Norseman question...

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ross1
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Norseman question...

#1 Post by ross1 » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:58 pm

...more research for a painting.... can anyone give some idea on what sort of load (if any) a Norseman (600 hp) might be able to depart with from a mile long lake at 6500 ASL? Let's say light headwind at 10C.

sorry...I have no access to manuals or performance references

Thanks
Ross
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Re: Norseman question...

#2 Post by oldtimer » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:05 pm

From your lake, I would say a Cessna 180 would carry about the same load. The old Norseman needs lots of room and many times depends on the curvature of the earth to gain altitude. At around 1000 ft MSL or lower, 1800 lbs with a Mk 4 on small floats and 2000 for a Mk 5 or Mk 6 on 7170s. Now double the length of the lake and you may be able to double the load. The Norseman is not a STOL airplane, it is just one tough SOB.
Go to youtube and there is a video of a Norseman on take-off in glassy water conditions somewhere in Ontario. Disappears out of camera range and is still on the water.
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Re: Norseman question...

#3 Post by Helmet Fire » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:20 pm

oldtimer wrote:Go to youtube and there is a video of a Norseman on take-off in glassy water conditions somewhere in Ontario. Disappears out of camera range and is still on the water.
This video?
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Re: Norseman question...

#4 Post by Johnny#5 » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:44 pm

wow, used a lot of lake :shock:
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Re: Norseman question...

#5 Post by NunavutPA-12 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:50 am

When I worked at Contwoyto Lake in the early 70's a Norseman dropped in on its way north to a fishing lodge on Victoria Island. They had a hose duct-taped to the wing, a drum of fuel and a wobble pump in the cabin. They were also out of sight before lifting off from the near-glassy water that day.

I know it's a tall order since I don't recall the registration, but would any of you old-timers know which Norseman that might have been?
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Re: Norseman question...

#6 Post by peterdillon » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:01 pm

Not familiar with a Norseman at 6500 ASL as we are at 1000 but we don't find it as bad as its reputation. Ours is a a MK 5 with 7170's and known as a good performer as they vary a lot depending how they are rigged. If the Beaver is loaded to max and you put the identical load in the Norseman with the same fuel range on a normal day ours will beat the Beaver off the water. As the load and temperature goes up and the wind goes down things start to reverse pretty quick. The Norseman is way faster but if you could trade the speed for lighter high lift wings you would really have something. We noticed the poor climb and higher approach speeds more than the takeoff distance.
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Re: Norseman question...

#7 Post by Siddley Hawker » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:37 pm

Ours is a MK 5 with 7170's and known as a good performer..
KAO?
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Re: Norseman question...

#8 Post by ross1 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:33 pm

Thanks... the idea was to depict a fictional Norseman departing Stanley Lake in Idaho...(nice mountains in the background) after having dropped off three men and camping gear. The consideration is with the lake being a mile long and at 6500 asl could they all come back out on the same trip? Painting's done ...working on a narrative.
Image[/url][/img]

critiques and comments welcome..

cheers all
Ross
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Re: Norseman question...

#9 Post by Bede » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:54 pm

That's gorgeous!
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Re: Norseman question...

#10 Post by J31 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:03 pm

Looks like 3 guys, their gear, and a canoe... :wink:
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Re: Norseman question...

#11 Post by Antique Pilot » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:06 pm

Siddley Hawker wrote:
Ours is a MK 5 with 7170's and known as a good performer..
KAO?
KAO is a Mark VI.

The Mark V came after the the VI. The "V" signifies "Vee for Victory" after the end of WW2.

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Re: Norseman question...

#12 Post by Antique Pilot » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:52 pm

NunavutPA-12 wrote:When I worked at Contwoyto Lake in the early 70's a Norseman dropped in on its way north to a fishing lodge on Victoria Island. They had a hose duct-taped to the wing, a drum of fuel and a wobble pump in the cabin. They were also out of sight before lifting off from the near-glassy water that day.

I know it's a tall order since I don't recall the registration, but would any of you old-timers know which Norseman that might have been?
There are 2 logical aircraft:

CF-BTC, Mk IV Norseman, operated with the Palmers out of YZF between 1968 and 1984. Aircraft is currently with the Royal Aviation Museum of Western Canada in Winnipeg.

CF-GJN, Mk VI with Cameron Bay Air Service , Edmonton, AB 1968-1975.

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Re: Norseman question...

#13 Post by NunavutPA-12 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:18 am

Thanks Antique.

I think it was grey and red, but Gawd that's a long time ago!

I do remember that they called us on the VHF to confirm the water depth before landing. It was glassy and they could see the big boulders - 30-feet down!
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Re: Norseman question...

#14 Post by oldtimer » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:50 am

ross1, that is a gorgeous picture.
The only comment is I notice you depict the airplane with flaps down for take-off which is very correct so that must be a Norseman V, the latest and best of the 3 common Marks, or models. With both the Mk 1V and the Mk V1, ailerons drooped with flaps but the Mk V used only flaps.
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Re: Norseman question...

#15 Post by phillyfan » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:33 pm

Piss poor technique on that takeoff. Should have been off in half that distance.
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Re: Norseman question...

#16 Post by Antique Pilot » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:07 pm

NunavutPA-12 wrote:Thanks Antique.

I think it was grey and red, but Gawd that's a long time ago!

I do remember that they called us on the VHF to confirm the water depth before landing. It was glassy and they could see the big boulders - 30-feet down!
Has to have been BTC that you saw. Here it is last year.
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Re: Norseman question...

#17 Post by digits_ » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:56 pm

Helmet Fire wrote:
oldtimer wrote:Go to youtube and there is a video of a Norseman on take-off in glassy water conditions somewhere in Ontario. Disappears out of camera range and is still on the water.
This video?
Is the nose always that high during TO roll on the Norseman ? Looks like it stayed in the water instead of going on the step.
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Re: Norseman question...

#18 Post by Antique Pilot » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:05 pm

oldtimer wrote:ross1, that is a gorgeous picture.
The only comment is I notice you depict the airplane with flaps down for take-off which is very correct so that must be a Norseman V, the latest and best of the 3 common Marks, or models. With both the Mk 1V and the Mk V1, ailerons drooped with flaps but the Mk V used only flaps.
You are correct. When the flaps got to 40 degrees the ailerons drooped down to 15.5 degrees. However I was lead to believe that the aileron-flap interconnect system was eventually disconnected by operators on most aircraft.

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Re: Norseman question...

#19 Post by peterdillon » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:43 pm

I really like that picture Ross. I tried to pick holes in it but other than the campfire looked a little mature for the plane to be still on the water its very accurate but it maybe that was just a testament to the woodsmen of the day. As far as your original takeoff question nobody has said you couldn't so in true Norseman fashion its worth a try but my guess would be no at that alt. Norseman and Mountains are not commonly used terms. As AP just mentioned most Norseman had the droop ailerons disconnected. To answer an earlier question ours is FQI.
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Re: Norseman question...

#20 Post by Siddley Hawker » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:08 pm

KAO is a Mark VI.
Oops. Forgot that. :oops:

BTC in Bob Cameron's back yard in YXY.

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Re: Norseman question...

#21 Post by Meatservo » Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:36 am

peterdillon wrote:I really like that picture Ross. I tried to pick holes in it but other than the campfire looked a little mature for the plane to be still on the water its very accurate but it maybe that was just a testament to the woodsmen of the day. As far as your original takeoff question nobody has said you couldn't so in true Norseman fashion its worth a try but my guess would be no at that alt. Norseman and Mountains are not commonly used terms. As AP just mentioned most Norseman had the droop ailerons disconnected. To answer an earlier question ours is FQI.
Maybe the pilot stuck around for a cup of tea before taking off. :wink:
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Re: Norseman question...

#22 Post by ross1 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:13 pm

Hello all... many thanks for the input.

"nobody has said you couldn't so in true Norseman fashion its worth a try".... I like that.

"Maybe the pilot stuck around for a cup of tea before taking off" .... yup...that's exactly what happened :wink:

Anyway...here's the narrative;

"SETTIN' UP"

The three brothers had been here once before. But then they had hiked in with much less gear. This time they were outfitted for a longer stay and wanted the canoe. But it was the extra weight of their prospecting supplies that determined it would be a whole lot easier to just fly in.

And the getting in was easy. The Norseman had touched down gently enough then just sat back in the water and slowed to a taxi speed in a very short distance. With the lake being at 6500 feet above sea level and just over a mile long however, the pilot knew that getting them back out would be a different story.

Still unspoiled, this alpine wilderness was not untouched. Besides themselves, The Hudson's Bay Company men, the gold seekers and even Hemingway had all been here before. Yet, long after the trappers and the writer were gone, the rumors of golden riches persisted. For the next four weeks the brothers will work the surrounding streams and rivers, each with wild hopes of finding their fortune.

The pilot would then return with his own more practical hopes of cooler air and a good east wind.


Again...comment, critique and suggestions always welcome...here or by PM... especially from you Norseman folks...a fortunate and rare group.

Cheers
Ross
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Re: Norseman question...

#23 Post by Meatservo » Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:53 am

I think that's just perfect. I never flew a Norseman but many's the time in an Otter I explained to fellows that getting them out might take more trips than getting them in!

I love the painting.

With their more expansive vocabulary, I wonder if the Germans have a word for that feeling I get from pictures like this: Nostalgia for bygone days that were actually before I was born.
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Re: Norseman question...

#24 Post by ross1 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:38 pm

Thanks Meat... to paraphrase Mr. Buffett.... "Yes, I am a pilot, 60 some years too late"

Ross
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