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Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:28 pm
by '97 Tercel
But is the pay really going up?

Wilderness Air outta Port Hardy ad...
Pre Requisites
Canadian Commercial Pilot License – valid Medical
Seaplane Rating – 50 hrs on floats.
Preference will be given to applicants that ;
Coastal Float time an advantage
Have more than 50 hrs on floats
Have Tail Dragger Experience
Are available to work rotating schedules, as some time away from base may be required.
Have an active lifestyle and are in good physical shape as the job can be physically demanding.
Are willing to live on the North Island.

50 hours on floats to fly 185 and Beaver on the West Coast!

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:48 am
by TailwheelPilot
There have been a lot of 703/704 jobs posted this year, many which have been posted multiple times. I wonder how many companies are going to be short-staffed this summer.

Some Twin Otter/1900 postings that do not require MPIC time (which I do not recall seeing previously or very rarely), although I think this job ad is more surprising given prior ads for positions on the west coast and the experience they call for. I suppose this is as low as they can go before increasing pay or figuring out how to make do with fewer pilots.

Great time for advancement in the bush/703/704 world, it seems. I have a good seat already, but some of these postings make me wonder about other options that are suddenly available this summer (and what their terms & conditions are...).

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:42 pm
by JCFloats
Following the float industry... looks like interesting very times...

Aussie pilot with conversion to Canadian... dream job to fly floats on the BC coast...

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:47 pm
by Cat Driver
It would seem that there has been more pilots looking to fly airline than any other kind of flying and the float flying industry is starting to find it difficult to find pilots.

It should be interesting to see where all this ends up.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 6:30 pm
by TailwheelPilot
I see the latest is that Discovery Air no longer has the 75 MPIC in their latest C337 job add, the previous two postings (March 1 & 30, and previous ones) claim it is a hard, non-negotiable contract requirement. I guess the need for pilots is starting to outweigh the 'hard' contract requirements (rather than remuneration going up).

It will be very interesting to see where things end up for float flying, and how next year shapes up. I think more of the not-quite-entry-level jobs (like the Discovery C337) will be harder to fill as the jobs one step above start looking for lower experience levels to fill seats. I am also curious how high it will go: will King Airs, Twin Otters and 1900s be affected next summer?

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 6:47 pm
by Cat Driver
Maybe this would be a good time for me to come out of retirement and start doing 50 hour float plane courses .

With my Cub. :mrgreen:

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:52 pm
by BushRatt
Cat, I hope you do.
Time in a Super Cub, would be great time for anyone just getting started.
( or any Cub, for that matter.)

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:24 am
by Rowdy
For 100k a season with health and travel benefits, a pension plan, I'd be back in a seaplane. :rolleyes: Until that happens..

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:49 am
by cdnpilot77
TailwheelPilot wrote:I see the latest is that Discovery Air no longer has the 75 MPIC in their latest C337 job add, the previous two postings (March 1 & 30, and previous ones) claim it is a hard, non-negotiable contract requirement. I guess the need for pilots is starting to outweigh the 'hard' contract requirements (rather than remuneration going up).

It will be very interesting to see where things end up for float flying, and how next year shapes up. I think more of the not-quite-entry-level jobs (like the Discovery C337) will be harder to fill as the jobs one step above start looking for lower experience levels to fill seats. I am also curious how high it will go: will King Airs, Twin Otters and 1900s be affected next summer?
Your undertone of of skepticism toward Discovery Air Fire Services is not warranted. This was in fact a hard demand by the client, who pays the bills, not a choice by the company. It is possible in these changing times that their client has finally been persuaded to drop that requirement, I know it's been tried in the past. However, it could simply be a miss on the job ad. I worked for a branch D.A.F.S, and it simply was a great place to be with great people!

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 7:17 pm
by TailwheelPilot
I actually appreciate the clarity of the DAFS job ads regarding contracted experience level. My point was primarily that I have seen their ads for a few years, with the MPIC requirement, and suddenly it is gone. Maybe someone got convinced to drop it after March 30. Maybe they cannot find enough pilots for this season with the MPIC requirements. I doubt it was overlooked since the TT requirements changed to 750TT with ATPL exams written, but perhaps. I do not know. Either is a win for pilots looking for jobs.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:17 pm
by Tanker299
..

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:17 am
by goingnowherefast
Would be a real win if pay increased. That job already has pretty good WAWCON for a seasonal VFR job, but everybody's always hoping for further improvement.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:44 pm
by marakii
Cat Driver wrote:Maybe this would be a good time for me to come out of retirement and start doing 50 hour float plane courses .

With my Cub. :mrgreen:

Is the 50 hour float plane course worth it to do to spruce up the log book or do you think next year 2018 it will be harder to find float pilots for positions across the country . I loved the cub on floats, remember my first 35 hours on floats were on the cub. Amazing floatplane and too much fun!

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:06 pm
by Cat Driver
Is a fifty hour float plane course worth it?

If you already have 35 hours or more on floats I would say no.

But there is nothing wrong with going to a well known float plane instructor who is also in the charter industry and buying five or ten hours of training and getting their opinion on your aptitude and if the instructor thinks you are worth hiring you can use him/her as a recommendation when you are looking for a job.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:24 am
by valleyboy
There is an irony here. The demand is draining the mum and pop operations to the point they might start shutting doors unless the owners qualify for chief pilot and ops manager positions. It's impossible to meet TC's requirements. This in turn dries up the pilot pool for the level 2 carriers who are getting drained by level one. With all this a cut rate airline starting up out of Hamilton. So how do you fill front seats with the salaries that are usually tied to this type of airline. The qualifications will be ATP 1500 hours, every pilots' college dream. Damn, where are the pilotless aircraft when you need them.

There is also some talk that school enrolment is down, no doubt the word is out about working conditions.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:15 am
by Meatservo
It's actually sad and interesting to watch. People used to name themselves after their roles in society. They used to pass their professions or trades to their eldest children. Now a "job" is just a way to get money. Kids used to build model aeroplanes and "dream" about flying. Kids don't care about cool machines anymore. Building a model plane these days, assuming you can get your face unstuck from the screen long enough, is about as pointless as building a balsa model of an office cubicle and "dreaming" of being an HR "team leader" or whatever the billions of drones in business pants are doing.

Hardly any children are passionate about anything other than the internet anymore. Nowadays, having a "passion" for anything real other than team sports or the arts is a liability. For years the industry has lived off the stored fat of young people being "passionate" about it, harvesting hundreds of suckers every year to work at jobs with sub-standard wages and conditions, because part of the remuneration was always the thrill of being a pilot.

Nowadays, if you still find "being a pilot" thrilling, keep it to yourself. People join the airlines early because flying is "a way to get money", not a life, and the earlier you sign up for the giant pyramid scheme that is the seniority-based airline compensation program, the quicker you get to the top where the money is. Why accept risky work? Why live in an out-of-the-way shithole? There's no social credibility to be earned from having adventures anymore- no respect to be earned from having impressive skills! The youngest generation of workers has been raised by the internet, where a series of "selfies" tells the world what they need to know about you. How are you going to earn validation from the internet community if you waste your time at a low-paying job learning the archaic lore of how to fly a plane manually? What is going to earn more "likes" from the "snap chat" or "face book" community: A "selfie" taken in a checked shirt in the woods standing on the float of a little plane, ("LOL what an adventure-when will you have enough hours to be a commercial pilot") or a "selfie" of yourself in a uniform sitting in the button-studded flight deck of an airliner? ("OMG CONGRATULATIONS! You made it!!")

If you want young people to voluntarily give up the online adulation, free clothes, easy living and guaranteed eventual big-bucks of a system that only rewards seniority and ass-kissing, in return for a life where they actually have to do something, take responsibility for their own safety, and learn skills that don't result in instantaneous social-media applause, you've got ?what? to offer them? Most of them wouldn't be able to function outside of a system that rewards minor achievements with checkmarks in boxes and eventual guaranteed movement to the next level, like some kind of "Pokeman" game. Getting chewed out by a crusty chief pilot for putting a hole in a float would send anyone under the age of 25 running to a PTSD online chat-group.

"Bush flying" is doomed.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:58 pm
by Cat Driver
"Bush flying" is doomed.
Just like the rest of society if things keep going the way they are.

The brain is being replaced by a smartphone.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:51 pm
by youhavecontrol
"Bush flying" is doomed.
I see opportunity in what's been happening. I'm pretty sure I could be completely naive, but after serving my time on the oil patch for years, I'm not intimidated by the negativity towards my generation because I feel I've overcome it (At 30, I guess I'm technically a millennial?). Right now I'm putting in my time as an instructor, but with my previous work background, I can't imagine bush flying being any more dangerous, dirty, negative or labor intensive than the work I've already crawled through.

On a side note, with the fear of complete automation in aircraft, bush flying to me, just might be the last place in aviation to see pilot-less aircraft. I have always viewed bush flying as the most organic form of flying (if that makes sense). It sucks to hear of companies struggling to find good pilots, but it makes the possibility of me finding an ideal flying job so much more attainable. I have a sneaking suspicion that flying in remote areas, on floats, gravel or skis, might be the last place where true 'stick-and-rudder' pilots are absolutely vital... and I want to be among them.

If only it wasn't so expensive to get that float time, and didn't involve travelling somewhere completely different to get it, I'd do it right now.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:39 am
by HansDietrich
youhavecontrol wrote:
"Bush flying" is doomed.
I see opportunity in what's been happening. I'm pretty sure I could be completely naive, but after serving my time on the oil patch for years, I'm not intimidated by the negativity towards my generation because I feel I've overcome it (At 30, I guess I'm technically a millennial?). Right now I'm putting in my time as an instructor, but with my previous work background, I can't imagine bush flying being any more dangerous, dirty, negative or labor intensive than the work I've already crawled through.

On a side note, with the fear of complete automation in aircraft, bush flying to me, just might be the last place in aviation to see pilot-less aircraft. I have always viewed bush flying as the most organic form of flying (if that makes sense). It sucks to hear of companies struggling to find good pilots, but it makes the possibility of me finding an ideal flying job so much more attainable. I have a sneaking suspicion that flying in remote areas, on floats, gravel or skis, might be the last place where true 'stick-and-rudder' pilots are absolutely vital... and I want to be among them.

If only it wasn't so expensive to get that float time, and didn't involve travelling somewhere completely different to get it, I'd do it right now.
That's a very poetic way of putting it. Should you ever get to do "bush flying", you'll quickly notice that automation is very much present there (for the most part) and very few operators have aircraft without some basic A/P and if it doesn't, you'll quickly scream for one. There's nothing wrong with automation as long as you get to click that red button from time to time and practice your stick and rudder skills.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:55 am
by TailwheelPilot
I recently read there was supposedly going to be an Chinese cargo-carrying UAV flying in 2019 or 2020 to deliver cargo to remote villages in Tibet. I also saw that the UAE's octocopter(?) taxi is about to fly outside of a testing area. Depending on their success we may find bush flying will soon see UAVs entering the market.

For markets that are already well-served the cost of a new UAV may or may not be too great to justify replacing bush planes and pilots. I imagine for many new or under-served markets (ie Tibet) the cost of a UAV would be acceptable.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:19 am
by Meatservo
HansDietrich wrote:
That's a very poetic way of putting it. Should you ever get to do "bush flying", you'll quickly notice that automation is very much present there (for the most part) and very few operators have aircraft without some basic A/P and if it doesn't, you'll quickly scream for one. There's nothing wrong with automation as long as you get to click that red button from time to time and practice your stick and rudder skills.
Tell me Hans, does the “bush flying” you are talking about involve going to paved airports in a retractable-gear turbine-powered landplane?

You keep using that word... I’m not sure it means what you think it means.

I’ve never heard a bush pilot “screaming” for an autopilot. It must be a very elusive and lonely cry indeed.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:45 am
by HansDietrich
Meatservo wrote:
HansDietrich wrote:
That's a very poetic way of putting it. Should you ever get to do "bush flying", you'll quickly notice that automation is very much present there (for the most part) and very few operators have aircraft without some basic A/P and if it doesn't, you'll quickly scream for one. There's nothing wrong with automation as long as you get to click that red button from time to time and practice your stick and rudder skills.
Tell me Hans, does the “bush flying” you are talking about involve going to paved airports in a retractable-gear turbine-powered landplane?

You keep using that word... I’m not sure it means what you think it means.

I’ve never heard a bush pilot “screaming” for an autopilot. It must be a very elusive and lonely cry indeed.
Turbine yes, rg yes, no paved runways bud (or extremely rare). Hard core Northern Flying... believe me, you need some sort of skill to do that. Gravel, dirt, snow, ice etc. What are you trying to imply? That you need to fly a clapped out 172 and land on a tree to call yourself "bush"? I got all the Bush I need. I'm married to a European woman.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:00 am
by Meatservo
I’m just not sure I’ve ever heard anyone I know “screaming for an autopilot”. I guess dirt, gravel, snow and ice on your runway can really cramp your style with those little wheels...but “hard core”? I don’t know.

I think pound-for-pound if they could invent some way to keep the inside of the plane warm on the ground that weighed the same as the control box, servos, and little red buttons of your auto-pilot, most bush pilots would scream for that instead. As it stands now, I know of very few operators that would spring for either one however. They’d rather use the available weight as cargo or fuel.

I don’t think you can call it “Bush” flying if all you do is fly over it.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:19 am
by valleyboy
There is no wheel in "bush" in Canada anyway - i have flown as far north as the pole and never considered Arctic flying as "bush" - no fucking trees - but seriously - airport to airport never - off strip was as close as it comes and even then back to the airport to either a gps or ILS approach. Bush to me was before my time when pilots drew their own maps, drained the oil at night and had to walk to town for gas when they ran short. I flew float and ski aircraft in 60's and early 70's and I thought bush flying was dead then.

Re: Wow, requirements really going down...

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:22 pm
by rigpiggy
HansDietrich wrote: That's a very poetic way of putting it. Should you ever get to do "bush flying", you'll quickly notice that automation is very much present there (for the most part) and very few operators have aircraft without some basic A/P and if it doesn't, you'll quickly scream for one. There's nothing wrong with automation as long as you get to click that red button from time to time and practice your stick and rudder skills.
I don't know where you have been working, but the only time I have had an autopilot is where the CARs required it, or the client demanded it.