Downwind Takeoff and Landings in DHC-2

[Rowdy]

Thats deffinatly a good read.. and something for everyone to look through before the start of the next foat season. I know of an op. that sits everyone down before the first machine goes back in the water andgoes through a bunch of accident reports and tells a few stories of the buddies lost and aircraft they'd helped recover etc. Always sobering.. but they have a solid safety record... so i'm going out on the limb and saying that this has helped. Well.. that and the 6hr checkouts..

[phillyfan]

Ya the step taxing is a thing of it's own. You tell a guy "hurry, hurry" "but don't step taxi". Next thing you know the guy lands long trying to avoid step taxing and save a couple minutes and puts it into the breakwall.
Everytime I check a guy out who came from somewhere where it was not allowed, they have me squirming in my seat watching the shore come at me.

I can usually tell when a guy asks "why would you ever need to takeoff downwind in a Beaver" That they are pretty new to the game. I suppose if all body's of water were round and clear of rocks and surrounded by flat ground, we would never have to deal with crosswinds in a Beaver either. Sadly however, they are not.

[oldncold]

d/w me limit 7kts otherwise taxi though have never flown on the wet coast in the beav'

full flap only once in operations pipestone river nothern ontario 96 before the musselwhite mine start wind 15 gusting 25 knts out of the ne hot july day/ river current / and rocks lots of rocks! if you did set it in correctly

full load in empty going out . however was advised previously that it was a tight spot . did 4 passes ovr the spot to ensure that it I felt comfortable that it could be done. would never got out of that spot with a full load. unless it was a fling wing /lol

[Blue Side Down]

When it comes to something like a dw takeoff in a beav, this is my advice: if you have to ask about it, you're not ready to take that particular leap of faith. When you're experienced enough to pull off the feat, you won't have to ask about it. Chill, be happy, and take things slower. The ten minutes you save just aren't going to matter come freeze up.

[Blue Side Down]

doubled up oops.

[chesty]

you are only going downwind to save time and keep customers happy Why would you put the extra abuse on the engine, prop and espically the poor floats. you guys crack me up. Pay for some of the maintance bills before you do all these downwind take offs/ landings. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Bushav8er]

you are only going downwind to save time and keep customers happy Why would you put the extra abuse on the engine, prop and espically the poor floats. you guys crack me up. Pay for some of the maintance bills before you do all these downwind take offs/ landings. Just my thoughts on the matter.

? Aside from the prop how is downwind TO/landing hard on maintenance? Floats? Does your boat suffer any more abuse running back home than it did heading out? From some of the manoeuvres I've witnessed the floats take a bigger beating from docking than from any downwind TO or landing. Does the engine run any worse when flying downwind or on a zero wind day? The only possible damage maybe to the prop if the wind is too strong. Once on the step the aircraft speed far exceeds any wind negating that. Landing it doesn't even factor in as power is off or down as is the speed. Its also no worse than the initial addition of power to start the run, even into wind and then there are the days when the wind is up and even into wind spray will be a factor.

If you are not comfortable don't do it but I also suggest that some people haven't been in the situations where it was actually required and those situations do exist.

As for the step taxiing, sure, sometimes its not required but again there are those where it is; lakes with lots of rock/shoals where running high in the water is safer than riding low. As with all operations, watch the power, be smooth and watch the temps. Do what you can to keep the spray (prop damage, any damage) to a minimum. More guys wreck engines from shock cooling in their show-off stunts and engine mishandling then any downwind operation(s).

Fly bush commercially long enough, for other than tourists where the lakes are normally large and open, and you'll come across these situations.

[chesty]

Floats are far from a boat! When you take off downwind, you are on the water a @#$! of alot longer than if you were into wind therfore less time your floats are getting pounded (less leaky rivits, no broken or cracked bulk heads etc.). As for the engine, how long do you have to keep high power settings for a downwind take off and intial climb compared to an into wind takeoff? It does cost money when you abuse airplanes!

[Lost Lake]

Floats are far from a boat! When you take off downwind, you are on the water a @#$! of alot longer than if you were into wind therfore less time your floats are getting pounded (less leaky rivits, no broken or cracked bulk heads etc.). As for the engine, how long do you have to keep high power settings for a downwind take off and intial climb compared to an into wind takeoff? It does cost money when you abuse airplanes!

You're on the water a @#$! of a lot longer? Leaky rivets? Broken or cracked bulkheads? If you are taking off with waves that are creating that kind of damage it does't matter which way you're going, you shouldn't be taking off period. As for the engine you are probably taking off downwind with a reduced load. If you think low power taxiing is good for an engine, talk to your AME. Step taxiing? I do it all the time. You reduce power on approach. Temps drop. I like to get on the water asap, within reason. Step taxi to a reasonable distance, then taxi in. Again, if you have enough experience flying these planes (read thousands of hours) you don't hurt anything. The job gets done safely and quickly.

[Bushav8er]

Floats are far from a boat! When you take off downwind, you are on the water a @#$! of alot longer than if you were into wind therfore less time your floats are getting pounded (less leaky rivits, no broken or cracked bulk heads etc.). As for the engine, how long do you have to keep high power settings for a downwind take off and intial climb compared to an into wind takeoff? It does cost money when you abuse airplanes!

You're right. Floats are built using the same construction techniques but are stronger overall. (I'm not only a peelot but was maintenance too) We are not talking about 20 kts gales and white caps when taking off downwind. Five kts on the nose or tail makes little difference and doesn't add significantly to the time on the run. Rivets leak more from dragging bottom and scraping the heads than wave pounding. Once airborne you should be at max continuous, which as the name implies, can be run 'continuously' but never is (is it?). Turbine is another story with even fewer worries.

Good on you though for knowing your limits and for safe guarding the aircraft, sounds like you fly safely.

[trey kule]

philly wrote

Ya the step taxing is a thing of it's own. You tell a guy "hurry, hurry" "but don't step taxi". Next thing you know the guy lands long trying to avoid step taxing and save a couple minutes and puts it into the breakwall.
Everytime I check a guy out who came from somewhere where it was not allowed, they have me squirming in my seat watching the shore come at me.

What a perfect example of the logic people use to rationalize something. Allow me to paraphrase.

There are two scenarios..A person can land close to the shore, which they will not be able to do with accuracy causing the wise ones to squirm in their seat, or
They can safely, land far from shore and step taxi in.
How could anyone not chose the second option.

Well, because there are other options. Allow me to expand
1. Land far from shore, as in the second scenario, and taxi slowly in. Let the engine cool down nicely, give yourself a bit of time to evaluate the current, wind , docked aircraft and make a plan...I know I know, you do it 10 times a day and can do it in your sleep. Many cant.
2. Learn to land with accuracy and allow a bit of fudge(just in case your personal skill assessment is in error that day)...taxi slowly.

Gosh..but my suggested options dont allow you to demonstrate to your pax your exceptional step taxi skills, they dont make a routine day a bit more exciting, and the lazy engineers will have even less work to do if I cool down engines properly. Besides, how will all those low time, new pilots just checked out revere me if I fly like a little old lady (mods..please dont pull this thread for discrimination against old ladies..)

As CP's, and older senior pilots we must lead by example. And that means in many cases we have to restrain using our exceptional and awsome skills so that the younger and less experienced are not encouraged to try them.


there is a time and a place for step taxiing. But trying to imply that it is somehow safer is foolish and the ratioanale of the show off. I stand by what I origianlly posted. Step taxiing is not a normal procedure that should be used. And when it starts to become part of a routine landing procedure for pilots, it is time to be looked at and evaluated.

I apologize for the bluntness, but I want to make certain that every young new float pilot that might read this.gets the message. The old guys have enough experience to make their own decisions and hopefully it is flight condition based and not ego based.

[Bushav8er]

Good post trey kule. Step taxiing is like full flap, a rarely required skill.

My main point is to train the new pilots to be proficient in ALL the skills, emphasizing engine care & handling, aircraft safety, then explain that these skills are rarely required and give some examples.

I keep running across new pilots that say 'thats the way I was told to do it' without ever knowing WHY. It makes them 'mechanical', they can fly safely, within the 'normal' course of events. I prefer to tell them, show them, have them do, the AFM allowed range of operation then explain that this is how we do it though, for this/these reason(s).

[trey kule]

I should state catagorically, that this penchant for step taxiing by so many when it is not necessary in the cirumstances is a real sore spot for me.

I understand exactly what you mean bush8. It seems many of these "float courses" are given by people with a little more instruction time than operational times, and teaching step taxiing and turning is emphasized..after all, it is a fun thing to do. I too, have heard new pilots say...well that was the way I was taught to do it....I agree, it is scary sometimes.

and I have read on previous threads pilots commenting that flying on floats was great because you always landed into wind!!!!! Love a job like that. The fact is that when we are flying 6 -7 hours a day, making 20 takeoffs and landings, it is easy to forget that we are there to do the job as safely , as routinely, and, as economically as possible, and introduce a little spice into our flying.. particularily if you have 5000 hours of float time, and some young pup with 50 hours on type is pretty much doing the same as you are perfectly...so we start doing unnecessary things like step taxiing, and pretty soon the youngin's ae into the game.

Or worse, when you are standing at the dock having a chat with a youngin' on the foolishness of his just doing a step taxi with the background noise being thenhissing and popping of the old engine, one of the seniors guys pulls the same stunt. It happens.

Anyway, I have ranted on long enough. Good luck to all in the 2011 season

[xsbank]

I can't think of anything wrong with step taxiing - what is wrong is shock cooling. One place I can think of is a river landing when its constricted - land where there's room and step-taxi in closer. I step-taxied from the inlet side of Owikeno Lake most of the way to Bella Coola in fog and drizzle once - if I hadn't I'd probably still be there. Watch out for fish boats! I also step-taxiied into Kincolith when I got caught in a sudden heavy snow storm.

Step-taxi is an essential and if properly done, safe exercise in a float plane. It needs practice.

Lots of places on the coast where a down-wind takeoff was a lot safer than a long downwind taxi with a load where you risk nosing over because you can't slow enough, followed by a scary turn and a takeoff towards the shore/an obstacle/subsiding air.

[DHCdriver]

I've read all of the posts and I have to say I agree with some and disagree with others. I've been in the float business long enough to know that not very often we leave the dock under gross weight. So why would you take off downwind, it extends your takeoff run,takeoff power is on that much longer. It is just not good airmanship. We have been taught this from day one! So if you look at it from the junior pilots eyes watching you from the dock, you know these guys look at you for guidance and your expierience to help them grow into better pilots. So one day with there limited experience are going to try it probably on a hot day. Usually the outcome is not good. Sorry for all the ranting just had to say my 2 cents. Happy flying.

I know that in some circumstances step-taxing is required but I wouldn't make a habit out it.Thanks.

[xsbank]

As long as you observe your engine limits, why not? The fact is, there are places on the coast where taking off into wind is simply not an option. Try some of the harbours where if you don't go downwind you will hit boat swells or places where the water is smoother behind a tombolo or a spit but its a downwind departure. Taking off downwind to avoid a tide rip. Even going downwind to avoid rocks/currents/logs in a river.

Sorry to sound rude, but not all of us who flew out here/there were deranged or feckless; the above is one of the reasons that you couldn't get hired on the coast without first getting some experience gained inland somewhere else (in my day - who knows now?).

Sounds to me like float flying is a dead art...

[Lost Lake]

Gotta agree with XS Bank. This thread has shifted a little from the original question/concern. We are not talking about instructing, we are talking about safe, efficient flying. I step taxi a lot. |In my opinion a lot of the time I do it is because after 4,000 hr on floats, I would rather land sooner and safer than greasing it into the dock. I don't think it's cool to step taxi. I sometimes feel embarassed by it, but, I've never holed a float or hurt an airplane. In my time, I've landed short in almost every shitty situation there is. Proper step taxi does not hurt the engine. Same with taking off down wind. I'd rather run the engine (within prescribed limits) for a few seconds extra in the right situation. As a CP, I make sure the pilots do as I say, not as I do. If low timers are doing stupid things someone's not doing their job. Proper training at the right time in a young pilot's career should make him a better pilot.

[Cat Driver]

To be a proficient seaplane pilot one must be proficient in both how to safely take off down wind and how to safely step taxi.

Definition of PROFICIENT
: well advanced in an art, occupation, or branch of knowledge.

[twotter]

Come on now Cat..

What do guys like us know about float flying? LOL.. I read this and it reminds me of the discussion years ago about landing with "Landing flaps" in a Beaver. I've personally never had a problem with the tailwind when it makes sense. I guess the biggest problem is knowing when it makes sense. We used to take a 30kt quartering tailwind to do the southbound landing in the bowling alley in Male. That was a -6 of course and it would be unlikely you would want to do that with a -2 or -3 but it was doable in that situation with that airplane. A beaver will land quite nicely with a 15 or so kt tailwind and if space and water conditions are good, then why not? Everyone should come and watch what goes on in the middle arm of the Fraser river every day. Into wind, down wind, cross wind. Sometimes at pretty high rates but it is obviously doable and safe.

Anyhow, I guess we should maybe leave this to the experts. Too bad we couldn't get these young guys out for a couple hours training to show them what the airplane they fly is actually capable of.

Cheers

[cdnpilot77]

Scared myself silly with a downwind takeoff in a 180 this past summer, now I know my limits with my 500hrs on floats. As I gain experience I will be able to comfortably expand my personal envelope, but was very glad to make the mistake I made in that airplane vs. the -2, where I might not have been able to learn from it with my limited experience