AC and TRZ Agree to Terminate Arrangement

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DanWEC
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by DanWEC »

FL-280 wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:33 pm 4501 would be nice.....
I couldn't imagine wishing things like that on my colleagues at any airline.

You must have some serious personal issues you should probably step back and address. Troll feeding out.
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FL320
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL320 »

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rudder
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by rudder »

You all need to take a look at last decade of arbitrated seniority integrations south of the border. UA/CO. DL/NW. AA/US. And even AS/VX. These will give you a flavour of the value and result of many of the arguments being made in this thread.

And as for Rouge, it is a paint job. Nothing more. A seniority integration arbitration is not a scope arbitration. The arbitrator(s) will generate a list and mobility restrictions (if applicable). That is the extent of their jurisdiction.
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Jean-Pierre
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Jean-Pierre »

Is there any American example of a flag carrier buying a low wage vacation LCC?
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by rudder »

Jean-Pierre wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:34 am Is there any American example of a flag carrier buying a low wage vacation LCC?
Take a look at the AS/VX award and reasons.
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

I am sorry but Alaska isn't a legacy carrier, nor is it a flag carrier.... You can look to the US, but we could also look to Europe where the integration would be much more brutal.
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by rudder »

FL-280 wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:53 am I am sorry but Alaska isn't a legacy carrier, nor is it a flag carrier.... You can look to the US, but we could also look to Europe where the integration would be much more brutal.
Stop worrying about labels. That is part of a self serving argument. Arbitrators have shown little sympathy for that.

Instead, look at the underlying facts (fleet/demographic/compensation/progression).

AS/VX is probably more guiding for AC/TS than any of the others (AA/US excepted).
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

Give me a break rudder.... aviation is all about labels. From the moment you put your hat on (which is labelled) and walk into the airport.
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indieadventurer
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by indieadventurer »

Come on man, grow up and try to be a professional. Our licences are all issued by TC, not the airlines we work for. We’re all pilots who happen to work for different companies because of circumstances and/or opportunities in our lives. Assigning labels and living by them only hurts us all collectively.
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FL-280
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by FL-280 »

Not saying I like it.... but its the cold harsh reality that we face.
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by rudder »

FL-280 wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:49 pm Give me a break rudder.... aviation is all about labels. From the moment you put your hat on (which is labelled) and walk into the airport.

True. As it applies to the brand.

But when you hand control of seniority list integration to arbitrator(s), it is their perspective not ours that is relevant. Read the awards.

The last decade in list integration awards has been fairly consistent in terms of methodology. It is the weighting in the formula that has differed (and some fences).

What appears to drive the result is the facts not the rhetoric.
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Duke Point
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Duke Point »

FL-280 wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:49 pm Give me a break rudder.... aviation is all about labels. From the moment you put your hat on (which is labelled) and walk into the airport.
Rudder, we more senior pilots at AC, and likely most of those forum wide really appreciate your input over the years for its very informative and non-partisan approach. This guy is obviously new, both to AC and the Forum, and clearly does not appreciate your ongoing contribution, nor the long-term respect you've earned here.

Do you have an example of the results of the AS/Virgin merger that you can post and comment on? Some of us "technically challenged" can't seem to access that info.

Cheers, DP.
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by rudder »

DP,

I have the award but am unable to find a link on line.

Synopsis is that the 2 parties agreed in advance to methodology (since the jurisprudence was fairly well established by several preceding recent seniority integration awards) but not surprisingly could not agree on weighting within the agreed formula (despite an attempt at mediation prior to arbitration).

The two weighted considerations were ‘status’ and ‘longevity’. ‘Category’ was not relevant as both parties were just bringing NB positions to the merged entity.

AS wanted much heavier weighting on longevity. VX wanted much heavier weighting on status. Demographically the senior AS pilots had decades more longevity than the VX pilots.

I won’t get in to details of initial submissions or rebuttal briefs, but the award was weighted longevity at 60% and status at 40% in constructing the merged list. In the decision, the arbitration panel (3) also cited the relevance of career expectations. For those that follow this stuff closely the arbitrators were Horowitz, Crable, and Nolan.

The merger was conducted under the guise of the latest incarnation of the ALPA Merger Policy. It was last revised in 2009. The famous ‘factors’ list was tweaked but the policy does not give weight nor does it represent the listed factors as exclusive.

Any AC/TS Pilot should also take a look at the AA/US award. That was the integration of 2 very tenured pilot groups but 1 was bringing a very large WB fleet and one was bringing a lot smaller WB fleet (fleet equaling pilot positions).

The only identifiable trend in the last 15 years for awards is that extreme positions get ignored. Splitting the baby is rarely the outcome. Stick to the facts. The result will hurt in the short term but will not be unfair to anybody. The migration to 3 member Arbitration Panels have virtually eliminated the possibility of an obviously flawed result.
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mbav8r
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by mbav8r »

rudder wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:57 am DP,

I have the award but am unable to find a link on line.

Synopsis is that the 2 parties agreed in advance to methodology (since the jurisprudence was fairly well established by several preceding recent seniority integration awards) but not surprisingly could not agree on weighting within the agreed formula (despite an attempt at mediation prior to arbitration).

The two weighted considerations were ‘status’ and ‘longevity’. ‘Category’ was not relevant as both parties were just bringing NB positions to the merged entity.

AS wanted much heavier weighting on longevity. VX wanted much heavier weighting on status. Demographically the senior AS pilots had decades more longevity than the VX pilots.

I won’t get in to details of initial submissions or rebuttal briefs, but the award was weighted longevity at 60% and status at 40% in constructing the merged list. In the decision, the arbitration panel (3) also cited the relevance of career expectations. For those that follow this stuff closely the arbitrators were Horowitz, Crable, and Nolan.

The merger was conducted under the guise of the latest incarnation of the ALPA Merger Policy. It was last revised in 2009. The famous ‘factors’ list was tweaked but the policy does not give weight nor does it represent the listed factors as exclusive.

Any AC/TS Pilot should also take a look at the AA/US award. That was the integration of 2 very tenured pilot groups but 1 was bringing a very large WB fleet and one was bringing a lot smaller WB fleet (fleet equaling pilot positions).

The only identifiable trend in the last 15 years for awards is that extreme positions get ignored. Splitting the baby is rarely the outcome. Stick to the facts. The result will hurt in the short term but will not be unfair to anybody. The migration to 3 member Arbitration Panels have virtually eliminated the possibility of an obviously flawed result.
Rudder, if you had to guess, what effect would the fact the current AC pilot list is the result of a merged list that was not DOH?
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by rudder »

Once one of the participant lists is no longer pure DOH (due to previous mergers) - DOH is off the table as apples can only match apples and oranges can only match oranges.

The AC/TS merger award will be weighted factors plus fences. And it is not a given that the arbitrator(s) will treat a TS WB position as equal to an AC WB position. Due to pre-merger compensation, it could conceivably be labelled as equal to Rouge or AC NB.
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Duke Point
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Duke Point »

Thanks for your input. Again, always informative.

Cheers, DP.
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TheStig
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by TheStig »

Thanks for your input Rudder, the quicker seniority integration occurs the better off both groups will be. Hopefully both unions can see where this ends and start there.

I don't believe that Transat Pilots have won the lottery with the merger. While Air Canada pilot are paid more, they also work more. TS pilots average 400 hours/year while AC's fly 600 to 700(rouge).

Its worth noting within the Coarse Rights (CR) system that AC pilots use to bid for equipment the Rouge 767 is classified as a Narrow Body CR due to its lower pay.

I disagree with the notion the AC has a more junior pilot group because of the hiring that has taken place since 2016. Transat's pilot list has doubled since it started operating Narrow Bodies, while AC has hired one quarter of its pilots in the same timespan. The junior L767 Captain at AC was hired in 2006/7 while TS junior WB Captain's have 5 less years of seniority.

There are some interesting articles regarding the America West and US Airways merger that discuss different weighting used.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 370ca1c175

They also rejected the proposal by east pilots, a relatively senior pilot group, to assign a 55% weighing to longevity, or length of service, in determining seniority.

Rather, the panel based its award just 15% on longevity, with an 85% weighing for “category and status.” Category refers generally to the size of an aircraft (larger aircraft entitle pilots to higher pay) and to status as a captain or a first officer.

Legacy American pilots had advocated integration on a "straight category and status basis," the panel said.

However, “use of a pure category and status methodology would give east pilots inadequate credit for their demonstrably greater ‘sweat equity’ service and no credit at all for the extremely high rate of near term retirement attrition they bring to the table,” it said

The advanced chronological age and high longevity of many east pilots, when compared to both the west pilots and the AA pilots, translates into an equity that has been recognized in many prior {seniority list} integrations, the panel said, including the Delta/Northwest integration.

At the same time, assigning a heavy weight to longevity would unfairly disadvantage former America West pilots, the panel said. .

Over time, the panel noted, former America West pilots will have the opportunity to fill the jobs vacated by retiring east pilots. In the 11 years since the merger with US Airways, those pilots have been immobilized by the continuing seniority conflict and generally unable to upgrade by moving from the Phoenix base.
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Last edited by TheStig on Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fanblade
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by Fanblade »

Rudder DP Stig,

:smt023
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termerair
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by termerair »

I don't believe that Transat Pilots have won the lottery with the merger. While Air Canada pilot are paid more, they also work more. TS pilots average 400 hours/year while AC's fly 600 to 700(rouge).
Totally agree on that one...! The Transat lifestyle is pretty hard to beat in my opinion. It's hard work for 4-5-6 months of the year and then extremely quiet during the slow season. The pay check doesn't buy you time at home nor the opportunity to take off for 4 or 5 sometime 6 weeks in a row with no flying.

On that same note, is there any possibilities to take a shared block at AC or Rouge...? Something like 2 months On, 2 months off mirrored with a colleague who wants to do the same. Obviously 50% of the pay but it's a nice to have that option...

What about the possibility to take a self financed leave...? You work 3 years at 75% of your salary and you get the fourth year off paid (at 75%)... does it exist at AC or Rouge...? It's something that doesn't exist at Transat but would be nice to have...!

Cheers!

T.
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada and Transat announce Increased Purchase Price to $18 per Share

Post by altiplano »

Shared blocks? Year long sabbaticals? LOL...

Get to work.
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