Mode C Transponder into a Cessna 150

[Johnny Drama]

Can anyone out their shed some light on how much (approx) it would cost to get a Mode C Transponder into a Cessna 150? Lets assume I would have the Transponder in hand already.

[AOW]

There are probably too many variables to give an accurate estimate, but some questions that might improve the accuracy:

Has the airplane ever had a transponder before? if yes, then a few of the installation steps are simplified.

When you say "transponder in hand", what exactly do you mean? If you just have the box out of the stack of somebody else's airplane, you are still short a fair number of pieces. It may be actually cheaper to buy a whole new transponder installation kit rather than trying to piece together parts for an older model.

Do you already have an encoding altimeter? If not, then one must be installed, not to mention the pitot/static leak check.

Do you have room in your radio stack for it? If major modifications to the panel are required, the price will obviously go up.

You get the picture.... now perhaps contact an avionics shop and ask them for an estimate. They may ask you to take some photos of your existing panel, so they have an idea what they are working with.

If I were you, I would budget about $4000 for parts and labour, and more if you have a particularly difficult situation.

Good luck!

[azimuthaviation]

4000? I would venture about a third of that, half at most, depending on what you already have. First of all you dont need an encoding altimeter, just an encoder which you can get for 75 or 100 dollars used and will get recertified when u do the correlation after install. The electrical portion of the install requires about a dozen or so wires, one or two 18 or 20 guage wires going to a breaker (3 amp usually), eight encoding lines connecting the transponder and encoder and most transponders have a power output that will power the encoder, as well as the encoder can get its ground through the transponder or directly to the aircraft ground. to plumb the encoder in you need to branch off the static lines which in a 150 I think are plastic 1/4 or 3/16 inch lines which can easily be modified with ten or 20 dollars worth of nuts, tees and a couple feet of line. The transponder just installs in a rack in the radio stack with a few screws. A pitot/static leak test and correlation test at the end and youre good to go. Woluld need a few more details to give a quote.

[azimuthaviation]

This isnt a 150 from Alberta thats in owner maintenance is it?

[straightpilot]

In my experience (sure to be contradicted by AME's
here wanting to get you into their shop) when you install
an encoder into an older aircraft, the pitot/static systems
are leaky as hell and will not pass. They probably haven't
been looked at in decades - possibly not since it was new.

It's not unusual to have instruments that leak (eg airspeed
indicator) and you will need to re-certify the altimeter. The
VSI may also give you problems. It may not make sense
to try to repair your old instruments, so you may have to
buy new ones. Cha-ching.

Then, all your tubing may need to be replaced. The joints
may be leaking. You might have to change to pitot line
that runs out in the wing.

When you add up the parts and labour for just getting
your pitot/static system back to spec, plus taxes on all
that, it can be a hefty chunk of change. And you haven't
even installed the encoder and transponder yet, or put
the harness together between the two.

And you're going to need an electrical load analysis because
of the new transponder and encoder, and you're going to
need to amend the equipment list, and you're going to need
to fill out the major mod report, or whatever the kids these
days are calling a 24-0045.

That all adds up. With taxes, you could easily spend $5000.

Consider having this done in the USA. A friend of mine saved
nearly ten thousand dollars by having a major avionics install
done down south.

[CID]

Yes by all means go to the US to get the work done. And when you need a quick repair by a local shop to get you going.....they just might tell you to go back to the US.

[straightpilot]

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 11184.html

[cgzro]

Yes by all means go to the US to get the work done. And when you need a quick repair by a local shop to get you going.....they just might tell you to go back to the US.

Is it even legal to have a US shop work on a CDN registered plane or vice versa?

Getting back to the Xponder, I had an xponder and ELT installed by a large avionics shop in Kitchener Waterloo and the final bill for the xponder work was not far off the number given by that poster.

I think the Xponder was about 1,000, the encoder about $500, ALT recertification what $200, the static leak down test a few hundred, antenna a few hundred, hundred bucks worth of coax etc. and ALLLLLLL the rest in labour ...

Anyway I'd suggest getting a pitot/static leak test done first to find out if the existing wing tubing is ok, thats I guess an expensive ticket item if its not.

[photofly]

Is it even legal to have a US shop work on a CDN registered plane or vice versa?

Absolutely.

There's a bilateral agreement that says that, excepting annual inspections, each side's AME's and A&P's have equivalent privileges. See http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/s ... 36.htm#3_1 for details.

TC will even accept an FAA form 337 in lieu of a Part V Standard 571 report. See http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... s-1827.htm information note (iii).

If you want a recommendation for a shop in the US to install the transponder send me a pm.

It might also be worth checking the certification requirements in Canada for the transponder and static system, and making sure that whatever the testing done in the US, it meets or exceeds Canadian requirements. A US A&P is unlikely to know what is required by TC. If that's a point of concern to you then a TC inspector might be able to give you the answer. (Before anyone scoffs, I have found them to be very helpful on the phone and by email in interpreting some of that sort of fine print.)

You are of course obliged to declare the repairs or work to Canada Customs on bringing the aircraft back, and they will charge you the relevant HST or whatever, unless they were "emergency" repairs.

EDIT: note to self: FAA transponder certification requirements are in 14 CFR Part 43 Appendix F and the TC requirements are in Part V - Standard 571 Appendix F and they appear to be identical.

[azimuthaviation]

What makes you think an American company will do it for less? Will the lines not leak in American air? The instruments that are faulty here will work better there? A 150 with no encoder will not have a lot of plumbing to it so even IF you had to change all the lines its what? One static port, a couple T's linking the ASI ALT and VSI (if equipped) and a pitot line to the ASI. No second static source, no alternate static, no convoluted interconnections... And an ELA and W&B can be done in a matter of minutes, just a matter of plugging in some numbers in an excell file which Im sure your AMO has.

But if you think going to the USA will save you money even after factoring in the cost of travel, by all means go for it. They will give you a great deal especially knowing youll fly away and never come back for any warranty claims.

I had one guy fly into the shop asking me to troubleshoot a problem with a Sat tracker he had installed in the US, he was on his way to the Yukon. The tracker lasted a few minutes then quit. I took a look and saw a pretty hapazard job, wires already bent and stretched, pulled roughly through the structure, no clamps no grommets. But the problem was the tracker ran on 24 volts and his was a 12 volt machine, it lasted as long as the internal backup battery had power left, which was by the time he got to Northern Ab. He had to keep going, and what could he do but buy a DC voltage converter and have me install it? I guarantee you having the only converter within a 200 mile radius and the only one around to install it, that ate up all that he saved going south. I never did follow up but what kind of reimbursement and compensation did the avionics shop give him? Something to the tune of "Oh bring it back here we'll fix it up for you" knowing that itll never be worth making a trip there for the warranty

[photofly]

LIke I said, if you'd like to speak to a massively experienced avionics shop staffed by lovely people, with a very reasonable hourly rates and a big hangar at a clean and tidy airport (not in Transponder airspace) with no landing fees and fuel at $5.something per gallon who are pleased to see new customers for installing anything from a new transponder in a C150 to a FLIR on your biz-jet and who do it without the "attitude", sense of entitlement, or crude attempts at blackmail that you get from some Canadian AME's, then let me know.

If you're hours-building then the trip down there is great experience, and cheaper than the same hours in Canada too because of the cost of fuel.

[photofly]

I also suggest buying the encoder and the antenna, and having the cabling looms made up in advance. Whoever does the install should be happy to advise you in advance what you need to have ready, including cable lengths. Again, PM me and I can tell you how I went about almost exactly the same thing.

[straightpilot]

a massively experienced avionics shop staffed by lovely people, with a very reasonable hourly rates and a big hangar at a clean and tidy airport (not in Transponder airspace) with no landing fees and fuel at $5.something per gallon who are pleased to see new customers for installing anything from a new transponder in a C150 to a FLIR on your biz-jet and who do it without the "attitude", sense of entitlement, or crude attempts at blackmail that you get from some Canadian AME's

+1

[System Message]

Now ask yourself if you want a transponder. There are only a few airports which require them, and they tend to not be the sort of place private aircraft want to go because of heavy traffic, expensive parking, long taxis, and pavement to wear out the tires. Occasionally crossing the border can be done with a waiver. There is a danger here of spending more on radios than the airplane.

[azimuthaviation]

Now ask yourself if you want a transponder. There are only a few airports which require them

Great advice right there.

I also suggest buying the encoder and the antenna, and having the cabling looms made up in advance. Whoever does the install should be happy to advise you in advance what you need to have ready, including cable lengths.

So you just buy these things at wal mart? Where do you buy a ten foot length of coax from? They sell it in 100 foot rolls. Then you go to an avionics shop, get them to make you some "looms?" and then come back and ask them to install it?

[photofly]

You're the AME - why on earth are you asking my advice?

@Johnny Drama: For the install of some recent avionics I had the looms made up in advance and tested, and at a very reasonable price, so it was almost entirely plug'n'play for the installers. I'm happy to put you in touch with the people that did the job for me, in case they can help you out.

[Johnny Drama]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Good stuff to think about. I been given an opportunity from a family friend with a 150 to build some much needed time for my ATPL (I am currently an FO on an RJ overseas but don't fly the normal airline hours every year), however he's out in the prairies on a farm so the plane never had a Transponder.

If I remember correctly from my flight training days I am pretty sure flying in most busy airspace in Canada requires a Mode C. I also live in one of these areas so I am curious the costs before I go and pick this thing up.

Again thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.

[avyonx]

What makes you think an American company will do it for less? Will the lines not leak in American air? The instruments that are faulty here will work better there?

+1

Consider having this done in the USA. A friend of mine savednearly ten thousand dollars by having a major avionics installdone down south.

Wow! I didn't know an encoder was a major avionics install?? or were you just trying to make a point about cheaper and cutting corners in the US is a better idea?

Anyways Mr. Drama...........If you're in the London Ontario area I will be able to quote you a proper install job if you want to PM me. You can just send me some pics and a list of equipment you have or want installed. Its guys like Straightpilot and his buddies that are helping to slow aviation in Canada by going state side. Don't join the club!

[photofly]

One could argue that it's Canadian AME's who overcharge who are slowing things in Canada, not the customers who refuse to be gouged. If you're not one of those AMEs then that's great, and good for all of us in Canada.

[azimuthaviation]

Ok am I missing something here? If one avionics company made the harness, tested it and sold it, then another company installed it how does that save money over one company making the harness and installing it? Both are specialised maintenance so both companies would need to be AMO's. Either way an AME rate is pretty much the same whether M or E.

[photofly]

In my case the company that made my harnesses are an authorised Repair Station who were very familiar with the equipment pinouts, connector requirements etc. They don't do installs but they were able to make up the cabling for a very good price, to the lengths I specified. I can't be 100% certain what it would have cost to have the installers make up the wiring but there would have been a lot more to-ing and fro-ing, finding of documentation, and so forth.

I guess there's a risk that the cables won't fit, or the connectors will be wrong, or wrongly wired, or whatever. In this case everything went very smoothly and having stuff to hand minized the AOG time.

I think overall this thread has become too polarized, and I just want to say that lots of Canadian AMEs are great, and lots of US ones are incompetent. There's no doubt in my mind that I've had very good value from repairs done in Canada. Ultimately however I think everyone benefits when all repair shops are on a level field, and the choice of where work is done is based on better criteria than on the nationality of the business.