Flairs troubles......

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Realitychex
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Flairs troubles......

Post by Realitychex » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:53 am

https://globalnews.ca/news/6075195/b-c- ... -airlines/

Not a good sign that Flair was in serious arrears over a paltry $50,000 per month dispatch contract during peak summer when they should have been printing cash.

I would imagine they're on close to a "no cash, no push back" basis now with key suppliers.

That's a fun place to be when you're early in the post Thanksgiving - pre Christmas abyss with a purely domestic sched with minimal connectivity.

8)
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by Yycjetdriver » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:13 am

Heard from one of their employees there’s been at least one instance of not being paid on time in recent months. Sounds like the beginning of the end...
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altiplano
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by altiplano » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:10 pm

It's Air Canada's fault.
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tbaylx
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by tbaylx » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:17 pm

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:13 am
Heard from one of their employees there’s been at least one instance of not being paid on time in recent months. Sounds like the beginning of the end...
That would be untrue. Pay is never late.

Rumors of flair's demise are greatly exaggerated.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by Yycjetdriver » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:36 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:17 pm
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:13 am
Heard from one of their employees there’s been at least one instance of not being paid on time in recent months. Sounds like the beginning of the end...
That would be untrue. Pay is never late.

Rumors of flair's demise are greatly exaggerated.
One of that employees roles is to oversee payroll, so while you may not have missed a paycheque I believe them when they say some employees did.
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Donald
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by Donald » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:44 pm

Sounds more like a pissing match between KFC and Flair, and possibly some poor accounting on Flair’s part.

KFC giving notice to collect $200K in 5 days, or else, when Flair still owes them $4M in leases?

Something else is going on.
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tbaylx
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by tbaylx » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:04 pm

Donald wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:44 pm
Sounds more like a pissing match between KFC and Flair, and possibly some poor accounting on Flair’s part.

KFC giving notice to collect $200K in 5 days, or else, when Flair still owes them $4M in leases?

Something else is going on.
probably a lot closer to the truth of the matter
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vrefplus5
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by vrefplus5 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:46 pm

KF is throwing a petulant hissy fit and the fact they were ordered to pay Flair's court costs for wasting it's time, leads me to think the Kelowna crowd found a bored local reporter from where....Penticton was it?....to engineer a little smear job. There's a bit more to this that's not reported. Nothing to see here. Loads/yield continue to exceed projections someone who operates on the almost full planes said, further expansion imminent and theyare certainly nowhere close to "cash for push" territory as RC alluded to. Keep on point.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:35 pm

vrefplus5 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:46 pm
KF is throwing a petulant hissy fit and the fact they were ordered to pay Flair's court costs for wasting it's time, leads me to think the Kelowna crowd found a bored local reporter from where....Penticton was it?....to engineer a little smear job. There's a bit more to this that's not reported. Nothing to see here. Loads/yield continue to exceed projections someone who operates on the almost full planes said, further expansion imminent and theyare certainly nowhere close to "cash for push" territory as RC alluded to. Keep on point.
Yes, yes, all a waste of time...
Flair Airlines said its didn’t receive Kelowna Flightcraft’s notice until July 9, with its senior executives finding out on Aug. 13.
Wait, they received the notice on July 9th and claim that the senior execs didn't receive it until August 13? That doesn't sound like it's KF's fault. Great, November 9th should be the date of termination.

With a fleet of 7 aircraft, they probably have somewhere in the range of 40 pilots, 100 flight attendants, 100 gate agents, and another 100 people in their head office.

HOW THE @#$! DO YOU NOT PASS MAIL UP THE CHAIN WHEN IT SAYS "END OF CONTRACT DUE TO NON-PAYMENT"
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Soyer
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by Soyer » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:51 am

Lovely reporting with no substance, counter view are researched facts.

There is not a judge anywhere that would force a company to continue providing service if it was not paid. The fact that the judge produced an order AND required KF to also pay legal costs is indicative of the fact that they had no legal grounds.

Take the time to research or call a friend or acquaintance who is in the legal field and you can see the statement of fact and final judgement.
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flyinhigh
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by flyinhigh » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:06 am

Now I'm confused. Doesn't kelowna own flair???
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Free Woodpecker
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by Free Woodpecker » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:46 pm

flyinhigh wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:06 am
Now I'm confused. Doesn't kelowna own flair???
Flair (Flightcraft Air?) was never officially owned by KFC, however JR was the former principal owner.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:24 pm

Soyer wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:51 am
Lovely reporting with no substance, counter view are researched facts.

There is not a judge anywhere that would force a company to continue providing service if it was not paid. The fact that the judge produced an order AND required KF to also pay legal costs is indicative of the fact that they had no legal grounds.

Take the time to research or call a friend or acquaintance who is in the legal field and you can see the statement of fact and final judgement.
The article specifically quotes the Justice...
Justice Paul Walker ultimately sided with Flair Airlines, stating, “Flair Airlines has clearly established it will suffer irreparable harm if the contract is terminated today.”
He rejected the attempt on the grounds of causing irreparable harm and not on the grounds that you are claiming.
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Realitychex
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by Realitychex » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:59 am

Free Woodpecker wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:46 pm
flyinhigh wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:06 am
Now I'm confused. Doesn't kelowna own flair???
Flair (Flightcraft Air?) was never officially owned by KFC, however JR was the former principal owner.
I’m pretty sure BL owns most if not all of the 737-400 fleet and supplies maintenance services and other key flight ops and backroom functions.

Outside of fuel and payroll, the third largest check written monthly by Flair is likely to BL.

He who has the gold makes the rules. And as BL often used to say, he has a board meeting every morning with a razor in his hand in front of the mirror.

8)
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vrefplus5
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by vrefplus5 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:44 pm

I’m pretty sure BL owns most if not all of the 737-400 fleet
Well, in this particular case you’d be pretty wrong :lol: Flair owns their entire 737-400 fleet. Times and alliances have changed Marcus.
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Realitychex
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by Realitychex » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:30 pm

If they bought them outright and now plan on retiring the lot this quickly, that’s gonna be a nasty accelerated depreciation hit on the books.

If they had planned to switch to NG’s this quickly in the program, they should have maintained the operational and financial flexibility of operating leases. It’s not as if it’s a particularly in-demand aircraft these days. Lessees can almost name their price.

Those old -400’s aren’t good for much more than beer cans, though the youngest ones might have some freighter life left in them.

In a sworn document, Flair acknowledged that they’d be gone in 10 days if the contract were cancelled.

Anyway you cut it, that’s indicative of an operation hanging on by its fingernails.

Ballooning to 20 aircraft in 2020 is the sort of thing Mike the White was famous for. I can’t wait to see how that turns out from afar. It’s a playbook we’ve seen in numerous occasions and has rarely succeeded.

8)
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tbaylx
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by tbaylx » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:58 am

Realitychex wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:30 pm
If they bought them outright and now plan on retiring the lot this quickly, that’s gonna be a nasty accelerated depreciation hit on the books.

If they had planned to switch to NG’s this quickly in the program, they should have maintained the operational and financial flexibility of operating leases. It’s not as if it’s a particularly in-demand aircraft these days. Lessees can almost name their price.

Those old -400’s aren’t good for much more than beer cans, though the youngest ones might have some freighter life left in them.

In a sworn document, Flair acknowledged that they’d be gone in 10 days if the contract were cancelled.

Anyway you cut it, that’s indicative of an operation hanging on by its fingernails.

Ballooning to 20 aircraft in 2020 is the sort of thing Mike the White was famous for. I can’t wait to see how that turns out from afar. It’s a playbook we’ve seen in numerous occasions and has rarely succeeded.

8)
Worked for both, much different environment and financing at Flair. Expansion here is controlled with the background infrastructure being built to support the growth. There might not be 20 aircraft here in 2020 but the growth is steady. Time will tell
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Soyer
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by Soyer » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:52 pm

Realitychex wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:30 pm
If they bought them outright and now plan on retiring the lot this quickly, that’s gonna be a nasty accelerated depreciation hit on the books.

If they had planned to switch to NG’s this quickly in the program, they should have maintained the operational and financial flexibility of operating leases. It’s not as if it’s a particularly in-demand aircraft these days. Lessees can almost name their price.

Those old -400’s aren’t good for much more than beer cans, though the youngest ones might have some freighter life left in them.

In a sworn document, Flair acknowledged that they’d be gone in 10 days if the contract were cancelled.

Anyway you cut it, that’s indicative of an operation hanging on by its fingernails.

Ballooning to 20 aircraft in 2020 is the sort of thing Mike the White was famous for. I can’t wait to see how that turns out from afar. It’s a playbook we’ve seen in numerous occasions and has rarely succeeded.

8)

Lots of reasons to have the aircraft 'on the books' - even short term. They are all in demand for cargo work and there won't be an depreciation hit.

Flair would have been gone in 10 days if their was no Dispatch (as would any airline). Setting up or moving dispatch is a 90 day timeline so KF used that threat to extort Flair. Didn't work and the issue is closed.

The flights are full and yields are still good, even on the shoulder season. There also won't be 20 aircraft in 2020, but it will grow. The naysayers can bray all they like about Flairs demise, it is growing, while profitable. They turned that corner, while Swoop struggles offering money losing pricing with an operation in shambles and Enerjet still not moving. Flair has teh advantage of being first, well run and in the black.
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atpilot
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by atpilot » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:09 pm

Soyer wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:52 pm
Realitychex wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:30 pm
If they bought them outright and now plan on retiring the lot this quickly, that’s gonna be a nasty accelerated depreciation hit on the books.

If they had planned to switch to NG’s this quickly in the program, they should have maintained the operational and financial flexibility of operating leases. It’s not as if it’s a particularly in-demand aircraft these days. Lessees can almost name their price.

Those old -400’s aren’t good for much more than beer cans, though the youngest ones might have some freighter life left in them.

In a sworn document, Flair acknowledged that they’d be gone in 10 days if the contract were cancelled.

Anyway you cut it, that’s indicative of an operation hanging on by its fingernails.

Ballooning to 20 aircraft in 2020 is the sort of thing Mike the White was famous for. I can’t wait to see how that turns out from afar. It’s a playbook we’ve seen in numerous occasions and has rarely succeeded.

8)

Lots of reasons to have the aircraft 'on the books' - even short term. They are all in demand for cargo work and there won't be an depreciation hit.

Flair would have been gone in 10 days if their was no Dispatch (as would any airline). Setting up or moving dispatch is a 90 day timeline so KF used that threat to extort Flair. Didn't work and the issue is closed.

The flights are full and yields are still good, even on the shoulder season. There also won't be 20 aircraft in 2020, but it will grow. The naysayers can bray all they like about Flairs demise, it is growing, while profitable. They turned that corner, while Swoop struggles offering money losing pricing with an operation in shambles and Enerjet still not moving. Flair has teh advantage of being first, well run and in the black.
Everyone at Flair is committed to making it a successful airline. They’re a good group of people.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Flairs troubles......

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:23 am

The old car sitting in the driveway is essentially free, financing long paid off. A lease costs money no matter what. Doesn't cost any money to park an owned plane. Still paying the lease or early cancellation fees on a leased plane when it's parked.

The -400s will be gone when the leasing/financing terms on a newer aircraft outweigh the increased fuel burn. That point varies dramatically with utilization.
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