$2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

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altiplano
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$2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by altiplano » Tue May 29, 2018 8:15 am

Shaking my head looking at a recent job ad...

A couple thousand a month to live on a remote reserve and fly a 206? And not be able to have a beer on your day off?

Maybe as a brand spankin new CPL, and even then *MAYBE* 5 year ago... but they want 250 on floats too...

Times have changed... I remember all those years being f*cked by some operators or having zero courtesy afforded by some others while out on the road looking for work... Sure there were/are some good ones, but it was the exception.

I hope everyone out there today working at getting a start or staying in the Air Taxi game makes them $pay$ well and treat them well... don't accept wages like this. They need you more than you need that job... there are so many choices out there.
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by flyzam » Tue May 29, 2018 8:28 am

Your head is in the clouds mate. $3k to fly a 206?? Sounds like a great gig for a newish pilot.

That's 36k a year. How much does an FO on encore, sky regional or anywhere else get?

For f sake air Canada only pays 19k more a year and they will have a ton more hours and experience.

Fir a laugh tell us how much do you think it is worth to fly a 206??
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by FL-280 » Tue May 29, 2018 8:49 am

500$
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altiplano
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by altiplano » Tue May 29, 2018 9:19 am

flyzam wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:28 am
Your head is in the clouds mate. $3k to fly a 206?? Sounds like a great gig for a newish pilot.

That's 36k a year. How much does an FO on encore, sky regional or anywhere else get?

For f sake air Canada only pays 19k more a year and they will have a ton more hours and experience.

Fir a laugh tell us how much do you think it is worth to fly a 206??
Why don't you tell me what it's worth to live on a reserve? I don't care about the type - Cub/206 whatever...

I say it's not $24-36K / year...

Anyone that takes that is selling themselves short. 500 hours and 250 floats? Lots of better jobs out there paying better.

Your AC comparison is ridiculous, but since you bring it up... AC starts about $60/hour... plus a pension, plus benefits, plus expenses, plus live wherever you want, and a pretty quick climb up to $150-200/hr, eventually $300/hr... big difference it had a future...
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by telex » Tue May 29, 2018 9:46 am

altiplano wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:19 am
flyzam wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:28 am
Your head is in the clouds mate. $3k to fly a 206?? Sounds like a great gig for a newish pilot.

That's 36k a year. How much does an FO on encore, sky regional or anywhere else get?

For f sake air Canada only pays 19k more a year and they will have a ton more hours and experience.

Fir a laugh tell us how much do you think it is worth to fly a 206??
Why don't you tell me what it's worth to live on a reserve? I don't care about the type - Cub/206 whatever...

I say it's not $24-36K / year...

Anyone that takes that is selling themselves short. 500 hours and 250 floats? Lots of better jobs out there paying better.

Your AC comparison is ridiculous, but since you bring it up... AC starts about $60/hour... plus a pension, plus benefits, plus expenses, plus live wherever you want, and a pretty quick climb up to $150-200/hr, eventually $300/hr... big difference it had a future...
But you didn't say what it is worth. Put a dollar value up. You know what it isn't worth so surely you must know what it is worth.
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by altiplano » Tue May 29, 2018 9:58 am

If you disagree and are happy to live on a reserve for 24K then that's your view... you should apply.
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by telex » Tue May 29, 2018 9:59 am

altiplano wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:58 am
If you disagree and are happy to live on a reserve for 24K then that's your view... you should apply.
But you didn't say what it is worth. Put a dollar value up. You know what it isn't worth so surely you must know what it is worth.
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by flyzam » Tue May 29, 2018 10:10 am

altiplano wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:19 am
flyzam wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:28 am
Your head is in the clouds mate. $3k to fly a 206?? Sounds like a great gig for a newish pilot.

That's 36k a year. How much does an FO on encore, sky regional or anywhere else get?

For f sake air Canada only pays 19k more a year and they will have a ton more hours and experience.

Fir a laugh tell us how much do you think it is worth to fly a 206??
Why don't you tell me what it's worth to live on a reserve? I don't care about the type - Cub/206 whatever...

I say it's not $24-36K / year...

Anyone that takes that is selling themselves short. 500 hours and 250 floats? Lots of better jobs out there paying better.

Your AC comparison is ridiculous, but since you bring it up... AC starts about $60/hour... plus a pension, plus benefits, plus expenses, plus live wherever you want, and a pretty quick climb up to $150-200/hr, eventually $300/hr... big difference it had a future...
If you think 500 hours is a lot then that gives me an indication of where you are coming from.

No, those days of working those jobs are 20 years behind me. But when I did start out, I was earning far less to fly a 206 on floats and they were still some of the best years in my life flying. Adventure, freedom and flying. Loved it.

All depends on your attitude doesn't it?

Also you will damn well save more money at the end of the month on 3k living in a reserve than you would earning 5k flying YYZ.
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by altiplano » Tue May 29, 2018 10:32 am

Where did I say it's lots? 500 hours with 250 float is a low time pilot of course. But it's probably a guy with a season or part of one somewhere... it's not first job type of hours...

It's supply and demand... there was a time when that's what you had to do... that time isn't anymore I hope guys don't sell themselves short

You probably don't know where I'm coming from or where I'm at.

I was there too close to 20 years ago, had a great time in some places, not so much a great time in others, saw friends die in others... often while making poverty level wages.

Attitude? The attitude that I'll make the equivalent of the poverty level to advance my career and live in the middle of nowhere full time? That should be an attitude we put in the past... If this was $36K to live in the interior or on the coast flying out of a small town, that's one thing... living on a fly in only dry reserve should pay more.

Nurses aren't living in reserve for $30K.

What does a first year rig pig make to do rotations in and out of camp? No experience required. No skills required. Just labour.
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by flyzam » Tue May 29, 2018 11:31 am

altiplano wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 10:32 am

You probably don't know where I'm coming from or where I'm at.
Well I'd say that you were started flying early 2000's, had 1000 hours in 2005, lived in BC, flew for Fort Langley , and for many years trying desperately to get out of flying small planes. You have for many more years been moaning about how much canadian pilots get paid.

You're now at AC and still moaning.

Shame you never got to work in Africa, you would have liked it and it would have given you a whole new perspective on salaries over here for pilots under 1500 hours. Or even Australia where not long ago at all, a Chieftain Pilot needed 2k hours and was earning $1600 a month.

That aside, yes I agree with you, Canadian salaries are shite, always have been and always will be whilst we live in a country that barely maintains a duopoly of airlines.
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by digits_ » Tue May 29, 2018 12:56 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:15 am
And not be able to have a beer on your day off?
In a lot of discussions this comes up as a big negative item. I don't get it. Are you that dependent on alcohol to enjoy life?
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by altiplano » Tue May 29, 2018 2:41 pm

"still moaning"

Hardly...

I just want to see up and coming guys realize the opportunity available and not sell themselves short - moving to camp for $2K a month might be an adventure, but it's a job, and no other profession would pay that to go live in such a situation... why pilots?

The fact that a company is on here with an ad at this point, with the season well under way, tells me that they're the ones in need... used to be a company like this would have a pile of resumes, I guess they don't since they're advertising, but they still want to pay like it.

You're thinking in the past... I was there too, I saw the high requirements and minimal wages... and it's good to remember that for perspective... 1000's of hours to get the PA31 left seat, 5000 hours to get right seat on the turbine, you made it if you got on the Dash8...

Anyway, my comment is more directed about supply and demand... if you disagree, that's fine... But right now there is demand and that should drive the pay higher, from the 500 hour VFR guy on up.
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by flyzam » Tue May 29, 2018 3:20 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:41 pm
"still moaning"

Hardly...

I just want to see up and coming guys realize the opportunity available and not sell themselves short - moving to camp for $2K a month might be an adventure, but it's a job, and no other profession would pay that to go live in such a situation... why pilots?

The fact that a company is on here with an ad at this point, with the season well under way, tells me that they're the ones in need... used to be a company like this would have a pile of resumes, I guess they don't since they're advertising, but they still want to pay like it.

You're thinking in the past... I was there too, I saw the high requirements and minimal wages... and it's good to remember that for perspective... 1000's of hours to get the PA31 left seat, 5000 hours to get right seat on the turbine, you made it if you got on the Dash8...

Anyway, my comment is more directed about supply and demand... if you disagree, that's fine... But right now there is demand and that should drive the pay higher, from the 500 hour VFR guy on up.
Drive up Air Canada wages and the rest of the market will follow. $55k for the first 4 years is nothing short of a crime.

You're in a position to and that would now be the use of your efforts to help increase Canadian aviation salaries.
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by North Shore » Tue May 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Don't like the terms/conditions, then don't apply...simple.

FWIW, I really enjoyed my time at SLS. That was 19 years ago, mind...
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by altiplano » Tue May 29, 2018 5:35 pm

I'm not suggesting it's not a good operator in terms of how they run the operation otherwise.

What did they pay per month 19 years ago?
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by atphat » Tue May 29, 2018 5:42 pm

flyzam wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 3:20 pm
altiplano wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 2:41 pm
"still moaning"

Hardly...

I just want to see up and coming guys realize the opportunity available and not sell themselves short - moving to camp for $2K a month might be an adventure, but it's a job, and no other profession would pay that to go live in such a situation... why pilots?

The fact that a company is on here with an ad at this point, with the season well under way, tells me that they're the ones in need... used to be a company like this would have a pile of resumes, I guess they don't since they're advertising, but they still want to pay like it.

You're thinking in the past... I was there too, I saw the high requirements and minimal wages... and it's good to remember that for perspective... 1000's of hours to get the PA31 left seat, 5000 hours to get right seat on the turbine, you made it if you got on the Dash8...

Anyway, my comment is more directed about supply and demand... if you disagree, that's fine... But right now there is demand and that should drive the pay higher, from the 500 hour VFR guy on up.
Drive up Air Canada wages and the rest of the market will follow. $55k for the first 4 years is nothing short of a crime.

You're in a position to and that would now be the use of your efforts to help increase Canadian aviation salaries.
AC pays 55K a year for the first 4 years?? What else do you make up?
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by flyzam » Tue May 29, 2018 6:14 pm

atphat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:42 pm
[]

AC pays 55K a year for the first 4 years?? What else do you make up?
Only go on what I am told. Feel free to enlighten me, what the base pay is?

My understanding is $56 / hour x MBG x 12

Either way it is crappy pay.
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Last edited by flyzam on Tue May 29, 2018 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by atphat » Tue May 29, 2018 6:46 pm

I'm on Pprune?
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by flyzam » Tue May 29, 2018 6:52 pm

atphat wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 6:46 pm
I'm on Pprune?
Ha! Sorry about that, didn't read the user name correctly thought I was still talking with the OP.

I'm curious though. What is the base pay for an FO at AC. Whenever anyone discussed it where I work it was using the numbers above. They incorrect?
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by altiplano » Tue May 29, 2018 7:17 pm

Might as well get it right... It's an hourly rate: Years 1-4 about $60/$65/$75/$85. Flat across all types for FO's - you're right it's too low.

900 or 930 hour/year guarantee, there are some other contract guaranteed amounts too, but that's the bulk of the guarantee. Of course most do much better.

I do advocate for better and keep voting "NO"! Just like I advocate here to guys coming into this.

There is no other professional, or labourer even, who would relocate into a remote locale for peanuts like this... there is a shortage in our profession now, average income in this country is over $50K, it's significantly higher in Northern areas and Territories, make the operators pay accordingly. It's not 2002 anymore.
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by flyzam » Tue May 29, 2018 7:31 pm

We are all on the same page when it comes to turbo prop up to widebody pay in Canada.

Something is inherently wrong with the system where that type of pay is given for experienced professionals especially considering the cost if housing, living and education continues to sky rocket and companies continue to try to push wages down.

Probably because the can neither outsource nor automate it.
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by altiplano » Tue May 29, 2018 7:53 pm

flyzam wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 6:14 pm
Regardless, looking at your history of moaning about flying both here and on pprune for over 13 years now, I'm not going to be caught up in your downward vortex of depression.

Go take a Xanax and do something productive.
I gotta say too, while I'm flattered you have been reading up on me all these years, and please, disagree all you like, or don't like it, don't read it, I don't care... but I certainly don't make it personal the way you have with your veiled insults.

Airing out about industry news on here is a laugh, and I believe I try to have purpose to what I contribute (usually), sure, sometimes I'm wrong, but I have maybe even managed to help out a few guys from time to time, or give some insight where I can.

I'm secure in my productivity and mental health, thanks...
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by altiplano » Tue May 29, 2018 7:57 pm

flyzam wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 7:31 pm
We are all on the same page when it comes to turbo prop up to widebody pay in Canada.

Something is inherently wrong with the system where that type of pay is given for experienced professionals especially considering the cost if housing, living and education continues to sky rocket and companies continue to try to push wages down.

Probably because the can neither outsource nor automate it.
I'm glad we agree on something, but I don't understand where you draw the line on advocating for better pay?

Is it just for piston singles that guys should work for poverty wages? Or guys forced to live in BFN?

But we should get more for the King Air guys? Or does it need to be a 705 turboprop? Do you have to live in YYZ or YVR?

I think all boats should rise together.
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by flyzam » Tue May 29, 2018 8:09 pm

You're right, consider me chastened and I apologise.

For me 3k is more than a fair wage for a single young person living away from home. As mentioned I'm sure they save more than me each month flying widebody.

They are also considerably less experienced and require higher over sight

As one gets older and lives closer to the majors with a family and commitments more money is needed just to stay afloat.

Ultimately it is up to the individual. I chose those jobs not because I had to but I loved that type of flying and did it for the experience, both personal and professional and not the money. The money was more than enough for me.
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Re: $2-3K/mnth to live on a reserve...

Post by altiplano » Tue May 29, 2018 9:07 pm

Thanks.

"Enough".... I hear you... enough is relative to circumstance and situation... I am fortunate that I always lived within my means thus I made "enough", it doesn't mean I wasn't underpaid though. Same here in this situation.
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