Unlocking or even cracking your door for take-off/landing

[tedcuthbert]

Can't help but notice the number of people who have drown, or nearly drown in upset floatplanes over the years. In many cases, potential rescuers couldn't get to them as the doors were locked from the inside. I've started to keep my door unlocked during take-off/landing (late 70's Cessna 172), sure, it sometimes pops open a bit, but you get used to it, and just disregard & not get distracted by it. I'm interested to know others opinions on this.

[single_swine_herder]

I never did it in flight as a matter of routine, but on each and every landing it was as natural as raising or lowering the water rudders to pop open the door to make for a quick exit.

[black hole]

Had this discussion with a few others. Seems that some think that the door is part of the structure of the plane; and that you want all the structure you can get in a mishap?

BH

[iflyforpie]

No Cessna singles that I am aware of have structural doors (except the 350 and 400 perhaps).

Usually the restrictions for flying with them removed are aerodynamic rather than structural.

If a crash is strong enough to deform the cabin, the doors will simply pop out. The failure point is usually the hinges, which can be damaged even by a strong breeze if the door is left swinging.

Given that most people survive the initial impact with water, but drown trying to egress, I'd say the risk of lower structural integrity is acceptable.

[CamAero]

What I don't like is the risk of losing a piece of cargo.

I know of an engineer's tool box lost out of a Beaver where the cabin door popped open on landing. It's still down there. There have even divers look for it with no joy.

It also punched a sizeable three-corner hole the top of the float on the way out.

[sarg]

No Cessna singles that I am aware of have structural doors (except the 350 and 400 perhaps).

Usually the restrictions for flying with them removed are aerodynamic rather than structural.

If a crash is strong enough to deform the cabin, the doors will simply pop out. The failure point is usually the hinges, which can be damaged even by a strong breeze if the door is left swinging.

Given that most people survive the initial impact with water, but drown trying to egress, I'd say the risk of lower structural integrity is acceptable.

I believe that most of those people are knock out either during the crash or by unsecured cargo, making the doors a mute point. This was the reason TC mandated shoulder harness installation a number of years ago.

[Beefitarian]

Well, sounds like another reason I would have never made it as a Commercial pilot. I thought I would secure all the cargo. I guess the boss would have had to get rid of me for taking too long to get going.

I'm shocked it's acceptable to risk a sizable three-corner hole in a person or maybe just their leg. Or is it presumed because people are soft, they would just get a sizable three-corner bruise?

How should I calculate the position on the arm for objects that are sliding around the cabin, as long as the door stays closed, or should I skip the weight and balance so we can just get going?

[trey kule]

What I don't like is the risk of losing a piece of cargo.

I know of an engineer's tool box lost out of a Beaver where the cabin door popped open on landing. It's still down there. There have even divers look for it with no joy.

There is a rather simple solution to this problem(and actually is required to be safe and legal)....though it might be you have not seen it as you are worried about losing cargo.......


It is an intersting question and I am not sure anyone will have a definitive answer. When I flew floats I always left the doors closed on the theory if I got knocked out the cabin might not flood as fast...Never had to find out if that was a good theory.
Unless it is really a safety issue, you are going to make your pax stress levels increase if you are the only pilot doing it...And as many float pax fly in them all the time, they notice things like a pilot opening the door prior to landing.

I always , immediately after landing opened my door, undid my seat belt..,,,and most importantly, took off my headset and put it out of the way.. But it had nothing to do with survival and everything to do with the odd time you have to move really fast when docking...Taking off the headset was a priority...dont ask me how I learned that...but thank god it was before every pax had a digital camera or a cell phone with a camera.

I think this is one of those do what you think best things...I am still of the opinion that to many new float pilots keep trying to invent the wheel, so to speak, if you are flying a plane that has a door lock, it might not be a bad idea to unlock it .

[trey kule]

stupid computers.....double posted it..I blame it on TC

[Liquid Charlie]

[krm2185]

If you go upside down in a float plane it will very likely not be anticipated and happen very fast. A GOOD shoulder harness that will be inconvenient to wear but essential if you over at higher speeds and life jackets that are easy to find and get to, not the vacuum packed small yellow in a bag kind but the non vacuum packed so they will float either on the surface or at least in the plane. Also stuff in the back secured WELL in strong containers behind a good net. All this is more or less common sense but not always followed.
One last thing survival skills and equipment needs to be the best available, working, and usable. If you need it you will need everything and all of it working NOW. Marginal equipment gives you a false sense of security and kill you if you ever get into a situation that requires it. Lastly take the training to get out of a submerged plane.

I now know all this from personal experience after 30 + years and thousands of hours float time. The model of plane I started float flying on 30 + years ago nearly got me after we went inverted on the water at take off speed. Take care out there and don't assume anything.

[xsbank]

MOOT point...

[1000 HP]

All good points, but just remember that if your door is unlatched not to use the reverse. If you do accidentally forget and use the reverse your door will flip open. This would be a very bad time to stick your head out the door and then push forward on the throttle. At that point the door will slam on your head and you may have a nasty dent or worse. I know...

Personally, I always land with the door closed. One Beaver I flew (CFOCP) had a door that would fall off if lifted while opening. The boss-man always told me that if I dropped it I'd be going to get it. The water is always more shallow by the docks...

[Liquid Charlie]

Personally I can't even believe that people would actually unlatch a door before landing - next will be a parachute thread --

I knew a guy who did not wear a seat belt (in flight) -- notice the past tense --

[Cat Driver]

I come from an era before anyone understood anything about safety issues when flying float planes, we just trusted to luck to keep us alive.

Can anyone here post some links to address these training and new safety procedures we knew nothing about?

I am curious to know if I ever flew some of the airplanes that I could have opened the door before landing on the water.

[Siddley Hawker]

Cat you've been around so long airplanes didn't even have doors back then.

[Cat Driver]

Hi Siddley, did you ever get to fly the Gipsy Moth on floats?

Or maybe one of the Pitcarin Autogyros that Leavens Brothers operated in the early fifties in Toronto?

[just curious]

Thanks Cat, I remember one of the autogyros and the Fouga Magister in the Leavens Hangar. Which I suppose makes me old. Sadly, I was hoping to be old and wise.

As to the subject sat hand, KRM2185 has it right.

• Tie stuff down
• Use your harness, make sure your Cessna seat latches work.
• take a dunker course
• Brief your passengers very thoroughly
• if flying a 206, if it doesn't have an emergency rear door release, don't place anyone you care for in the back.

I left the doors close all the time. I never wore a vest. If I had, I would have used one of those air force style ones. My chief pilot Norm Wright flew around with me for a long time being very critical of my every landing. That, for me was of far more benefit than a northern legend, vest, or lucky rabbit's foot.

[seasonaldriver]

just curious has it correct.

One other thing. Learn to keep calm and hold your breath for a long time. It's what got me out of the back door in an inverted 206 one bad day.

[Siddley Hawker]

Never got to associate with those types Cat, more's the pity. Back in the day Toronto would have been the far west for a guy used to Blanc Sablon.
On another tack, I did have the seat pins on a 185 on wheels let go on me once. Fortunately my legs were long enough I could still reach - barely - the rudder pedals and kept the sucker on the runway.