Bush flying training.

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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Bush flying training.

#51 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:04 pm

The idea Meatservo is for high time pilots with a history of safe flying in a given field of aviation to get together and form an association of pilots who offer advanced flight training / pilot mentoring to low time pilots wishing to upgrade their skills to make them more attractive to a potential employer by producing a certificate of competency signed by a teacher in this group.

Most employers know how to separate fact from B.S.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#52 Post by Meatservo » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:51 pm

Chuck Ellsworth wrote: Most employers know how to separate fact from B.S.
Well I guess I'd better stay away from teaching then. I'm pretty sure my employers think I'm a retard.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#53 Post by peterdillon » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:08 am

So glad to see someone is offering to help pilots get professional training. Best of luck. What we see at the float base with some of the new inexperienced pilots lately is downright scary. While its not the pilots fault I suspect the insurance industry will change that game shortly once they tally up what the pilot shortage is costing them. Now that new pilots aren't lined up at the dock it seems that some operators are just closing their eyes and hoping for the best or there is a lack of really experienced pilots that also "have the ability to teach." Just like learning to golf everybody is just a hacker when they start and the fastest way to learn is good teaching and practice. I don't know what the big deal is about who is called a bush pilot. Also like golf my main job so far has been staying out of the bush.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#54 Post by Cat Driver » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:31 am

Just like learning to golf everybody is just a hacker when they start and the fastest way to learn is good teaching and practice.
Exactly, and the sea plane ratings are about as base as training gets.

For example how many pilots get their rating without having ever landed on true glassy water? 80%?

And the solo flying really is not training, it should be scrapped and replaced with a flight test by an independent flight test examiner.

That one thing alone will make getting the rating cheaper as the school / airplane owner will not have to pay the higher insurance for solo flight.
I don't know what the big deal is about who is called a bush pilot.
It is not a big deal, however what other description is there in aviation that describes the type of flying.

There is a guy here on this thread that is confusing bush flying with flying right seat in a Navajo airport to airport IFR.

Anyhow thanks for the positive remarks Peter. :mrgreen:
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Re: Bush flying training.

#55 Post by trey kule » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:11 pm

Actually, I kind of liked the solo part of the sea rating. Showed that the instructor teaching had enough faith in their standards to let them their student fly by themselves. Too many pilots show up with multi ratings from an FTU that, after training them, would not rent them the plane to go solo....and the poor new pilot expects their new company to allow it.
I think the same might just happen if the solo sea plane requirement was eliminated.
Examiner as a substitute..that is the FAA way...good business for examiners, but I still would like to see a trainer have enough faith in their student and training to cut them loose solo.

I agree 100% with the lack of actual glassy water experience, but practically unless time is of no consideration, the way it has been done for years seems to be working well enough. The question should be how many of those who only got glassy water simulation went on to have a glassy water accident? I cant recall any CADORS mentioning a connection.

Unfortunately, time and money are a consideration in most cases when it comes to training. unless the trainng is recognized as superior by insurers or companies hiring,I think it is going to be a tough row to hoe.

Best of luck with it though.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#56 Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:44 pm

I have not been involved in training in Canada for decades, when I was in the training business in Canada the multi engine flight tests were done by Transport Canada which should mean the check pilot would not have a monetary gain in doing a check ride.
Unfortunately, time and money are a consideration in most cases when it comes to training. unless the trainng is recognized as superior by insurers or companies hiring,I think it is going to be a tough row to hoe.
When I was in the advanced flight training business I had a relationship with Lloyds of London underwriters that when my clients were signed off as competent by me the client got a very attractive insurance rate.

I am now retired and have zero interest in doing any flight training and my involvement in the training program being offered by Pacific Seaplanes is giving suggestions only, I receive zero pay for any effort I put into it.

It is my way of giving back to aviation some of what aviation gave me.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#57 Post by trey kule » Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:19 pm

A noble effort.

The US has a program for sea plane training called SEAWINGS. It is similar to the FAA WINGS program which had very good results for land based aircraft. It is an award program. And I have a very nice, detailed syllabus that accompanied the copy sent me.

I too, have a great interest in training, as more and more there is an effort to substitute training for experience. While smart people know that will not work, it is still being pushed by various interests, so quality training is a key issue.

TC has published some good material, and the FAA even more. The problem has been that different entities offering float ratings were ignoring the knowledge. Canada has been blessed by allowing experienced, non instructor rated pilots to teach float flying,thus sharing wisdom and experience in a practical way. Unfortunately , more and more often we are finding flight instructors with minimal actual seaplane experience teaching it.
And this, I think is the result of a misguided approach by insurers. Years ago we could hire anyone with a CPL . Give them a float rating and they were insurable. Now,it seems the insurers want 50 hours..So the goal is to get 50 hours as cheaply as possible...And that typically means using inexperienced pilots to teach. It is a vicious circle.
I wish Randy all the best in raising the bar..Hope it works. An insurance reduction for those who graduate would be a big positive.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#58 Post by Bede » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:59 am

TeePeeCreeper wrote:
upintheair_ wrote:I got my bush flying training when I got a job. Now I'm a bush pilot.

Easy, and free...
Dude! You are sitting in the right seat of a Piper Navaho in Red Lake, forgive me but you are NOT a "bushpilot"!

Unless I am misinformed....

-How many camps have you flown into?
-Do you know what a tindi ramp is?
-Have you ever "dropped" drums of fuel using only ropes?
-External loads?
-Have you ever been in command of a ski or float equipped aircraft and flown over a site where you know the people trapping/staking a claim and stopped to give them your news paper or to check that all was ok/needed anything even though your company didn't ask you too do it... You made the landing and taxied in as close to camp as you could because doing so is... "The right thing to do in the North and wanted to ensure that your fellow man was OK?"

Sir, with all due respect, you might live and operate out of YXL, but ARE NOT A TRUE "BUSHPILOT"

All the best and fly safe,
TPC

PS: If you ever have the privilege of running into J.S.G at the Lakeview, please tell him I say "hello" and call yourself "humble Navaho right seat pie" and not "a northern bushpilot"!
I love these AvCanada penis measuring contests. I say if you haven't landed on the Beaufort Sea, you're not a really bush pilot. Why do I say that? because I've done it and few others have. I therefore, am part of a much rarified breed of bush pilots :smt040

Having said that, is flying a Navajo out of gravel strips bush flying? Not a chance.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#59 Post by Meatservo » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:29 am

But there aren't any bushes on the Beaufort sea. Unless you mean kelp? Are you a Kelp Pilot?
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Re: Bush flying training.

#60 Post by Confliction » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:15 pm

I've landed on the Beaufort (almost hit a Beluga), but I don't think I was a "bush pilot" with my GPS and SAT phone and fancy digs back in Inuvik.

I think the title of bush pilot might have more to do with how long you serve the "bush" rather than fully about the type of flying. If someone flies a 206 or Islander or Navajo in northern Ontario for 30 years then maybe they would be close.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#61 Post by Lees147 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:17 pm

Chuck Ellsworth wrote:The idea Meatservo is for high time pilots with a history of safe flying in a given field of aviation to get together and form an association of pilots who offer advanced flight training / pilot mentoring to low time pilots wishing to upgrade their skills to make them more attractive to a potential employer by producing a certificate of competency signed by a teacher in this group.

Most employers know how to separate fact from B.S.
I'm not 100% sure but in other countries such as Britain aren't they trained by high time pilots right off the hop?

Canada and the US have such a great resource when it comes to flying in terms of general aviation and even the number of aviation jobs (agri/bush) but I personally think that the fact that not much more than a 200 hour pilot is good enough to train another, this somewhat worries me. I know the idea is to keep training costs down but sometimes it's better to find an old pro than a young stallion to teach you how to fly.

I am lucky that my flying instructor was a retiree rather than a young upstart.

I'm just curious are you happy with the training system in Canada and just want to see more 'advanced' courses on offer (as you are doing) or would you like everyone to get better training right from the start (which would increase flight training costs) or even both?
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Re: Bush flying training.

#62 Post by TheNorthman » Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:26 pm

I'm not 100% sure but in other countries such as Britain aren't they trained by high time pilots right off the hop?
It's pretty much the same deal in the UK, you get your Commercial Licence then (if you choose to go the instructor route) you get your Instructors Rating and off you go.

Only difference in the UK is that you can initially only teach people to get their Private Pilots Licence, you then need to build up experience in instructing before you can teach people for the Commercial Licence and advanced ratings like Multi Engine and Instrument Ratings.

In the UK it's even harder to build up those PIC hours so a lot of people choose to go the instructor route. Just because somebodies young and relatively inexperienced though doesn't mean to say they'll be a bad instructor.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#63 Post by Cat Driver » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:15 pm

Well if you have high time experienced instructors who are good at what they are doing the PPL students should finish close to the minimum times Transport Canada lays out in the training program.

Not twice the time.

So even paying the instructor twice the normal rate would still save forty five hours of airplane rental.

Then again I am getting a bit old and maybe senility is creeping in.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#64 Post by trey kule » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:34 am

Just because somebodies young and relatively inexperienced though doesn't mean to say they'll be a bad instructor.
Logically , that is true.
The issue is there are enough out there who are not good instructors to generalize with a fair amount of accuracy.

The problem is not so much age or experience,particularly in teaching at the ppl level.
It is attitude.
A great many of those young instructors are just passing through. Building time is their objective, not teaching their students. Sit in an instructors' lounge some time and you wont hear much talk about teaching methods or discussing how to deal with a student's training difficulty, but you will hear lots about this or that company that is hiring . Or how to fly this or that bigger, faster, shiny aircraft

What do I mean about attitude....look at the quote above. "Relatively inexperienced"..,
That is attitude...at 250 hours you are inexperienced. Period. Again maybe relative to someone with zero hours you are not, but to teach, you are inexperienced.
And again, that is not necessarily a problem, but it is an indicator of a lack of understanding about the importance of experience.

There is a real opportunity for retirees to give back, but after looking at it myself, the working conditions were just not there. (I did find a couple of very nice exceptions to this)
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Re: Bush flying training.

#65 Post by SuperchargedRS » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:38 am

trey kule wrote:
Just because somebodies young and relatively inexperienced though doesn't mean to say they'll be a bad instructor.
Logically , that is true.
The issue is there are enough out there who are not good instructors to generalize with a fair amount of accuracy.

The problem is not so much age or experience,particularly in teaching at the ppl level.
It is attitude.
A great many of those young instructors are just passing through. Building time is their objective, not teaching their students. Sit in an instructors' lounge some time and you wont hear much talk about teaching methods or discussing how to deal with a student's training difficulty, but you will hear lots about this or that company that is hiring . Or how to fly this or that bigger, faster, shiny aircraft

What do I mean about attitude....look at the quote above. "Relatively inexperienced"..,
That is attitude...at 250 hours you are inexperienced. Period. Again maybe relative to someone with zero hours you are not, but to teach, you are inexperienced.
And again, that is not necessarily a problem, but it is an indicator of a lack of understanding about the importance of experience.

There is a real opportunity for retirees to give back, but after looking at it myself, the working conditions were just not there. (I did find a couple of very nice exceptions to this)

There's MUCH more that goes into it other than flight hours, you can have 20,000hrs flight time and be a absolute crap instructor, teaching and doing are DIFFERENT skill sets. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you're for a crap at teaching it, and vise versa too.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#66 Post by Lees147 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:57 am

My experience with flying has been very brief but I decided to fly because out of the blue I developed a huge fear of flying (quite literally in the middle of the air @ 37000 feet on around my 10th commercial flight, huge panic attack).

Where some people might try to avoid flying I ended up going down the route of getting into a tiny tin can and taking it up to the sky.

It greatly helped that my instructor was not my junior, I would have felt much worse having to get into the said tin can with a teenager/young man. Would it have been less safe? probably not, but we know that stress has huge impacts on someones ability to fly never mind learning to fly at the same time as being stressed.

I think the maturity sometimes is bigger than the age/experience itself. I've heard many stories of instructors performing power off stalls in the first flight. It takes a bit of time for people to feel comfortable being in the air and it should be a more natural slow build of confidence than the macho "look what I can get this plane to do".

Maybe this is also because of my age when learning to fly because I definitely wouldn't have been fearful or awe inspired when I was 15.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#67 Post by TheNorthman » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:20 am

The problem is not so much age or experience,particularly in teaching at the ppl level.
It is attitude
You are absolutely correct with that, and I've got to agree with you when you say most young instructors talk about which companies are hiring etc. The thing is though that doesn't mean that they're just there to milk the students out of every hour they can so that they can make their own logbooks look nice and fat.

I can only talk from my own experience, when I was a young(ish) instructor (I was 27 at the time so maybe not the very young instructors you're talking about) I worked at a flying school and with the exception of a couple of 'retired, just doing it for the fun of it types' all the instructors were relatively young (about 22 to 28).

A lot of the time we talked about trying to get airline jobs ( that and 'I'm so poor I kicked a bin down the road, somebody asked me what I was doing and I said moving house' type jokes ;) ) but that didn't mean that we weren't absolutely dedicated to being the best instructors we could be and trying to teach our students the best ways we could.

Something you've got to remember as well is that a lot of the students who are learning are young (and obviously inexperienced) as well and may prefer to be taught by someone they can relate too, i.e somebody who isn't so experienced and comfortable with aviating that they might struggle to understand why a student is struggling with learning something which to them has been incredibly easy for years.

Just as a student who is a little bit older may struggle to accept being taught by somebody much younger than themselves (only natural), a student who is quite young may struggle to be taught by somebody who is much older than themselves. As long as the instructor knows his stuff and is capable of communicating it, then the best instructor for a particular student is going to depend on the particulars of the student.

When it comes to doing 'Advanced Training' though I totally agree that as long as the instructor is capable of teaching in a good way, then the more experience the instructor has the better.
Where some people might try to avoid flying I ended up going down the route of getting into a tiny tin can and taking it up to the sky.
Good on ya for that :smt023
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Re: Bush flying training.

#68 Post by Shiny Side Up » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:14 am

Only difference in the UK is that you can initially only teach people to get their Private Pilots Licence, you then need to build up experience in instructing before you can teach people for the Commercial Licence and advanced ratings like Multi Engine and Instrument Ratings.
Actually its the same here though the words of the regulations might be different. You can't teach CPL students until you have a Class 3 instructor rating which means you have at least 330 hours total time. In practice though this is usually more since you have the solo and flight test recommends to acquire as well. I don't think I upgraded until I was over 1000 hours. But that also depends on the type of school one works for, puppy mill instructors upgrade faster than non puppy mill ones.

To teach advanced ratings (seaplane, multi and multi-IFR) you need fifty hours on type, and unless a pilot was significantly blessed as a student it unlikely they'd acquire those during their CPL training, but rather after. Now that all said, its not a lot of extra experience that one has to gain to be legally qualified to teach these things. When its often trotted out that it would benefit the instructing world to only have 1000 hour plus instructors, I'd counter that's what it should be to upgrade to the class 3. But then not to stick people in the class 4 slave route I think we'd also have to revisit the rules of direct supervision as well.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#69 Post by digits_ » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:01 pm

Shiny Side Up wrote:
Only difference in the UK is that you can initially only teach people to get their Private Pilots Licence, you then need to build up experience in instructing before you can teach people for the Commercial Licence and advanced ratings like Multi Engine and Instrument Ratings.
Actually its the same here though the words of the regulations might be different. You can't teach CPL students until you have a Class 3 instructor rating
Where does it say that ? CPL requirements just talk about instruction from a flight instructor.
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Re: Bush flying training.

#70 Post by Shiny Side Up » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:17 pm

My bad, never mind. I was thinking of something else. Class 4s can instruct for CPLs. Probably shouldn't but that's another matter. I was thinking about the ab initio requirement to upgrade.
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