Gravel tips.

[sissyphus]

I am flying on gravel and am teaching a new Captain the subtle ways of gravel ops. I was wondering if I could mine the vast experience of AvCanada for some helpful hints.

We are operating a Citation Ultra with a gravel kit onto 4000' gravel runways.

So far I have to impart:

- Take this very seriously
- Taxi as slow as possible
- Always turn into wind
- Be prepared to overshoot if anything looks awry
- Stay away from the edges
- Have many "outs"
- Read the AFM on gravel ops like a bible
- Do a thorough walk around before and after every landing.
- Fly overhead for accurate condition report. Trust your eyes and experience

Anybody care to share some helpful hints. thanks


M

[cdnpilot77]

-Once you are moving do your very best not to stop if you need to move again, keep the wheels turning
-don't blindly trust a rwy condition report especially from a non-pilot, check it for yourself
-don't park on a pad if you are going to be staying for more than 10-15minutes
-be mindful of people/airplanes when turning on the ramp and powering up to make the turn

[Groundloop]

I have to ask why not to park on the pad? Is there a reason other than courtesy.

[cdnpilot77]

Nope just courtesy.

[Colonel Sanders]

Citation Ultra ... onto 4000' gravel

Not sure what your typical Vref is (110?) but that's
not a very long runway, and not much in the way of
braking.

You'd better be precisely on speed, on glidepath. Too
fast or too high (or worse, both) means you don't touch
down in the right place. Overshoot!

[trey kule]

Do a thorough walk around before and after every landing

I have to ask...How do you do a thorough walkaround berfore you land?

I am puzzled. You are flying a multi million dollar machine, and as CS mentioned into the edges of its perfomance envelope, and you are asking for advice on how to check out a Captain on the machine? Something does not make sense here, particularily with advice like ...treat the AFM gravel ops as a bible. That is an odd bit of practical advice.

[ettw]

I have no experience with jets on gravel but I still think parking downgrade is a good idea and take note of the forecast winds ie. overnight. Better to park downwind and power out into wind the next day.

I'm guessing the wing protects from FOD during ground ops.

Cheers

ETTW

[sissyphus]

Thanks for the input.

I mean " do a thorough walk around before and after every flight " sorry.
Read the AFM like a bible. I do it all the time. A little piece everyday, regardless of how awesome I think I am, every time I gain insight or learn something.

I posted this to find some insight as to why my new pilot isn't having any fun doing a very fun job. I thought maybe there might be some insight from experienced pilots that might ring true for this guy and give him some traction to move forward.

Thanks for the input.

Fly safe.

[FlyGy]

I've only flown small singles so I have no idea if this transfers up to a jet or not.

Pulling back on the yolk during taxi to decrease weight on the nose gear to reduce the likelyhood that it will sink into soft ground.

I was gonna mention lifting off and flying in ground effect asap, but I suspect you're doing that already.

[sissyphus]

It's amazing how much the soft field technique from the 152 days come into play. Fundamentals are key.

[Donald]

It seems strange that you are already operating into gravel, now checking out a new captain, and you need to solicit advice online??

The best gravel-specific advice so far came from yourself:

- Read the AFM on gravel ops like a bible

That and:

-Once you are moving do your very best not to stop if you need to move again, keep the wheels turning

The rest of the good advice would apply to all ops, not just gravel.

[trey kule]

I am not trying to be contrarian here, but I think some of the helpful hints being posted, although well intentioned, do not pertain to gravel ops in a jet. Maybe the OP is just being kind and not mentioning that..I would hate to think they actually dont know that some of the advice did not apply...particularily when they are a training pilot.

Read the AFM like a bible. I do it all the time. A little piece everyday, regardless of how awesome I think I am, every time I gain insight or learn something

At first blush this does look like superb advice, and particularily as you have incuded your humble attitude as a subtle reminder to anyone who would disagree, but ....and there is a but....
Some airlines, who operate two crew airplanes have found that the bible reader tends to be a poor participant in CRM situations, and crew cooperation suffers.. If you have an unhappy pilot being checked out, it may not be him that is the problem..just saying as I dont know the facts.
A far better solution, again, as is done by the airlines is to take one section of the AFM (in this case gravel ops), and before the first flight of the day review it as a crew...It eliminates the humble know it alls , and levels the cockpit experience gradient.. Takes 15 mins a day... Everyone is up to speed on that procedure, and can act as a crew.

I have to tell you that if someone started a check ride with me telling me to "take it seriously" or have "many outs", I would wonder about their experience and capability. Sounds like you just finished up as an instructor at an FTU......you are, I expect due to the machine you described, not checking out a 200 hour CPL, but an already trained and experienced jet pilot with time on type.

Quite frankly, your original post sounds like something a new, totally inexperienced FO would be asking to try and learn more about this particular type of operations..

Anyway, I will back off and let all the good abvice flow.....

[tbaylx]

Alot of the advice here is fine for a prop aircraft but really has no application for a Citation with tail mounted engines...

Keep moving park downhill etc is all designed to avoid power applications and pulling rocks into a prop. A Citation has higher tail mounted engines that won't pull gravel into them unless you are static and pulling some excessive thrust. Taxiing slowly, turning into wind etc doesn't really make any difference assuming you aren't taxing and turning at 15kts etc. Its nice to park into wind for cooler starts and avoiding exhaust being injested into the cabin, but really doesn't matter that much unless the wind is really blowing. Not really sure what you mean by "outs"? You either have the conditions necessary to operate safely into the strip or you don't. Assuming you operate the aircraft professionally with adequate reserve fuel, alternates and fly stabilized approaches you have all of your "outs" built into your operations manual.

Running a jet off gravel is mostly taken care of with a gravel kit. The biggest worries are runway conditions due to higher approach speeds and landing distances required. Really it depends mostly on who the airport operator is. From a pilot perspective here's what you need to do to operate a jet off a gravel strip.

1- Get accurate and up to date runway surface condition reports, make sure the airport operator knows what he is doing and provides timely surface condition reports and maintains the runway.
2- Watch your crosswind vs CRFI tables carefully. If you have a significant crosswind and the runway surface isn't prepared properly it's going to get sporty in winter months. If the airport operator doesn't provide CRFI reports there had better be someone there who can give accurate runway condition reports to you before you go and knows what he is talking about. I would never operate a jet into a gravel strip without knowing what the runway conditions are, especially in winter and/or wet conditions. A fly overhead will tell you nothing about actual conditions, other than if it has snow on it or not. Not even worth the jet A to bother with a flypast. You need an accurate surface condition with CRFI or equivalent before you depart.
3- I'm assuming there are some sort of performance calculations run for your take off data to get flap settings and V speeds..typically with a short gravel strip you will be quite restricted in takeoff weights and use a higher flap setting than normal, v1 speeds will be lower than normal. Soft field prop techniques have no application here to a jet..if its an actual 'soft field" you won't be operating into it as you'd never get out.
4- Operate the aircraft as per the manufacturer's recommendations. Stabilized approaches are key. On a short strip you can't be high and fast, and you better have touched down on speed by the 1000' markers. No need to drop below a glide slope, just run your performance calculations and fly an accurate approach. 4000' probably isn't that short for a Citation but you can't be trying to float a landing on to be smooth. Plant it firmly between 1000'-1500' and if aren't down by 1500' go around and try it again.
5- If the aircraft has reverse thrust, limit the amount applied below 80 kts. unless you are running off the end of the runway of course.
6- Apply take off thrust smoothly, stabilize the engines first then run them up to takeoff thrust once you are moving.
7- Look for gravel damage to the aircraft on your walk around...typical areas that get abused are flaps, belly of the aircraft and fan blades.

Again its all about the runway surface condition being properly maintained and reported and flying accurate speeds and profiles. The rest of the ramp stuff mentioned above doesn't apply much to a high tail mount engined jet.

[Lost Lake]

Better still, just use a twin otter!! That's what they were built for.

[Northern Flyer]

tbaylx. You pay taxes on the whole runway. Why not use it? Touch down on the threshold.

I have never seen a gravel strip that reports a CRFI. Good luck with that one.

Inspect the bottoms of your flaps behind the gear, this is where you will get the bulk of your damage on that aircraft

[Donald]

I have never seen a gravel strip that reports a CRFI. Good luck with that one.

You may wish to check the RSC for an airport served by a sched jet operator, for example CYCB, CYCO, CYOA, etc.

[tbaylx]

tbaylx. You pay taxes on the whole runway. Why not use it? Touch down on the threshold.

I have never seen a gravel strip that reports a CRFI. Good luck with that one.

Inspect the bottoms of your flaps behind the gear, this is where you will get the bulk of your damage on that aircraft

Performance figures are based on touching down at the 1000' markers..if you drop below the slope on a jet you stand a good chance of dragging your main gear through antenna or lighting, or removing it completely on the threshold (a la Buffalo Airways accident in Diavik several years ago http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 20020828-0 ), nevermind if the weather is crappy and you are flying a 3 degree slope all the way down, why would you destabilize the approach at the last second and dive at the runway, good way to have a nasty hard landing or a tail strike in a jet. Fly the slope and touch down where you are supposed to.

There are several gravel strips that report CRFI in the arctic, some of which are mentioned above. If an actual CRFI isn't available then the airport operator should be able to give you a decent runway surface condition report over the phone or radio.

or use a Twotter it might take you 3 days to get wherever you are going, but you can land on just about anything. Love that aircraft.