us a run for our business venture on some of our most profitable runs. We should be counting our lucky stars CR's buying them, not scolding them as undeserving. Those transat drivers have something dialed in that we clearly don't... likely cause we are more concerned about our 2.5x draft than actually contributing to a bigger cause. Epic of a culture we have going on, ain't it? Everytime I've been on TS, those guys have been nothing but stalwart characters, super friendly, and made a point of going over and above to make sure I was well taken care of. I don't even get that treatment traveling on C2 passes on my own damn airline. I'm viewed as more of a fuckking inconvenience...

For the record ts drivers, the majority at AC welcome you and see you as an asset, not as you eating our lunch. Anyone who looks at it otherwise is short-sighted and lacks business sense.

It's attitudes like altiplano that gives our maple leaf such a disgusting look around the airport. No one really likes us, and I hope the highly competent, well cultured TS boys and girls can teach us a thing or two on the level of competence and humility it takes to be the best in the "world" at something... give your head a shake altiplano. You're an embarrassment to what we stand for at AC. You, sir, are not a leader, likely at anything, with a point of view as sour as what you just typed. The way you carry yourself is exactly what Murray and his team are PFO'ing today. Let that sink in.

Peace.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

160tonoaha wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:13 am Is it not at all possible that rouge couldn't take transat out no matter how hard it tried?

I'm not a "bleu" voucher, but you seem to think that AC did TS some kind of a favor. Nobody just offers an 18/share acquisition to a company to do them a "solid." There's a strategy in CR's approach, and he's gearing up for a war with Schwartz next door. Don't think for a second that if AC didn't do TS a "favor" as you so arrogantly put, that Onyx wasn't knocking on TS' doors next.

AC isn't the end all be all you paint it to be. It may be in the pathetic socialistic capitalism that we have going on here. But on the world scale, we have a lot to learn to play ball with the players that are dominating us on a global scale. Being North America's top airline sounds as tacky as Trip Advisor's best airline in Canada. Again, big fish, in a small pond. Why are Singapore, QR, ANA, Cathay, EK, Eva, Hanian, Qantas, etc constantly beating us on a world scale? What are they doing that we aren't? If you think sitting on a 2 billion surplus is a sustainable way to beat the world market, you are a very short-sighted individual. I suggest you look to what's happening with interest rates and bank surpluses around the world to understand the value that a North American carrier brings with "cash" valuations. I wouldn't expect socialistic confused capitalists who proudly call themselves the Canadian middle class to understand these things. It's why most of them are in horse shit financially. But, AC and CR have a lot to adjust and learn from in order to be a world player. Acquiring TS is one of those adjustments.

I have a hard time seeing your point of view on TS being another Thomas Cook had it not been for AC's helping hand. Onyx would have taken them and the slots, and the market share, and happily given us a run for our business venture on some of our most profitable runs. We should be counting our lucky stars CR's buying them, not scolding them as undeserving. Those transat drivers have something dialed in that we clearly don't... likely cause we are more concerned about our 2.5x draft than actually contributing to a bigger cause. Epic of a culture we have going on, ain't it? Everytime I've been on TS, those guys have been nothing but stalwart characters, super friendly, and made a point of going over and above to make sure I was well taken care of. I don't even get that treatment traveling on C2 passes on my own damn airline. I'm viewed as more of a fuckking inconvenience...

For the record ts drivers, the majority at AC welcome you and see you as an asset, not as you eating our lunch. Anyone who looks at it otherwise is short-sighted and lacks business sense.

It's attitudes like altiplano that gives our maple leaf such a disgusting look around the airport. No one really likes us, and I hope the highly competent, well cultured TS boys and girls can teach us a thing or two on the level of competence and humility it takes to be the best in the "world" at something... give your head a shake altiplano. You're an embarrassment to what we stand for at AC. You, sir, are not a leader, likely at anything, with a point of view as sour as what you just typed. The way you carry yourself is exactly what Murray and his team are PFO'ing today. Let that sink in.
Do you read yourself? Take a pill.

Maybe sort your ideas out a little better before you post, it will be easier to read.

This isn't personal, but clearly it is personal for you! Almost too many insults to count there.... It's no wonder you think people don't like AC Pilots... maybe it's just that they don't like you? Let that sink in. LOL...

Can we dispatch with that? I mean where did I make it personal? Pointing out that an iconic airline working on the same model, one they had significant ties with, is done? Sorry if I hurt any feelings.

Nonetheless, I don't disagree with many of your statements, re:culture re:pass travel, but it comes from the top down, from your management friends that you seem so enamored with.

In my experience everyone, including me, will absolutely welcome our new colleagues, but very few are happy about the implications of the acquisition. Maybe you should talk to more people.

I stand by my analysis. This isn't a growth situation, don't pretend decisions from your friends in the office benefit AC Pilots.

We were already leveraged over an acquisition threat in 2017 from Ben Smith. How did we get leveraged? Because AC Pilots lose in this deal. It's not personal against the Transat Pilots, it just is what it is, and acknowledging that will go a long way to making the integration easier.

Don't try to tell me this benefits me, or the ALPA merger policy is going to bring us all gains. I've read the policy, maybe someone can point out how it will bring gains, I didn't see it in there.
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by rudder »

For the most part, the AC pilots have done poorly at the bargaining table for at least the last decade.

It would be a shame to see that pattern repeat itself in 2020 over acrimony directed at other pilots related to a corporate transaction over which they had no say.

The AC pilots control the CBA. Nothing else. Focus on that.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Daniel Cooper »

160tonoaha's post suggests at least part of that is due to the very low self worth of AC pilots.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

rudder wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:00 am For the most part, the AC pilots have done poorly at the bargaining table for at least the last decade.

It would be a shame to see that pattern repeat itself in 2020 over acrimony directed at other pilots related to a corporate transaction over which they had no say.

The AC pilots control the CBA. Nothing else. Focus on that.
"at least the last decade" - indeed.

Bargaining table for the 2020 reopener with the corporation and the bargaining table for the SLI with ALPA are two different things.

I'm focused on both.
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160tonoaha
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by 160tonoaha »

altiplano wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:35 am
160tonoaha wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:13 am Is it not at all possible that rouge couldn't take transat out no matter how hard it tried?

I'm not a "bleu" voucher, but you seem to think that AC did TS some kind of a favor. Nobody just offers an 18/share acquisition to a company to do them a "solid." There's a strategy in CR's approach, and he's gearing up for a war with Schwartz next door. Don't think for a second that if AC didn't do TS a "favor" as you so arrogantly put, that Onyx wasn't knocking on TS' doors next.

AC isn't the end all be all you paint it to be. It may be in the pathetic socialistic capitalism that we have going on here. But on the world scale, we have a lot to learn to play ball with the players that are dominating us on a global scale. Being North America's top airline sounds as tacky as Trip Advisor's best airline in Canada. Again, big fish, in a small pond. Why are Singapore, QR, ANA, Cathay, EK, Eva, Hanian, Qantas, etc constantly beating us on a world scale? What are they doing that we aren't? If you think sitting on a 2 billion surplus is a sustainable way to beat the world market, you are a very short-sighted individual. I suggest you look to what's happening with interest rates and bank surpluses around the world to understand the value that a North American carrier brings with "cash" valuations. I wouldn't expect socialistic confused capitalists who proudly call themselves the Canadian middle class to understand these things. It's why most of them are in horse shit financially. But, AC and CR have a lot to adjust and learn from in order to be a world player. Acquiring TS is one of those adjustments.

I have a hard time seeing your point of view on TS being another Thomas Cook had it not been for AC's helping hand. Onyx would have taken them and the slots, and the market share, and happily given us a run for our business venture on some of our most profitable runs. We should be counting our lucky stars CR's buying them, not scolding them as undeserving. Those transat drivers have something dialed in that we clearly don't... likely cause we are more concerned about our 2.5x draft than actually contributing to a bigger cause. Epic of a culture we have going on, ain't it? Everytime I've been on TS, those guys have been nothing but stalwart characters, super friendly, and made a point of going over and above to make sure I was well taken care of. I don't even get that treatment traveling on C2 passes on my own damn airline. I'm viewed as more of a fuckking inconvenience...

For the record ts drivers, the majority at AC welcome you and see you as an asset, not as you eating our lunch. Anyone who looks at it otherwise is short-sighted and lacks business sense.

It's attitudes like altiplano that gives our maple leaf such a disgusting look around the airport. No one really likes us, and I hope the highly competent, well cultured TS boys and girls can teach us a thing or two on the level of competence and humility it takes to be the best in the "world" at something... give your head a shake altiplano. You're an embarrassment to what we stand for at AC. You, sir, are not a leader, likely at anything, with a point of view as sour as what you just typed. The way you carry yourself is exactly what Murray and his team are PFO'ing today. Let that sink in.
Do you read yourself? Take a pill.

Maybe sort your ideas out a little better before you post, it will be easier to read.

This isn't personal, but clearly it is personal for you! Almost too many insults to count there.... It's no wonder you think people don't like AC Pilots... maybe it's just that they don't like you? Let that sink in. LOL...

Can we dispatch with that? I mean where did I make it personal? Pointing out that an iconic airline working on the same model, one they had significant ties with, is done? Sorry if I hurt any feelings.

Nonetheless, I don't disagree with many of your statements, re:culture re:pass travel, but it comes from the top down, from your management friends that you seem so enamored with.

In my experience everyone, including me, will absolutely welcome our new colleagues, but very few are happy about the implications of the acquisition. Maybe you should talk to more people.

I stand by my analysis. This isn't a growth situation, don't pretend decisions from your friends in the office benefit AC Pilots.

We were already leveraged over an acquisition threat in 2017 from Ben Smith. How did we get leveraged? Because AC Pilots lose in this deal. It's not personal against the Transat Pilots, it just is what it is, and acknowledging that will go a long way to making the integration easier.

Don't try to tell me this benefits me, or the ALPA merger policy is going to bring us all gains. I've read the policy, maybe someone can point out how it will bring gains, I didn't see it in there.
It never was personal. You just took the stance that AC somehow rescued Air Transat, and for that reason, implicitly stating that TS guys somehow are lucky. I am just here to tell you that AC is lucky they got TS otherwise it would have been Onyx, and you really wouldn't have had an opportunity for gains. And you'd be fighting an abysmal CA next door for years to come.

I agree with you, CR and his minions have to demonstrate a bit of leadership here on serious concessions. No longer being treated like a bunch of peasants is a culture shift that begins the process in us being able to demonstrate quality on a world scale. Until this culture shifts, we will remain best in NA at best.

This is a milestone of a moment where we have to put aside our hats and collaborate together to get a phenomenal outcome. Looking at TS drivers as some kind of "lucky" individual who would have otherwise been undeserving of these spots, as you so hiddenly implied, will just make all of us look like idiots. Worse than we already do wearing our stupid hats.

If you think that most of our peers don't look at us with animosity around the airport you live under a rock.
Daniel Cooper wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:53 am 160tonoaha's post suggests at least part of that is due to the very low self worth of AC pilots.
Bingo.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

"It never was personal"

You sure made it sound that way in your post by personally insulting me multiple times. As I said, maybe you need to read yourself.

Doesn't matter if I think TS Pilots are "deserving" of those spots - and I never thought of it that way, nor did I say or infer that they weren't - because they are getting those spots.

My point was that this is happening, and the majority of AC Pilots are going to take seniority hits affecting their lifestyle, pay, and career progression and TS Pilots are getting a whole new world of opportunity, higher pay, and a more certain future. So don't tell me it's good for me, because I know better.
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ahramin
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by ahramin »

altiplano wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:53 pmMy point was that this is happening, and the majority of AC Pilots are going to take seniority hits affecting their lifestyle, pay, and career progression
Altiplano, could you please explain how this is possible? I'm trying to understand but I just don't get it.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

Whatever commercial arrangement comes, overall there will be less pilot work between the 2 airlines as duplication on some routes eliminates flights.

TS is already heavier on pilot:aircraft ratio compared to AC and that includes aircraft will be phased out sooner than later. In the end you will bring more pilots than jobs. Many of those pilots will take seniority numbers well up the Air Canada list.

I could keep extrapolating it out for you, but you obviously have a different opinion.

I look forward to being shown I'm wrong... Why don't you tell me what good this does for AC Pilots? And please exclude any ideas of corporate strategy or Onex or whatever along those lines, those are executive benefits, and corporate problems, not rank and file benefits.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by C-GGGQ »

altiplano wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:47 pm
TS is already heavier on pilot:aircraft ratio compared to AC
I was under the impression that the opposite is true.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by indieadventurer »

Elimination of a cheaper competitor, over the long term, should decrease downward pressure on wages and conditions for Air Canada pilots.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

C-GGGQ wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:57 pm
altiplano wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:47 pm
TS is already heavier on pilot:aircraft ratio compared to AC
I was under the impression that the opposite is true.
More pilots per aircraft to be clear.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by C-GGGQ »

Yes. I thought that Air Canada crewed heavier especially since they use RP's where Transat does not. Believe that was in fact brought up in one of the earlier merger threads.
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by TFTMB heavy »

altiplano wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:49 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:57 pm
altiplano wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:47 pm
TS is already heavier on pilot:aircraft ratio compared to AC
I was under the impression that the opposite is true.
More pilots per aircraft to be clear.
AC seems to crew 20 pilots per tail from what I have seen on your equipment bids, TS is lower.
New duty regs are around the corner making everyone understaffed soon.
TS pilots will be roughly a 15% increase in the AC roster, not much damage to seniority and lifestyle can happen from that ratio.
I doubt AC is buying TS to have pilots sitting around doing nothing, they will maximise the commercial schedule instead of competing in loosing markets.
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