Corporate Pilot "Duties"

[DanWEC]

Let's eat, Grandma.

Punctuation saves lives!

[1000 HP]

[Cat Driver]

With nothing better to do this morning I was surfing through Avcanada and read through all the comments in this thread.

Here is the gem of the lot.

multitude of non related and menial tasks unrelated to that of a pilot

.

We are in the process of putting together an aviation department in a new high end lodge business out here on the west coast, in time we plan on having up to ten different locations and each location will have a dedicated fixed wing amphibian and a helicopter.

I see the industry has changed and I may have to learn how to deal with special people called pilots during the hiring process.

Any suggestions on how I should approach these special people so as not to offend their sense of self worth?

[cdnpilot77]

Just don't tell them that there may be some duties aside from flying an airplane until after you have hired them if they want a full time instead of a part time job. That seems to be what they want. I noticed Otterflogger (the OP) had a job ad recently that required maintenance of outpost camps as part of the job descriptions, seems a bit hypocritical doesn't it?

[Cat Driver]

It may be best if I do not express my real feelings about pilots here cdnpilot77.

[Lost Lake]

I think AC, WJ, porter, Etc. are the logical choices for "real pilots". No menial chores, except the walk around and loading the FD.

[floatpilot]

Feel free to express your feelings about pilots Cat, I am curious? Cnd There is quite a bit of difference in the job ad posted by "otterfloger" than the one you posted. I didn't see anywhere in his ad anything about "farm chores" or "limo" driving! His ad is for a BUSH PILOT and related duties involved with that business. Not to be some rich guys bitch, for a chance to drive is dehavilland beaver to his cottage a couple times a summer! Wonder why pilots don't make any money

[cdnpilot77]

I am quite certain my working conditions were vastly superior to any of those offered by that company for a 6 month season. I am not getting into this debate again!

[Cat Driver]

O.K. , I will try and give a bit of my feelings about pilots and their outlook on work.

I didn't see anywhere in his ad anything about "farm chores" or "limo" driving! His ad is for a BUSH PILOT and related duties involved with that business. Not to be some rich guys bitch,

When I read comments like the above I am not quite sure about the way some pilots think about working for a living.

I am not a rich guy but I am involved in a business that owns a couple of airplanes now and we are planning on expanding into rotary wing as well as adding some more fixed wing machines.

The flying will be seasonal and only in support of our lodge so the annual flying time will be around the two hundred hour mark in the first few years, at the moment we plan on using one pilot to fly both the helicopter and the amphib.

If I were to ask the pilot to drive a company limo to pick up a customer from YVR to another location where the helicopter is I do not feel that is taking advantage of the employee as it is just part of working for us.

So if I expect our employee to do work at other than flying duties does that make me a poor employer?

[GUMPS]

Just don't tell them that there may be some duties aside from flying an airplane until after you have hired them if they want a full time instead of a part time job. That seems to be what they want. I noticed Otterflogger (the OP) had a job ad recently that required maintenance of outpost camps as part of the job descriptions, seems a bit hypocritical doesn't it?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81134
Is this the ad you're referring to? Looks like a pretty typical float pilot job to me...
You're right, shoveling your bosses horse shit is much more superior.

[floatpilot]

Cat, I don't see anything wrong with what you suggest, but would you get that pilot after to go over to your place and cut the grass and insulate the garage, then mabe feed the donkey?

[cdnpilot77]

Just don't tell them that there may be some duties aside from flying an airplane until after you have hired them if they want a full time instead of a part time job. That seems to be what they want. I noticed Otterflogger (the OP) had a job ad recently that required maintenance of outpost camps as part of the job descriptions, seems a bit hypocritical doesn't it?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=81134
Is this the ad you're referring to? Looks like a pretty typical float pilot job to me...
You're right, shoveling your bosses horse shit is much more superior.

Yup, I can quote you too

Forget it. Some people just stay narrow minded their whole lives.

[Cat Driver]

Cat, I don't see anything wrong with what you suggest, but would you get that pilot after to go over to your place and cut the grass and insulate the garage, then mabe feed the donkey?

It all depends on if the pilot was on the pay roll and if I needed the work done and there was no one else to do it.

I guess I just fail to see why a pilot is above working for his/her pay.

Here is another slant on this subject.

I pay top dollar to any pilot who works for me, so if a pilots pay is expected to be above average and I ask him/her to feed the donkey they are the best paid donkey feeders in the country.....maybe I am just simple minded and don't quite understand the subject.

I do draw the line on asking the donkey to fly the airplane/helicopter though, because I don't think the donkey is capable of doing it......almost but not quite.

[DanWEC]

Cat, I don't see anything wrong with what you suggest, but would you get that pilot after to go over to your place and cut the grass and insulate the garage, then mabe feed the donkey?

Oh... not this thread again.

Floatpilot- Where do you draw your arbitrary line here?

Let's compare these things: "Bush pilot duties". What does that include? Dock Repair? Digging out house pits? Replacing the burners on a propane stove?
Are you saying that somehow these things are more directly related to the mysterious and skillful art of proper hold pattern entry and memorizing Vspeeds than cutting the lawn in front of the hangar that your bird is stored in?


Hey, Cat, I'm offended by the insinuation that a donkey can't fly a plane. I'm a complete Ass myself and I do a pretty good job! : Donkeys are people too.

[1000 HP]

As long as it's spelled out to you coming in, what's the difference? I've painted a few cabin floors myself. I was lucky enough to never have to dig out the old pooper (most lodge owners just dig a new hole, more sanitary)
And I've scrubbed a lot of aircraft bellies, and assisted the mechanics with maintenance duties when needed. I actually like riveting and wrenching. Most years I probably put more hours in on the dock helping to load airplanes vs flying them. I've worked the company store and even run the lodge BBQ. And yes, I've even cut the boss's lawn. I even helped do some real landscaping. But only if I liked the boss, ya gotta draw the line somewhere.... Other weird duties included "shooting the beaver" and "bashing the gopher". (Those of you with a runway will understand) That's float flying for you. The useless ones don't get rehired.

As far as sniffing disdainfully at $37,500? My line 150 in 1993 was $12,500. Ok so it's awhile ago, but try raising a family on that. And that was flying an Otter yet.... As long as your wife works too, that's not too bad to do a little quality time building. I wouldn't plan on staying at that rate for long. I also wouldn't take it today, but I'm not really time-building anymore, although I don't have any "Goose-Time" yet

As an added bonus, my insurance company considers all my amphib time to be retractable time, so I get a good discount on the little airplane every year. My 400 hrs of retractable Beaver time helped me out on a couple of jobs as well.

[seasonaldriver]

I agree with Cat Driver 1000HP and the others who say that if a pilot is on salary then he should do whatever may be required to keep the operation going, so to speak.

Anyone who works for a lodge for instance (been there, done that, have a closet full of Tshirts and flight suits) should expect to service outposts, change propane tanks, mow a lawn now and then or whatever. I've done all that and made furniture, painted cabins, unloaded semis in the winter and written pamphlets even. I think that as long as it doesn't interfere with the flying it kind of makes life more interesting. If all I was allowed to do was fly the plane I think I'd get bored. Flying is a great career,and a person who can do the perfect approach, make the smoothest landings and have the sharpest crease in his trousers is a real pilot, but I think that it's also great to be the person who can fix things and know how things work behind the scenes as well as fly the plane from A-B-A-B-A-B-A etc.

That's my thoughts.

[trey kule]

I think there are a couple of areas that confuse the issue.

The first is where a pilot is expected to do things that do not relate whatsoever to their job. As a corporate pilot I can see nothing wrong with going and picking up the customers. and driving their car through the car wash on the way to pick them up..but I have a problem with being expected to personally wash their car...if the company wants to do that, then the company can have it done. I dont recall ever seeing one of the executives washing cars for a customer.Shows me what they think of pilots expecting them to do it. And as a bush pilot I see nothing wrong with scrubbing the belly of a plane,or helping to sweep out the hangar. Unfortunately, some operators go a bit outside these parameters, and you are a full time pilot, and a full time something else...I have even heard of pilots being required to wait on tables in a lodge... Unless the pay is super good for this type of extra duty, I am not in favor of it...It is taking advantage of a pilot.

The other problem that arises is when companies expect a pilot to fly for 8 hours and then do other duties...A 70 hour work week.. And the worst is when they are expected to help around the place on their days off.

I was actually going to start a thread for newbie's on employer pay scams, but I thought it might be of little value.

Fortunately, I think many of the good operators recognize this , and are mindful of the unrelated extra duties, but I understand there are a few scumbag operators out there who expect a pilot to effectively do two full time jobs...

[Siddley Hawker]

Any suggestions on how I should approach these special people so as not to offend their sense of self worth?

50 feet on your knees over coarse gravel oughta do it. As for the donkey I wouldn't mind feeding it but there's no way I'll fly co-pilot with him. I do have some dignity.

[floatpilot]

+1 tres. Finally some one gets it! Cat, if I were to pay you really well,like you pay your pilots,would you come over and do some of my chores? I am looking for an honest answer. I no that I would not do someone else chores as part of my flying job, but whatever floats your boat. The job that otter flogger posted was for a bush pilot, with the duties that come with that operation. Whatever it takes to keep the customers happy and coming back. Now as for cdn pilots job, it is not a corporate job, it is for a guy that has too much money and is to cheap to actually pay a pilot to fly him around a couple times a summer and look after the airplane so he gets the pilot to drive the limo, cut the grass, farm chores.ha. That still makes me laugh,and there is nothing wrong with it.
Dan, mabe get into the industry, before you provide us with all of your knowledge.

Flames away boys!

[Cat Driver]

I'll try and answer your question as best as I can floatpilot.

Working for a living is something most people in our society do to make money to live on and buy stuff they need or want.

The type of work involved will vary from person to person depending on their skills and what they want to work at.

Flying an aircraft is a means to earn a living and for a lot of people it is more fun than work.

Also the type of flying has a lot to do with how enjoyable it is.

The most enjoyable for me was crop dusting many many years ago.....the worst for me was flying in the air show business......I would rather feed a donkey than go back to that.

The bottom line in what work I will do is how much does it pay.

Cat.

[floatpilot]

Cat, I hear what you are saying. I have flown for a living, to buy things like you, I guess. I also have another job, flying now has become a second job more for fun than money. I can guarantee you that if one of our bosses asked one of us to come back to his place to do some chores, he would get laughed at mabe even teased a bit or punched out. The point I am trying to make is that this sort of abuse only happens in aviation because we all like to fly! Name any other occupation where this kind of nonsense takes place, I've had many jobs in all different atmospheres and I have never come across this.

[Cat Driver]

We are on the same frequency floatpilot.

Flying is a job and the pay for flying should reflect the work the pilot is expected to perform.

"" Using. "" a pilot to perform other duties outside of their work description becuse they will do whatever is asked of them to be allowed to fly is despicable.

In other words, if duties other than flying are going to be part of the job description they should be clearly undertood and agreed to by both parties and each duty should be paid for fairly.

[Meatservo]

I agree that a pilot living and working at a lodge, or flying for an "outfitter", needs to be willing to do a lot of peripheral support work like toting propane tanks and fuel barrels, cleaning and fixing boats, minor landscaping, (digging outhouse holes) etc.

...That's why I don't bother with that kind of flying anymore. I hate that shit.

[DanWEC]

floatpilot wrote:
Dan, mabe get into the industry, before you provide us with all of your knowledge.

Hm, I merely proposed a comparison between fixing a dock and mowing a hangar lawn. I clearly see both sides of the argument and I'm giving my opinion, which I stand by. Many occupations and positions demand a bit of work outside the fixed skillset of the exact title, that's pretty much universal in any industry- in varying degrees of course.
I don't agree with requiring unrelated duties after the fact, but here everything is laid out. It's just the job as it sits. My fist job in aviation required working a part time hotel desk. Ridiculous, yes, but some of the part time pilots pick up a shift at it here and there for an extra few bucks. I don't agree with it, but bottom line it's an option and it's their choice.

Anyhow, since there's a regression to odd personal comments like that in a conversation that in itself revolves around principle, I am out.

[Liquid Charlie]

Well all I can say is that if there is a proper job description and the employer is up front with what he expects and as long as he stays within and honours the labour laws the choice becomes entirely up to the potential employee -- no one holds a gun to your head to accept the job so why bitch and complain if you have to get your hands dirty and step in a little donkey shit - if the guy lies to you -- you still have options - like make sure to write up a good snag (especially if he uses contract maintenance) and catch the greyhound -- - cuz your last cheque is toast anyway -- lmfaoooooo