Seaplane Time

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Cessna 180
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Seaplane Time

#1 Post by Cessna 180 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:40 pm

Hi,

I'm currently in commercial flight school in Ontario. I got my 7 hr seaplane endorsement in the spring and float flying is something that I was looking at doing after school. I understand most operators at looking for pilots with at least 25 hours on floats, if not 50. I would like to avoid paying for seaplane rentals up north if I can (it's quite a bit more than a 172 or even a Seminole at some places). My dad's friend owns a seaplane and I could probably rent that for the cost of fuel, but I understand most insurance companies won't insure a pilot without at least 25 hrs seaplane time. I'm wondering if he came up with me as a check pilot (with him logging the PIC time), could I log "seaplane" time? Of course I couldn't log dual time unless he was also a flight instructor.
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Re: Seaplane Time

#2 Post by North Shore » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:51 am

Pretty sure that you could log PIC in your buddy's plane, as long as he's comfortable with it.
Just don't waste your time going on long cross-countries - you can do that on wheels. The hard parts about float flying are finding and assessing the landing area as safe, and getting the landing attitude correct. So, lots of short hops to different areas of the lake(s).

Have fun, and good luck.
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Re: Seaplane Time

#3 Post by Redneck_pilot86 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:37 am

Call the insurance company and ask.

Also, you could log dual as a flight instructor rating is not needed as long as you have your ppl. That being said, why log dual if you can log PIC?
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Re: Seaplane Time

#4 Post by noon_crue » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:10 pm

Work a season on the dock first. It will give you the experience of how an operator works. And it will give you a good insight of what to expect. It's not all just flying to and from lakes. If you work for an operator that services or has their own outposts, you will be expected to do general maintenance around the camps, and be able to trouble shoot and fix issues that arise.

Where in Ontario are you doing your flight training? And where did you do your float rating?
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Re: Seaplane Time

#5 Post by Cessna 180 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:25 pm

Thanks, that's good advise. I'm worried about logging PIC time without being on his insurance. I guess if he's there, it's no big deal. However, I will ask him to give a call down to his company to check.

And I plan on working the dock. Good character building.

I'm currently training at Waterloo-Wellington in Kitchener and I got my float rating up at Georgian Bay Airways in Perry Sound.
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Re: Seaplane Time

#6 Post by North Shore » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:31 pm

Cessna 180 wrote: And I plan on working the dock. Good character building.
WTF, dude?! You built your character putting up with the succession of jobs that you had to take to earn the money to learn to fly.
You've got your CPL, now go out and use it! I had lunch this spring with a young guy who packed all of his stuff in his car, and drove until he found a job. That didn't work out as he had planned, so he quit (Gutsy move, Mav) and then drove some more until he found the one he's at now.

Settle for working on the dock if you have to, but leave your house looking for, and believing in, a flying gig!
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Re: Seaplane Time

#7 Post by noon_crue » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:45 am

Cessna 180 wrote:Thanks, that's good advise. I'm worried about logging PIC time without being on his insurance. I guess if he's there, it's no big deal. However, I will ask him to give a call down to his company to check.

And I plan on working the dock. Good character building.

I'm currently training at Waterloo-Wellington in Kitchener and I got my float rating up at Georgian Bay Airways in Perry Sound.
Pm me. I'm in town. And at the airport almost everyday.
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Re: Seaplane Time

#8 Post by upintheair_ » Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:54 am

North Shore wrote:
Cessna 180 wrote: And I plan on working the dock. Good character building.
WTF, dude?! You built your character putting up with the succession of jobs that you had to take to earn the money to learn to fly.
You've got your CPL, now go out and use it! I had lunch this spring with a young guy who packed all of his stuff in his car, and drove until he found a job. That didn't work out as he had planned, so he quit (Gutsy move, Mav) and then drove some more until he found the one he's at now.

Settle for working on the dock if you have to, but leave your house looking for, and believing in, a flying gig!
+1.

Why would you actively go out and LOOK for a ramp or dock job? Sure if after exhausting all other options to the FULL extent you can't find a flying job then go for it. But only then.
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Re: Seaplane Time

#9 Post by Cessna 180 » Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:30 pm

Maybe I came off the wrong way. I want to get the seaplane experience before I finish flight school to make myself more marketable after I'm done. I want to be flying as soon as possible. I meant more that I'm willing to work the ramp if that's what it takes to get into a plane.
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Re: Seaplane Time

#10 Post by upintheair_ » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:01 pm

Unless you want to work at Transwest, Tindi or NWA where you'll be a rampie for two years.. just try to find a flying job. Red Lake, Sioux Lookout, Manitoba, The Pas, Thompson etc. At worst you should be able to find a flying/ramp job that will at least net you 100 hours your first season. Then full time flying the next year. Try Slate Falls Air or Bamaji.
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Re: Seaplane Time

#11 Post by Cessna 180 » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:01 pm

upintheair_ wrote:Unless you want to work at Transwest, Tindi or NWA where you'll be a rampie for two years.. just try to find a flying job. Red Lake, Sioux Lookout, Manitoba, The Pas, Thompson etc. At worst you should be able to find a flying/ramp job that will at least net you 100 hours your first season. Then full time flying the next year. Try Slate Falls Air or Bamaji.
Thanks for the advise. I'm going to put those companies on my list.

Me and a friend flew to Yellowkinfe from Kitchener for our 300nm cross countries. We went and walked around the bush operators in Yellowknife and it seems 2 years on the ramp is standard. I would like to avoid that. I'm guessing the reason it's that way is because it's easier to attract pilots to Yellowknife since it has the most "southern" amenities (Walmart, Stores, Bars, Ect.) I assume?

And by NWA, do you mean Northwest Air Lease, or another company?
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Re: Seaplane Time

#12 Post by JungleMonkey » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:10 pm

Try to avoid a "dock job" if possible. Everybody works the dock anyways all the way up to and including the otter pilot. You might as well get paid to fly. Just my opinion. Even the chief pilot works the dock at small operations. If you do work the dock and the carrot never gets closer don't feel bad jumping at the first flying position offered no matter what it is. The ex employer will get over it.
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Re: Seaplane Time

#13 Post by SuperchargedRS » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:27 am

noon_crue wrote:Work a season on the dock first. It will give you the experience of how an operator works. And it will give you a good insight of what to expect. It's not all just flying to and from lakes. If you work for an operator that services or has their own outposts, you will be expected to do general maintenance around the camps, and be able to trouble shoot and fix issues that arise.

Where in Ontario are you doing your flight training? And where did you do your float rating?
So by working a non flying job you're going to build flying skills?

I don't have a colum in my logbook for hole digging or bag chucking time :mrgreen:


It's all about flying to and from lakes, rivers, etc, the more hours and the more takeoffs and landings the less likely you are to get your pax wet and the boss' plane bent.


Don't believe me, call the insurance companies up and ask how much it would lower your rates if you were really good and digging holes, chucking bags and fixing outboards. :lol:
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Re: Seaplane Time

#14 Post by JungleMonkey » Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:32 am

+1
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Re: Seaplane Time

#15 Post by SundayDriver » Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:28 pm

You could install xmas lights in Vancouver to gain experience....... :lol:
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Re: Seaplane Time

#16 Post by noon_crue » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:36 am

SuperchargedRS wrote:
noon_crue wrote:Work a season on the dock first. It will give you the experience of how an operator works. And it will give you a good insight of what to expect. It's not all just flying to and from lakes. If you work for an operator that services or has their own outposts, you will be expected to do general maintenance around the camps, and be able to trouble shoot and fix issues that arise.

Where in Ontario are you doing your flight training? And where did you do your float rating?
So by working a non flying job you're going to build flying skills?

I don't have a colum in my logbook for hole digging or bag chucking time :mrgreen:


It's all about flying to and from lakes, rivers, etc, the more hours and the more takeoffs and landings the less likely you are to get your pax wet and the boss' plane bent.


Don't believe me, call the insurance companies up and ask how much it would lower your rates if you were really good and digging holes, chucking bags and fixing outboards. :lol:

If you get a dock job, you will get some right seat time. I found that the northern operators would much rather hire a guy his second season to fly, if he worked his first season on the dock. That way they will have an idea of your work ethics. Either from working with them for a season or from another operator that you worked for. A lot of companies won't hire a kid fresh out of school to fly their airplane unless they are hard up for pilots. most guys flying worked the dock for the first year, unless they are extremely lucky.
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Re: Seaplane Time

#17 Post by SuperchargedRS » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:37 pm

noon_crue wrote:
SuperchargedRS wrote:
noon_crue wrote:Work a season on the dock first. It will give you the experience of how an operator works. And it will give you a good insight of what to expect. It's not all just flying to and from lakes. If you work for an operator that services or has their own outposts, you will be expected to do general maintenance around the camps, and be able to trouble shoot and fix issues that arise.

Where in Ontario are you doing your flight training? And where did you do your float rating?
So by working a non flying job you're going to build flying skills?

I don't have a colum in my logbook for hole digging or bag chucking time :mrgreen:


It's all about flying to and from lakes, rivers, etc, the more hours and the more takeoffs and landings the less likely you are to get your pax wet and the boss' plane bent.


Don't believe me, call the insurance companies up and ask how much it would lower your rates if you were really good and digging holes, chucking bags and fixing outboards. :lol:

If you get a dock job, you will get some right seat time. I found that the northern operators would much rather hire a guy his second season to fly, if he worked his first season on the dock. That way they will have an idea of your work ethics. Either from working with them for a season or from another operator that you worked for. A lot of companies won't hire a kid fresh out of school to fly their airplane unless they are hard up for pilots. most guys flying worked the dock for the first year, unless they are extremely lucky.
Your ethics? More like stupidity. All it proves to the employer is you will fall for the good old carrot and the stick.

If you have managed to stay in business more than a couple years, you should be able to size a applicant up rather easily over a interview or two.

I never worked the dock, nor have any of my friends, after earning our CPLs we all have been hired as pilots, not unskilled workers. YMMV
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Re: Seaplane Time

#18 Post by Meatservo » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:13 pm

I'd almost rather work on the dock for an air operator in a decent town with a nice fleet of planes to move up on, good maintenance and a variety of different customers, than fly right away for some guy with two planes and a bunch of camps. Make sure there's some kind of a plan for you to start flying soon, not just a "carrot on a stick" and there's nothing wrong with working on the dock.

Scoring a flying job right away is a cool goal, but don't go around acting like you're too good for a stint on the dock. Your pilot's license is hardly a precious commodity to these guys, and you don't want to broadcast a sense of entitlement. In other words, take North Shore's advice, but don't look like the kind of guy who listens to guys like North Shore. I could tell you some stories about him. He could have benefitted from a month or two on the dock. :twisted: :bear:
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Re: Seaplane Time

#19 Post by upintheair_ » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:58 am

Your ethics? More like stupidity. All it proves to the employer is you will fall for the good old carrot and the stick.

If you have managed to stay in business more than a couple years, you should be able to size a applicant up rather easily over a interview or two.

I never worked the dock, nor have any of my friends, after earning our CPLs we all have been hired as pilots, not unskilled workers. YMMV

Honestly, when I was looking for a job and told employers who offered ramp and dock jobs that I was looking only for a flying job I got more respect from them. I could tell. And it led to them pointing me to the right people to get that flying job. Funny how that works... had I been willing to work the ground I would probably be working for them. But since I said no, and only interested in flying they sent me to the places that had that available for a low time guy.

People. Give yourselves some credit. You have a TRADE now. A book with a stamp in it saying you're qualified to do a job. Don't let an operator tell you you're not qualified. You might be green, but still able to do the job and you learn quickly.
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Re: Seaplane Time

#20 Post by upintheair_ » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:00 am

Meatservo wrote: Scoring a flying job right away is a cool goal, but don't go around acting like you're too good for a stint on the dock.

Why not? Act like you own it and good things will happen. Think you're only good enough for the dock and guess what, you'll be working on the dock.
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Re: Seaplane Time

#21 Post by SuperchargedRS » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:09 pm

upintheair_ wrote:
Your ethics? More like stupidity. All it proves to the employer is you will fall for the good old carrot and the stick.

If you have managed to stay in business more than a couple years, you should be able to size a applicant up rather easily over a interview or two.

I never worked the dock, nor have any of my friends, after earning our CPLs we all have been hired as pilots, not unskilled workers. YMMV

Honestly, when I was looking for a job and told employers who offered ramp and dock jobs that I was looking only for a flying job I got more respect from them. I could tell. And it led to them pointing me to the right people to get that flying job. Funny how that works... had I been willing to work the ground I would probably be working for them. But since I said no, and only interested in flying they sent me to the places that had that available for a low time guy.

People. Give yourselves some credit. You have a TRADE now. A book with a stamp in it saying you're qualified to do a job. Don't let an operator tell you you're not qualified. You might be green, but still able to do the job and you learn quickly.

Exactly.



Meatservo wrote:I'd almost rather work on the dock for an air operator in a decent town with a nice fleet of planes to move up on, good maintenance and a variety of different customers, than fly right away for some guy with two planes and a bunch of camps. Make sure there's some kind of a plan for you to start flying soon, not just a "carrot on a stick" and there's nothing wrong with working on the dock.

Scoring a flying job right away is a cool goal, but don't go around acting like you're too good for a stint on the dock. Your pilot's license is hardly a precious commodity to these guys, and you don't want to broadcast a sense of entitlement. In other words, take North Shore's advice, but don't look like the kind of guy who listens to guys like North Shore. I could tell you some stories about him. He could have benefitted from a month or two on the dock. :twisted: :bear:
I'd rather spend 2 years flying then move on up and get that job at the nicer operation in your decent town.


Lol, and after a year or two of you working the dock, I'll have a year or two worth of flight experience, who gets that better job first, someone with two years of experience as a working PILOT, or someone with two years "experience" of chucking bags and washing airplanes?

Scoring a flight job right away is the whole point of getting a CPL.
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Re: Seaplane Time

#22 Post by Cessna 180 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:22 pm

Hey thanks for the tips guys. I'm going to go on a road trip right after school, keep driving until I find the right job (after making a load of calls and emails). I feel far more optimistic about finding a flying job after school now. I'm going to try and get that float experience too if I can. It's getting late in the year.
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Re: Seaplane Time

#23 Post by Meatservo » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:29 pm

My point was, there are lots of excellent exciting careers that started with a job on the dock. Getting to fly a plane right off the mark is a very exciting proposition, but just don't be disappointed if you end up working a dock job. If you get on with a good company your efforts won't go unnoticed and it's not unreasonable to hope for a check-out during your first year.

It's a gamble. You can turn down offers of employment in the hopes of finding a "direct entry" job and wind up not finding one. Just make sure you don't turn down the dock jobs in so haughty a manner that they aren't still available if you change your mind after not finding that flying job you are holding out for.

Personally, a couple of decades ago, I took a direct flying job and worked for a complete asshole. I quit after a month and went to work on the dock at another bigger company on the recommendation of an older friend who was a CL 215 pilot and I looked up to. That job turned into a flying job before the end of the winter (it was a year-round operation-rare nowadays) and I went from Cessna to Beaver to Otter to Chief pilot and so on. Maybe I could have stayed with the first company-but I never heard of anyone working for that guy for more than a couple of years and have never heard anything good about him.

Just keep your options open, is all I'm trying to recommend. Obviously a flying job right away is the standard to which we all aspired. Back when I was starting out, there was never anything other than whispered tales of "some guy" that didn't have to work on the dock. Starting on the dock was the norm.
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