Float Plane Standards

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scotothedoublet
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Float Plane Standards

Post by scotothedoublet »

Must have been a slow news day...

Insurance costs not high enough? If this TSB investigator gets his way here's a new operating cost. Seems like overkill to me, but I haven't spent much time on the H2O.
Ottawa urged to upgrade float plane standards
By DARCY HENTON

Monday, June 20, 2005
Updated at 7:01 PM EDT

Canadian Press

EDMONTON -- A Transportation Safety Board investigator is blasting Transport Canada for its claim that it has no authority to make float planes safer.

Bill Kemp says the federal department could require float planes flying in Canada to be equipped with escape hatches -- either doors that can be jettisoned or pop-out windows -- if it wanted.

"I just don't buy that at all," said the Edmonton-based investigator.

"They can set whatever regulations they deem necessary. They are passing the buck as far as I am concerned."

At least 37 people have drowned in float planes in Canada over the past two decades because they couldn't escape from submerged cabins.

Last week, a Transport Canada spokeswoman said the department has no authority to order modifications to Cessna or de Havilland Beaver float planes because they are not made in Canada.

The department noted it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to make the changes or the U.S. Federal Aviation Authority, which received a copy of the TSB letter on the issue.

But an FAA spokesman said the U.S. regulator will not act without a formal request from Canada and it has not received one.

The TSB has pointed out repeatedly that the doors on the aircraft are difficult to open. Often the wings fold over them on impact.

One survivor, Frank Holman, of Red Deer, Alta., is meeting with Transportation Minister Jean Lapierre in Ottawa tomorrow to press for changes to make the aircraft safer.

Mr. Holman escaped from the cabin of a Cessna 185F after it flipped on landing on the Talston River in the Northwest Territories a year ago.

He and the pilot squeezed through a broken side window after the plane turned upside down in the water, but two other passengers, including his son, Bruce Holman, of Calgary, drowned.

The grieving father said he doesn't understand why Transport Canada can't ensure that float planes are safe.

"To think that you can't do anything is ridiculous," he said. "That's what I want to discuss with Transport Canada. Why can't they build in some other safety features if we feel people are dying unnecessarily?"

Transport Canada spokeswoman Lucie Vignola said the department continues to address the problem through awareness and education.

She said modifying the design of an aircraft is not a simple exercise.

"There have been suggestions to make the windows bigger to be able to get out of them more easily," she said. "Making them bigger could have some other impact on the aircraft."

There's also a concern that pop-out windows might pose a safety concern if they inadvertently popped out in flight, she added.

Ms. Vignola couldn't point to any planning the department has done on the issue despite concerns expressed by the TSB over nearly two decades.

"It's never very quick," she said. "That's unfortunately the system that we're in."

Cessna has said the company is always working to make aircraft safer, but a spokeswoman couldn't say if anything is being done to modify doors or windows for more rapid egress.

The company did not respond to telephone and e-mail queries.

Mr. Kemp noted that Beech 18 aircraft were fitted with escape hatches when they were put on floats more than five decades ago.

He suspects Transport Canada doesn't want to order modifications because of the costs.

But he said modifications could be phased in over five years and be aimed at only aircraft that carry paying passengers.

Mr. Holman said Transport Canada should embark on the necessary changes before more Canadians die needlessly.

"I think they are death traps," he said. "Look at the people that are drowning in almost every one of these accidents."
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Post by FLOATER »

With 24 years of float flying under my belt....I do agree that comm.float planes should have a emergancy hatch like the otter&beech 18.I'm also starting to wear a life jacket when flying floats.Try holding on to the pouch with the life jacket inside as you are fighting to exscape from a mangled,sumurged aircraft.As a aircraft operator I will pay the extra cost.
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Post by RVR12 »

Personaly, I apreciate it VERY much when an operator has the safety of their pilots in high esteem... very important for floaters, cause one drink in the lake could be too many...
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Post by twotter »

Last week, a Transport Canada spokeswoman said the department has no authority to order modifications to Cessna or de Havilland Beaver float planes because they are not made in Canada.
This has to be the best line in the whole thing.. I guess Transport Canada has not figured out yet that the Beaver was actually made in Canada.. :shock:

Way to go TC... You've gone up another notch in my estimation.. :lol:

I can't wait for Cat Driver to see this!!! :twisted:
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Post by Cat Driver »

Hey Twotter..........

" This has to be the best line in the whole thing.. I guess Transport Canada has not figured out yet that the Beaver was actually made in Canada..

Way to go TC... You've gone up another notch in my estimation..

I can't wait for Cat Driver to see this!!! "


Surley I am not the only one on this forum that clearly understands just how pathetic any organization becomes when they hire all the losers in society that can't make it working in the commercial world.

Why would we be suprised when stupid remarks are made by stupid people? :mrgreen:
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Better Idea

Post by 1000 HP »

How about giving all the passengers an AK-47 and then if there is a crash, they can blast their way out :D Oh yeah, the government has this gun control issue :shock: , not to mention that the operator would of course have to have a permit to carry such weapons of mass destruction :roll:
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Post by water wings »

ok...what the hell does she think the "C" in DHC-2 stands for...never mind... i know a couple of c- words that would fit the bill.

i am considering getting one of those "betty blue" may west lifejackets to wear next time i go floaty... the yellow ones, oddly enough need to be kept in the damn pouch to be certified by - who else - TC.
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Post by w squared »

Hmmmm....

I'm not flying floats, but my thought on the matter of life jackets would be that the commercially available ones that inflate via a CO2 cartridge when you yank on a handle would be a good choice. That way, you've got the freedom to swim in any direction you want during an egress from a capsized aircraft, but have your buoyancy "on tap" as it were.
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Life Jackets

Post by 1000 HP »

The life jackets do have a CO2 cartridge and a little pull handle. (Just like you said) :D
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Re: Life Jackets

Post by Boss Hawg »

1000 HP wrote:The life jackets do have a CO2 cartridge and a little pull handle. (Just like you said) :D
.....and they cost about $200 a piece. And you just know people are going to be yanking on those handles during flight if they are wearing them. They are a definite improvement over the older style (in a bag in the pouch in front of you) - you would never be able to get one of them on in an emergency.
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Post by Adanac »

Any of us that have flown floats knows someone that has put a plane in the drink. If it takes TC to rule that we make float planes safer, so be it. BUT.. (yes Cat, BUT) Don't leave the commercial side out of the decision. I say meet at the table and come up with what will work insted of being told to do something that won't!

As for all of those people that didn't make it out of the float planes, (RIP), I wonder how many were not wearing shoulder harnesses? Most of the Float related accidents I know of, the people that didn't make it out were already out cold from using the dash or seat back to stop their heads. I am not blaming them for this, it's just the way it is.

Maybe making shoulder harnesses manditory for all persons would be the way to go, but if you can't get out, would you really want to be awake?

My two cents.

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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by Widow »

So most of us know that TCCA initiated a "full review" of the air taxi industry in the Pacific region in 2006 after a "rash of accidents" ... and that although the review is apparently complete, no results have been made public.

I just found this old article, which states that a review of floatplane safety was initiated in 2005.
Safety of floatplanes under review
Last Updated: Sunday, August 14, 2005 | 3:52 PM ET
CBC News

Transport Canada is reviewing the safety of floatplanes following some serious accidents.
Last weekend, a floatplane flipped after an aborted takeoff south of the Perimeter Highway near Winnipeg. No one was seriously hurt.

But on the same weekend in Ontario, two people died when their plane crash near Barrie.

And last summer, two more people were killed in the Northwest Territories.
The father of one of the victims in the northern crash took his concern about floatplanes to Transport Canada, and now the agency has launched a safety review.

"From a transport view of point, clearly any accident is a concern, particularly any accident where there's a loss of life. So if we can improve things further, we're keen to do that," said Martin Eley, with the federal agency's Aircraft Certification Branch.

In the past 10 years, 558 Canadian float planes have crashed.

Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia have the highest number of accidents. Of the people killed since 1985, 37 of them have drowned.
Has anyone ever heard any results of THIS review???
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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by 2R »

How expensive would a big red handle fitted to the doors like an aerobatic or skidivers airplane to allow the pilot jetison the doors in an emergency be ???Just looks like wire and about three hours labour and some red paint .
How much do you think it would cost ???
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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by 1000 HP »

Very expensive by the time they get the STC done. As far as the shoulder harnesses, they are only in most airplanes for the front seat passengers so that they don't bash their brains out on the dash. That leaves 8 Otter or Caravan passengers without. I agree with adding hatches or extra doors (if possible) to aircraft. But within reason, something sorely lacking with government and special interest groups. Is Transport Canada supposed to become aircraft designers now? Come on :roll:

The Beech 18 was required to get the safety hatch because it only had one door and one pop-put escape hatch, both in the back.

The Beaver for example, does not need any extra doors or hatches. 50 percent of the passenger compartment and cockpit surface area is "festooned" with 4 doors, not to mention that many of them today have a large rear baggage door in the back. Any more doors and the plane will snap in half in turbulence. Think about that: Would you rather take your chances getting out of a submerged aircraft or flapping your arms really fast trying to reduce the impact when your bird disintegrates at 5000' AGL? :shock:

The Cessna 206 should be possibly required to have the passenger side door mod put in, but a better idea is to have them all put out of service. The door mod is about $20,000 so anybody wanting the mod should send the operator a cheque for the amount or get used to much higher rates. I would be much happier knowing that he is putting that money into a clean fuel system, and general aircraft maintenance.

The Otter needs no additions, period (Ok maybe less drunk american tourists).

All I would change on the Caravan is to remove the airstair and it's associated junk.

I recommend the dunk training for sure, but I don't think it should be mandatory. Your 400 pound cattle-ranching tourist is probably not going to pass the course, and would be unlikely to do it anyway. Some of the passenger arrive in a wheel-chair or missing a few marbles. The dunk training will help most, and I think it's a good idea, but it's hard enough to get tourists right now, so let's not scare any more of them away.

The point is, that flying is more risky than walking (maybe), and definitely safer than driving. Insurance companies have rates according to the pilot experience level and the carrier's record. That is fair.

Risk can be largely reduced by following existing rules. For example reduce weight to keep the aircraft at or below gross. As a passenger, this might require giving up the beer and switching to scotch. Also, I recommend sitting near a door if possible :D Don't whine when the pilot tells you to reduce your baggage because you are too heavy. A heavy aircraft needs a longer, hotter (engine temps) take-off run, and glides worse, OK? A pilot can reduce the risk by doing a more careful pre-flight, not overloading, and not allowing the drunk tourists onboard. :mrgreen: Mechanics can reduce the risk by grounding a machine that is marginal. I saw a Beaver come to our dock once, the pilot said he had a bad mag. Actually, he one one intermittent mag, and one completely fubar one. :shock:

In the end, if you are not willing to accept the risk, find a different way to get there. :D
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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by Widow »

I still don't understand why commercial float pilots aren't required to take egress training as part of their licensing requirement. It doesn't make sense to me, for so many reasons. Post-training, pilots must be SO much more aware of what is important to include in their pre-flight briefing - SO much more likely to be wearing their own PFD which must, in turn, encourage pax to do the same.

1000HP, how does the number of doors on the Beaver nullify a need for change if it's virtually impossible to open any of them once underwater? Unless, of course, you've had some training on how to kick open the windows and allow the a/c to fill up and equalize, or even to get a door open before impact.

Not forgetting about "life preservers" ... what good is a PFD sealed in a pouch strapped to the roof? Who has time to grab that and put it on when they're trying to get the f*** out?

And what about ELTs? Shouldn't floatplanes be equipped with some sort of signalling device that either jettisons or works underwater???

Ah but we've discussed all this before. A dead person is a lot cheaper than a live one.
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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by Widow »

I sent this request to TCCA:
8. On the 14th of August, 2005, CBC News reported that Transport Canada was “reviewing the safety of floatplanes following some serious accidents”. Can you please confirm that this review was performed and advise how the results are available to the public?
Today I received this reply...
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 2:20 PM
Subject: CAIRS MA-7047 - Floatplane Safety Review


Mrs. Stevens,

As you are aware, the recent concerns you expressed in your submission of May 1, 2008 in connection with a floatplane accident in 2005 were entered into the Civil Aviation Issues Reporting System (CAIRS) and were assigned file number MA-7047. I would like to express to you my personal condolences for the loss of your husband in a floatplane accident.

The Floatplane Safety Review that was undertaken in 2005-2006 was inconclusive in that it was unable to identify any specific solutions that could be clearly shown to improve floatplane safety. I hope that this provides clarification concerning the Floatplane Safety Review.

Transport Canada continues to raise people’s awareness of the considerations of travelling by floatplane through such products as TP 12365 “Seaplanes: A Passenger’s Guide” which is available at the following link on our website: http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Syste ... p12365.htm.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for sharing your views, as all comments we receive are appreciated.

Should you have any further questions, please feel free to contact at 613-952-4338 or via e-mail at eleym@tc.gc.ca.

Martin J. Eley
Director, National Aircraft Certification/Directeur, Certification nationale des aéronefs
eleym@tc.gc.ca (613) 952-4338 http://www.tc.gc.ca <http://www.tc.gc.ca>
facsimile / télécopieur (613) 996-9178 TTY / ATS (613) 990-4500
Transport Canada/Transports Canada, Place de Ville (AARD), Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0N5 Government of Canada/Gouvernement du Canada
Is this really a satisfactory answer? I think not. Knowing that floats are seldom treated with the care they deserve, considering that they are landing gear, knowing that the TSB "does not have the expertise" to determine how float condition may contribute to an accident, knowing that egress training makes a huge difference in survivability ...

How can they say they were unable to identify any specific solutions???

I will be writing back. And if necessary, doing an access to info request to get a copy of this so-called review.
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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by Cat Driver »

The Floatplane Safety Review that was undertaken in 2005-2006 was inconclusive in that it was unable to identify any specific solutions that could be clearly shown to improve floatplane safety. I hope that this provides clarification concerning the Floatplane Safety Review.
Incredible, simply incredible that is about as stupid an answer to such an important question as one could ever get.

Widow ask that idiot for an outline of the review with all the relevant information such as where it was held, how many meetings they had, who was involved and what specific solutions did they examine.

These pricks work for us and we should get a better answer than you just received.
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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by twotter »

So I guess in TC's infinite widom they will make us put back all the jettisonable door systems on ex military Beavers and Otters that we had to take off because they didn't like them??? LOL... Priceless..
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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by Widow »

----- Original Message -----
From: Kirsten Stevens
To: Eley, Martin
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: CAIRS MA-7047 - Floatplane Safety Review


Dear Mr. Eley,

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, this is wholly unsatisfactory.

From my own research and discussions with industry experts, it is clear to me that there are a number of things which could and should be done to improve floatplane safety. For instance, a mandatory requirement for all commercial floatplane pilots to take an underwater egress course would be of enormous benefit. I have also been made aware that floats are seldom treated with the due care that should be afforded landing gear, especially with older models for which no new guidelines have been issued. This is, in my opinion, extremely disturbing as I have been advised by the Transportation Safety Board that they do not have the expertise to determine how float condition may contribute to the severity of accidents.

Will you please provide me with a copy of the review? I would like to know who was involved in the review, when and where meetings were held, and of course, what solutions were examined and why they were rejected.

Respectfully,

Kirsten Stevens
Campbell River, BC
(250)287-2725
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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by Cat Driver »

Good luck with that request widow.

I have just had another go around with Preuss about my being harassed by a collection agency regarding the medical fee that TC charges us.

Even though I wrote to Preuss personally I got a typical jerk off letter back from this drone .
Kelsey Lamb
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Their skills at stonewalling and dodging the issue is breathtaking, simply breathtaking.

He did leave the door open with this offer though and I of course used it.
In the meantime, should you have any questions or if I can be of any other assistance to you in this matter please do not hesitate to contact me via e-mail at cairs_ncr@tc.gc.ca.
We get the governance we put up with, in the case of TCCA they could be headquartered in Harare judging by how they operate..
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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by Hammr Tyme »

twotter wrote:So I guess in TC's infinite widom they will make us put back all the jettisonable door systems on ex military Beavers and Otters that we had to take off because they didn't like them??? LOL... Priceless..

This is something that would not surprise me at all,
TC has knee jerk reactions and we the public that they serve suffer the consequences :rolleyes:

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by floatflyingguy »

1000 HP wrote:

All I would change on the Caravan is to remove the airstair and it's associated junk.

OH BUDDY do i agree with that. i work with two caravans, on amphibian, on grand caravan. the airstair is fine with the grand caravan. but on the amphib, the airstair door is a real pain in the arse.
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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by BigWillyStyle »

I see everyones points, but bear in mind that any door design can be jammed if the impact forces are just so. An upside down waterfilled floatplane with all doors working can kill a passenger who hasn't hit their head just as easily as one who has hit their head.

My point is: assessment of risk. You can NEVER remove all the risk from flying. NEVER. You can NEVER remove all the risk from driving or crossing the street or drinking scotch. If designers could predict every crash modality, and engineer a solution, the plane would be so heavy it wouldn't fly. Armoured, enclosed, rocket propelled escape pods a la B-58, perhaps?

I mean no disrespect to the memory of those who have tragically lost their lives in floatplane accidents. I have lost a few friends in aircraft accidents over the years. It sucks. But a few dozen fatalities in 20 years of float flying over how many millions of hours flown? Statistically, that's nothing. More people got struck by lightning.

I read once that roughly the same amount of people died in aircraft accidents in 1946 as in 1996, but over 50 years, the volume of air travel had increased by a factor of 1000. So, aviation in 1996 was 1000 times safer than air travel in 1946. That's a record to be proud of.

All we can do, outside of fixing obvious technical flaws, is education of risk. Dunk training for pilots is a great idea. Making dunk training a part of the float rating, perhaps? Adding lifeguard skills to the rating maybe? But before any of that, float pilots need to look in the mirror and acknowledge the risk to themselves and to their passengers, that they face every day. Whenever you fly heavy, or into shit weather, or with a page full of snags,or hung-over, or after 15 hours your shit-for-brains manager is asking for one more "off the book" trip, then remember who is managing the risk. Grow backbones.

Bad shit will always happen. My wife is a cop. She accepts the risk when she puts on the uniform, and so do I. I accept the risk when I jump into an airplane, cross the street, walk in the woods, or drink scotch. If I don't accept it, I don't do it.

If you are tempted to cry for standards to TC (a possibly futile effort) or to operators, or to industry, might I suggest checking your own standards first.
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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by Widow »

BigWillyStyle wrote:Dunk training for pilots is a great idea. Making dunk training a part of the float rating, perhaps?
Considering the number of times this has been recommended by the TSB to TCCA, I find it reprehensible that they claim to have been "unable to identify any specific solutions that could be clearly shown to improve floatplane safety" during the recent safety review.

TCCA Responses to TSB Recommendation in "A Safety Study of Piloting Skills, Abilities and Knowledge in Seaplane Operations".
Given some unnecessary risk associated with underwater escape from crashed seaplanes and the apparent lack of initiatives within the seaplane community to address the issue, the TSB sent Aviation Safety Advisory A000003-1 to Transport Canada (TC) on 02 March 2000. The advisory suggested that TC consider reviewing the previous safety recommendations contained in the TSB safety studies in order to develop effective measures that would enhance the likelihood of escape from cabins of submerged seaplanes.

The Board assessed TC's response to this advisory as satisfactory in part. TC has undertaken many initiatives on this issue, including articles in Aviation Safety Letter, pamphlets, training programs, a video, workshops, and enforcement actions. However, much of this material was available before the accident, which was the catalyst for the safety advisory. Also, TC has not addressed the issue of the provision of "dunk-tank" training for seaplane pilots. This training is likely the most effective means of preparing pilots for underwater egress.
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Re: Float Plane Standards

Post by Cat Driver »

Lets take a fairly uncomplicated method of opening doors in an emergency.

Quick release hinges, my Cessna Aerobat had them as part of the certification for it's mission ( aerobatics ) so why can't float planes have them?

Is a quick release hinge pin so difficult to design compared to a regular hinge pin?
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