50 hour float coarses

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water hog
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50 hour float coarses

#1 Post by water hog » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:55 pm

do you think they should be allowed
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flybynight
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#2 Post by flybynight » Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:59 pm

no, thats just another way to suck young pilots pockets dry, personally i think a young pilot would be better off with a 7hr course and a multi ifr to save his ass when he/she is trying to keep his float plane out of the trees and below the ceiling doing the chicken run to all the popular northern communities 8)

a company would rather train you the way that they want you to fly, the only problem is insurance :shock:

but in the end it all comes down to what you want and what you have to do to get it, if the 50hr course means that first job then all the power to you.

Cheers and safe flying :!:
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#3 Post by Cat Driver » Sat Apr 03, 2004 8:54 am

50 hour courses should be banned, contact TC flight training and demand they do something about these courses.

It is unbelievable that anyone would be stupid enough to think that there is anything to learn after the 7 hour training for the rating.

Yes, ban all training after you get your license, great idea.

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#4 Post by smartass » Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:13 pm

flybynight wrote:no, thats just another way to suck young pilots pockets dry, personally i think a young pilot would be better off with a 7hr course and a multi ifr to save his ass when he/she is trying to keep his float plane out of the trees and below the ceiling doing the chicken run to all the popular northern communities 8)
Great idea, especially considering that half the float planes don't have IFR instruments and you're hanging 100 feet off the deck with cliffs all around when you enter the cloud. Hey lets teach the pilot how to dial up an NDB that'll save his life???
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#5 Post by smartass » Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:35 pm

Man, Flybynight and water hog have me so baffled that I have to keep writing.

Have either of you ever flown a float plane??? You're kidding... you are kidding right??? Hey here's an idea, why not make every IFR pilot get a float endorsement. You may just break out of cloud over water with props windmilling and have to ditch. You'd have a better chance if you are familiar with landing on water. Hey why don't they abolish the whole multi IFR ratings. Really it should be covered under the companies training. Or hey, why not just abolish all training. It should be the companies responsibility.

I mean a pilot with a 7 hour endorsement should be able to apply to a float plane company and have them get one of their unqualified staff to wing 50 hours of training all out of the pocket book of the small float plane companies. After all it only costs the companies $250/hr in fuel/ maitenance/ insurance/ lease payments on their beaver. They should be happy to fork out the $10,000 and 70 hours of instruction at $45/hr to have a 250 hour wonder with a 7 hour endorsement working for them.

Great thinking guys... hey either of you thought of going on the apprentice?
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#6 Post by flybynight » Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:52 pm

Smartass
listen you tool

last time i checked most floatplanes have an attitude indicator, a T&B, Altimeter, VSI, ASI, DG, and most that I'VE flown have a GPS and yeah some even had an ADF last time i checked those are IFR instruments

I've flown in shitty weather on floats at 300hrs (with an IFR) and i't helped me feel alot more comfortable then a pilot with out, no i never did a fifty hour course, of flying dock to dock. flying into clouds at a hundred feet with cliffs all around you is your choice but you shouldnt be there in the first place. last time i checked twin otters fly the circling to the water, and some planes even have little wheels on the bottom of there floats

what do you think it costs when a person does a ride on a 1900?? do you expect in the future that a pilot is going to have to do a 50hr course on one of those before a company hires him?

maybe you should start thinking :roll:
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#7 Post by Cat Driver » Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:00 pm

So lets see where this is going.

You have an idiot that loses visual contact flying floats in marginal weather ..but this idiot has an instrument rating so problem solved.

What am I missing here?
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#8 Post by CF-RYE » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:19 am

If you’re flying a floatplane with the mentality “my IFR will get me out of trouble” you’re definitely asking for it.

All an instrument rating did for me in my first year on floats was cause me to push the weather even more. In my opinion this put me in situations that I never would have gotten into if I had just respected the limitations of VFR flight in the first place. Of course there are arguments to this from some (the ones who haven’t worked that first float job), “just because I have an instrument rating doesn’t mean I will push the weather more”. Bullshit! As a new pilot you are going to do all sorts of shit that you consider “favours” for you boss including pushing the weather. Not because you are an idiot, but because you don’t have enough experience to know better and that type of environment will allow it. An IFR is just another tool, which a pilot at this stage is incapable of using effectively.

Take a fifty-hour float course and learn some valuable skills that your employer may decide not to teach you before he throws you the keys to the Cessna; it isn’t always like the flying club checkout in case some of you guys are wondering. The skills I learned in my fifty-hour course saved me 100X over my instrument training. The instrument training you receive with your commercial licence is by far sufficient. It teaches you how to get out of an emergency, while leaving you fresh enough that you will stay out of the clouds, which is perfect for float flying.
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#9 Post by cyyz » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:25 am

flybynight wrote: what do you think it costs when a person does a ride on a 1900?? do you expect in the future that a pilot is going to have to do a 50hr course on one of those before a company hires him?

maybe you should start thinking :roll:
They do require him to have that.. hence the "Only PPC'd pilots need apply"

If 50hrs guarantees you a job(flying), great. If not. You'll be building 10 50hr blocks till reach the 500 min hours most operaters require.

Some places have you fly right seat to build your time while they're ferrying customers.. :roll: That should be illegal. But if you want to buy 50 hrs and do whatever you want with them and be pic not dual/sic. Good but still sad..
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#10 Post by Cat Driver » Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:47 pm

I must be getting really stupid so help me out here.

I decide to start another float plane business, this time operating several outpost fishing / hunting camps.

So I buy myself a Beech 18 on floats and I decide to hire a very low time pilot with the bare minimums and the pilot flys with me for say 100 hours, during which time I have the pilot hand fly every minute of that time.

That should be illegal?

My employee would not learn from me?

I sure do not understand this thinking , period.

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#11 Post by cyyz » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:49 pm

during which time I have the pilot hand fly every minute of that time.
You're ancient*(in a nice way)* CD and extra 100 hours under your belt wouldn't matter to you. But I'm certain you won't be the Pic of the aircraft that has the time builder..

I'm talking about an operator that has his 500 hr pilot PIC, btw pic is precious you can stick sic time in the toilet for all I care as do many operators.

Sorry, back to the rant. So now you have hothead A, who's flying the plane, and the block-time builder is sitting beside him "watching" "building time"..

I'm sure the "captain" will be a bit busy trying to teach and explain anything to the cargo/time builder..

http://www.eaglejet.net/

Here if you want to build time.. Or lets just tell WJ to have their FO's pay to "fly" right seat to build time so they can become Captains..

*And yes, I'd love to fly with someone(like yourself) that's experienced that would be more beneficial, I'd consider the flying "free" and the experience or instruction as the hourly price*
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#12 Post by smartass » Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:25 pm

flybynight wrote:Smartass
listen you tool

last time i checked most floatplanes have an attitude indicator, a T&B, Altimeter, VSI, ASI, DG, and most that I'VE flown have a GPS and yeah some even had an ADF last time i checked those are IFR instruments

I've flown in shitty weather on floats at 300hrs (with an IFR) and i't helped me feel alot more comfortable then a pilot with out, no i never did a fifty hour course, of flying dock to dock. flying into clouds at a hundred feet with cliffs all around you is your choice but you shouldnt be there in the first place. last time i checked twin otters fly the circling to the water, and some planes even have little wheels on the bottom of there floats

what do you think it costs when a person does a ride on a 1900?? do you expect in the future that a pilot is going to have to do a 50hr course on one of those before a company hires him?

maybe you should start thinking :roll:
Oh... flybynight... I am such a tool... I didn't realise that you are a genious because of my own stupidity.

You see I thought a pilot with a 7 hour endorsement would only be able to get a job flying a cub or a citabria with a turn and bank and airspeed indicator. How dumb am I!!! I didn't realise that he'd be hopping into a twin otter. And yes you are right a T&B and ASI are IFR instruments but I always thought that if you didn't have an attitude indicator you were pretty much pooched anyways. And flying into cloud is flying into cloud, I thought when you weren't IFR you weren't supposed to do it and when you are, you have to fly above the MOCA and be able to do an approach to clear vis again lest your eggs get scrambled. I didn't realise that it would be perfectly safe with 15 hours of instrument to enter cloud in shitty weather on floats at 300hrs.

Oh and I thought that insurance companies would want someone with more than 7 hours before they'd insure them. I didn't realise that an operator could hire someone with 7 hours.

And yet another royal mistake. I thought that a company with a 1900 could afford to do a 1.5 hour PPC with their income. I didn't even think that an operator with a tiny two seat puddle jumper could fork out $15,000 for a 50hr PPC.

I AM SUCH A TOOL...

Please help me understand they ways oh master float commander.


If you came any closer I'd have kicked you dumbass
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#13 Post by Cat Driver » Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:31 pm

CYYZ :

Thanks for the compliment, but if you flew with me you would be paid the top rate for whatever job you had.........even whores don't work for nothing....

I truly believe that any operator who expects any employee to work for free should be put on a cotton field in the south and made to work like the slaves of a couple hundred years ago.........maybe that would give them the message.

By the way four of us are partners in our company and we all get paid exactly the same wage...............I just make the fuc..rs do most of the flying in return for me being resonsible for the bottom line.

And the stupid bastards just love it... :D :D

Cat.
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#14 Post by flybynight » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:21 pm

smartass

why dont you grow up and come back with a dignified response rather then what a ten year old would respond with, your the type that TRY and make himself look better than everyone else, your the one that is always talking when everyone else is listening, and touching when he should be looking, that attitude is going to bite you in the ass and you should really stop giving pilots a bad name

and as for being master float pilot, far from it and i learn something new everyday if not two things, just like everyone else, maybe you should start
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#15 Post by smartass » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:32 pm

A dignified response??? And I thought you called me a tool who should start thinking.

Make a stupid comment and you'll get a stupid response, make a dignified comment and you'll get a dignified response. Make a comment that holds all the wisdom of a 10 year olds mind and you'll get a 10 year olds response. Are you really trying to bite my ass?? How am I giving Pilots a bad name???? Your intelligence is far worse than my attitude. I'd rather have a smartass then a retard behind the controls.

What part of my response did not make sense? What part of your comments make sense? Every single point you made had the intelligence of lemming. If there were cliffs where you live, you'd have jumped off!

Did you learn that you're comment was ludacris yet?

Thanks for the lecture, you are helping me understand the ways.
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#16 Post by cyyz » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:41 pm

smartass wrote:I'd rather have a smartass then a retard behind the controls.
So I guess airlines don't need to fill quotas?
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#17 Post by smartass » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:44 pm

You seem to have a history of putting yourself on a high horse everytime someone writes something that makes you look really dumb:
snapped, maybe if you actually read my post properly you would relize that WAS the point i was trying to get across maybe you should open the eyes and close the mouth, so give YOUR head a shake

Cheers
10 posts and not one of them make sense. Really dignified oh leader. Instead of simply coming back with some dumbass answer telling me to grow up why not argue your point. I guess it's because you never have a good one so you use the old copout ....grow up before I start to cry like a little bitty 10 year old. Do you want a kleenex???

I normally wouldn't go on such an attack but your tool comment made me snap. Why call someone a tool when no-one on here agrees with what you said. Why not just go crawl in a hole before you find a cliff.
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#18 Post by flybynight » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:48 pm

getting under your skin is easy, and as for being a retard, diplomas tell me different,
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#19 Post by Cat Driver » Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:59 pm

Flybynight :

Diplomas??

You mean you hold diplomas that are related to aviation?

Tell me more.

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#20 Post by ahramin » Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:33 pm

Since when does a diploma guarantee brains?

A Doctorate does not even guarantee brains.
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#21 Post by cyyz » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:29 pm

Ahramin are you saying my PhD in Basket weaving doesn't mean anything?
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#22 Post by ahramin » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:49 pm

I am saying a PhD in anything does not impart wisdom. I should have my math PhD in several years (hopefully). All that means is that i can do math. Just like a PhD in basket weaving says that you can weave baskets. :)

So i do not think that someone with a dozen diplomas should consider themselves safely out of reach of being stupid.
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#23 Post by groo » Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:01 pm

I think that the whole 50 hour courses came out of float companies asking for more than the 7 hour minimum. They meant 300 hours swamping not paying for another 50 hours with an instructor. Good for them for cashing in on on the winfall.

However. My experience is that the 185 requitements are much more than 50 hours (probably more like 400) in a twin otter or swamping on a s/otter or beaver and then an internal transfer to a 185.

Before you look for a float job, look carefully at the minimums, it's a season, not a course.
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#24 Post by Cat Driver » Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:16 pm

Groo :

Do you think that 50 hours with an experienced sea plane pilot has no value?

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#25 Post by smartass » Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:42 pm

I guess the days when going on your first solo in 3 hours weren't such a bad idea then. If it only takes 7 hours to learn how to fly a float plane, then I guess we were right in handing out Air Force wings as soon as the plane came back all intact. Why not scrap all this 200hr commercial crap and let whoever makes it back get a licence.

Groo for your information an insurance company won't even insure a private float plane for a pilot with less then 15 hours. It's not the commercial operators setting these time restraints, its the insurance companies. 50 hours is the minimum insureable requirement for a commercial operator on floats. This is due to 7 hour float plane pilots continually swimming to shore and wanting a new airplane so they can go flying again.

I'd like to see all of you seven hour promoters pile into your average float plane and then take a flight out on the west coast. It wouldn't be long before your opinion would be wiped clear off this planet. I would never volunteer to fly in a float plane without dual controls with a pilot under 15hours and to let him take my plane and go flying on his own with my customers??? At least 50 and judging by the present requirements of other operators and insurance companies basing requirements on crumpled heaps of metal, between 250 and 500 to start in a limited capacity.
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