AME's who are thieves Part Duh

[azimuthaviation]

I think Colonel Sanders has a good solution, the real Colonel Sanders that is. Start franchising GA aircraft maintenance shops, so you know what youre going to get all the time. Like Fountain Tire or Jiffy Lube. With a larger organisation theres way more accountability, better guarantee and a desire to maintain the integrity of their reputation. Have one in most major cities, sell the franchise to owner operators who have to uphold company standards and there goes the guess work with wherever you send your a/c.

[photofly]

Dragons' Den is on TV right now; maybe we should pitch it to Jim Treliving?

[crazy_aviator]

And that, photofly is why anyone who is thinking of becoming an AME who intends on maintaining private aircraft is nuts. For some reason, people will allow mechanics at Canadian Tire charge them flat rates and mark up every single part they pull out of stock but when it comes to airplanes, they suddenly feel that the AME should make minimum wage and supply parts at cost.

Call out a heating specialist to come fix your furnace and for some reason it's OK to charge retail for that flame sensor and charge 3 hours minimum call-out. But get a guy to fix an airplane, the thing you strap your ass into as you hurtle through the sky and it's an outrage!

My personal advice to AMEs, steer clear of private operators. Unless of course you want to be witness to people who really can't afford to own an airplane and try to take it out on you by nickel and diming every single aspect of maintenance on their pride and joy.

Yes, there are dishonest people out there on the operator side and on the maintainer side but the odds are stacked against the AME in GA. in Canada.

Strong words indeed, but sadly true ! Ive been in this aviation world for 30 yrs, often in GA and i can attest that those words are indeed fact ! On the subject of parts mark-up ,,, often an aircraft owner will try to save a dime ,, he gets the part number OR the parts manual and orders the part himself, of course he orders the wrong part , NOW he has incurred the Ames time , borrowed his book , ordered a part that NOW the ame has to deal with and re-order, not to mention core return problems . As far as mark-up goes it used to be that parts and services outlets would NOT deal with pilot/owners and would deal with AME s and provide a discount , so the AME could appropriately mark it up AND add an additional fee for his labours, its not so any more and the AME is being shafted both ways

[DonutHole]

I can see that installing customer-supplied parts can be a headache.

I'm happy to have found an AME who will let me help with the work, and who's happy to work either with parts I supply or order them in himself at minimal markup. I don't necessarily expect him to be so accomodating, and I'm grateful for it. Finding and ordering parts myself I consider to be part of my self-education as an aircraft owner.

It obviously works for this AME too; he has a constant stream of regular (private owner) customers, he's booked up some weeks ahead, and tells me he has a good standard of living.

I personally enjoy having the owners come in and help with the mtc. I find that it saves the owners money, not only on the labor cost which would be incurred if I had to take the panels and the seats out, but as i find stuff I can stop and explain to them what is going on, and why the error occurred, and most importantly, why it needs to be fixed. As the customers learn more I find that there are a lot less things wrong on the next annual. Let's face it, you can tell a guy to lean his engine to prevent lead buildup, but if you show them what a spark plug clogged with lead looks like they will be more likely to lean their engine, because now they have an understanding as to why they're getting a crappy mag drop.

I also don't mind them supplying parts, though for most, it is simply easier for me to do it for them. I like to keep the cost of mtc down for the customer. Less money towards mtc is more money towards flying, which ultimately means more money towards mtc. GA is supposed to be FUN and getting hammered with a gigantic bill every year isn't condusive to fun.

In the end, I try not to (and do not) nickle and dime my customers out of GA. It's penny smart dollar stupid. I cannot count how many times a customer has had an issue that I fixed right there on the spot for free just to get them in the air. Your brakes are soft and you need to go flying, @#$! it, I'll bleed them for you right then and there it's a five minute job. Your getting a crappy mag drop? Takes no time to check the timing and adjust if necessary. Your idle speed is too high (here's looking at you sanders) It takes ten minutes to set it up right. These guys don't expect that kind of stuff to be done for free but if you do it, when it comes time for the big fixes they are a lot less apt to bitch when they get hammered with a bill they might not have expected.

[brownbear]

markup:

Ok an AMO should have an account with a parts company that gets them wholesale pricing. Then the part is marked up to retail or slightly above to get a correct gross profit margin.

Independent AME's might not have special accounts to get lower pricing. But even thought they are not stocking parts they take risk by ordering parts that might not work (mod status or not the fault of the part), they take financial risk by paying for the parts before invoicing and this is how the AME also makes a living.

The car repair place just ordered in brakes to fix my truck, should they be forced to sell it at their cost even if they bought the parts from napa at the same price I can?

Remember the AME also has to accept the part with a receiving inspection, is the documentation good?, Part is serviceable etc...

The AME's getting referral commission on engine overhaul sales, should explain to the owner why the company he is referring to is different/good and that he is a sales associate for them. Then the owner can decide if the sales job by the AME is worth it or not. But it's up front. The AME is not bound to tell the owner what he makes off of it, that's private. Maybe the owner can share his T4? But the owner should know he is a agent for the overhaul company.

[Colonel Sanders]

The AME is not bound to tell the owner what he makes off of it

I am sure that 99.99999999999% of the time, the AME
"forgets" to tell the owner about the kickback he gets
from the engine shop. And it's obvious as to why.

You can be certain that the owner will be unhappy about
the kickback, because it comes right out of the owner's
pocket, in the form of an increased price from the AME's
choice of engine shop.

Let's say there are two engine shops which will do nearly
identical overhauls. One charges $25k and one charges
$27k and kicks back $2k to the AME.

Now, which do you think the owner is going to choose?

[Strega]

I was actually charged money for this.... Top notch!

[BeaverFixer]

So photfly, why didnt you send the tank out to Hartwig youself? What was ths amount of the repair?
Did the AME pay the Hartwig bill? If he did Ill bet he had to put it on his visa card. Did the AME have to wait to get paid by you?
What would you sugest the AME should have marked up the Hartwig invoice?
Not trying to be a smartass, but I really wonder what you think would be fair.
I agree It does suck that the AMEs work was substanard
One issue is there is no such thing as wholesale pricing on parts for AME's or AMOs. The AMO pays the same for a case of oil as the private owner. The AMO probably pays more wholesale for an alternator from Aviall than the private owner pays for the same alternator from AC Spruce.
And no, AC Spruce will not give AMOs a discount, everyone pays the same.
I don't know what the answer is, the AMO has to make something though.
I know the hourly shop rate alone won't cover fixed costs fot the AMO or even just an AME, liability insurance, manuals, utilities, hangar/land lease or payments, wages, all those unbillable hours dealing with TC, audits etc.
Just got done sending Cesna $600.00 for manual and SB subscrition for a year. Somewhere I have to cover expenes like that. The owner is responsible to supply manuals to the AME, none do. Through in some recurrent training (manadtory) expense and it goes on and on. Back to the engine shop markup, if I get a cheque from Teledyne Continental 6 months after I install a factory reman the customer bought himself, should I keep the money or give it to the customer?
It was in Us $ too, back when US$ were worth more. $500 for a 520 or 550 Series engine, $400 for a 470 series engine. The cheque was made out to me persnally too.

I have just about talked myself out of this indusry.
By the way, I kept the cheque to buy shoes for my babies, but I did have to think about it for about 3 minutes to decide.

[Colonel Sanders]

AC Spruce will not give AMOs a discount

Not true.

I know the hourly shop rate alone won't cover fixed costs fot the AMO

I think you're saying that your hourly rate is too low.
Increase it.

And for gosh sakes, if you spend time doing something
specific for an aircraft/owner - researching AD's, for
example - invoice the owner for it!

I really don't understand some of the excuses being
put forward here.

Note that this $30k annual included big dollars for manuals
from Cessna that the AME kept. If I was the owner I'd
say sure, give me the manuals I just bought. The AME
doesn't own my tech manuals, either, despite what some
people think.

I have just about talked myself out of this indusry.

Ok, but why can't you simply just charge the owner
straight up for what you do? Why all the underhanded
subterfuge?

I remember a few years back, a friend of mine wanted
a G530 installed. Obsolete now, of course, but back
then it was cool. Shop quoted 240 hours (or something
insane like that) for install. Elapsed time one week, with
only one person working on it. Even if the poor guy bills
20 hours a day - 4 hrs of sleep, and he doesn't get to
eat, shower of sh1t for a week - that's still only 7x20
or 140 hours. Where is the other 100 hours?

Shop admitted that they kept the shop rate low to get
people through the door (instead of the competition's)
then overbilled the hours to make up for it.

I know AME's have no problem with this, but believe
it or not, it upsets customers when you invoice them
for something you didn't do.

[SeptRepair]

So an AME buys the part from a/c spruce ( or whatever vendor you choose) at his discounted rate and then charges the part out at a mark up, should that price include the cost of shipping? What I am getting at, shipping is getting out of control on how fricken expensive it is getting. I face this dilemma quite often. I order the part in, and the shipping is the same price as the part. As a customer, would you like to see me detail the freight charges separately or would you like that hidden in the price of the part? Do you think it is fair to be charged a mark up of 10% on the cost of freight?

For Photofly, If the fuel cell did spring a leak and it in no way was caused by the AME (generic AME ,not the guy you had trouble with), would you pay him twice to re and re the fuel cell or would you expect him to fight the fuel cell company for the warranty labor? Do fuel cell companies actually warranty labor? Hell even if the AME ordered the fuel cell himself do you expect him to eat warranty labor costs if the shop where he got the fuel cell from denied labor warranty? What is your personal perspective on this scenario.

Now my recent scenario. I have had the unfortunate time of dealing with a cheap ass aircraft owner for the past 7 years. Every year its a fight with him to do the proper maintenance. Every year I remind him his 2yr pitot/stat recert is over due or his ELT needs recert. ( last done 9 yrs ago) I tell him of shops to take it to and it falls on deaf ears. I just write it in the log as being due and let it go. Every fall I tell him we should inhibit the engine if its going to sit all winter, Falls on deaf ears. In the spring the battery is dead and he is raving mad about how the battery manufacturers are just as bunch of idiots and it should be warrantied. I have repeatedly told him to remove it and keep it charged up through the winter. Falls on deaf ears. 3 years ago I stopped doing his annual, as I stopped calling him to remind him it was due. The guy is a flake.
I get a call last week from a mutual pilot friend saying the aircraft needs an annual ( wants to sell it) and what should they do. I referred them to two different well established AMO's here on the Island. ( I told him of the need for a ferry permit and to find someone who will take the risk of flying it there. ( owner is scared to fly with out a babysitter) and no I wont sign the ferry permit). I also informed the mutual friend this guy does not believe in insurance of any kind, so if he chooses to fly it he is not covered. So contact the AMO, have them drive the 2 hrs to come see the aircraft and get them to deal with it. I'm done. Handed the tech logs back. The aircraft is listed for about 55k, he is into it for about 80k with all the goodies he has added over the years. As it sits now the aircraft is probably worth about 25k ( can you say new cam?) The man is going to crap when he realizes he will need to drop at least 20k to get it marketable for the 55k asking price. But if any other private AME/AMOs near the lower mainland/Vancouver island reading this want this customer please let me know and I will pass on your info. I don't think he has got the flight permit yet. Money to be made here my friends, money to be made.

[Colonel Sanders]

This is a very simple concept:

Just because someone else is an idiot, doesn't mean you should be.

[DonutHole]

I remember a few years back, a friend of mine wanted
a G530 installed. Obsolete now, of course, but back
then it was cool. Shop quoted 240 hours (or something
insane like that) for install. Elapsed time one week, with
only one person working on it. Even if the poor guy bills
20 hours a day - 4 hrs of sleep, and he doesn't get to
eat, shower of sh1t for a week - that's still only 7x20
or 140 hours. Where is the other 100 hours?

Sounds like a flat rate type of scenario to me. Do you have a problem with this when a car dealership does it? Was this job actually billed out at 240 hours in the end or was that the initial quote. It might be hard for some to understand but it is a lot easier to overquote than it is to underquote. The customer is generally pleased to come back after being quoted 240 hours to find he is being billed for 120, but the other way around... not so cool.

[Colonel Sanders]

Didn't use that shop. My understanding was that
the 240 hrs was flat rate. I'm not an avionics guy,
I don't know if six weeks of labour is a good price
for a GPS install.

Edit -- did a quick google. $3k to $5k seems to
be the norm in the USA to install a G530. Not
sure how we got from that to six weeks of shop
labour, which was going to get done by one guy
in one week. If I was a religious person, I would
say that they were planning on a miracle!

[DonutHole]

Six weeks sounds like way too much to me.

But, you start getting in behind the panel of a thirty year old aircraft and it's usually a fricken mess. You have to make sure that not only what you put in works, but you also have to make sure that whatver you touch while you're in there still works when you're finished. I have yet to dig into a panel that didn't need a bunch of stuff fixed along with whatever piece of equipment that needs to be installed. Many times the entire panel has to be re and re'd just to do a proper tidy installation.

[GyvAir]

But, you start getting in behind the panel of a thirty year old aircraft and it's usually a fricken mess....

+1 on that. There are many times it looks like on previous installs that perhaps they charged for 240 hours on a job that should have taken 120, but actually only spent 60 hours on it, resulting in a butchery hack job that makes it a nightmare for the next person to work with and around. Not to mention a nightmare to quote a job on.

I was actually charged money for this.... Top notch!

That is the control wye of a Cessna that they've neatly tywrapped the duct and cable to, isn't it? Very nice. Amazing how often you find stuff like that though.
I once found the aileron cables securely tywrapped to a nearby wire bundle along about an 8 foot span inside one wing, including a turnbuckle that had to make its way through one of the tywraps to allow lock to lock movement of the ailerons. I told the owner what I'd found and his response was something to the effect of "I noticed the ailerons felt different/weird after the last inspection". That's a failure by both the AMO/AME and the pilot/owner. If you know something's not right about an aircraft coming out of maintenance, the correct response is to challenge it, not to fly it. Any competent mechanic or pilot would have known in 2 seconds from the cockpit that something was wrong with that control system.

[photofly]

So photfly, why didnt you send the tank out to Hartwig youself? What was ths amount of the repair?
Did the AME pay the Hartwig bill? If he did Ill bet he had to put it on his visa card. Did the AME have to wait to get paid by you?
What would you sugest the AME should have marked up the Hartwig invoice?
Not trying to be a smartass, but I really wonder what you think would be fair.

5%. 10% tops. Note this is not something the AME had to take a chance on, or stock. This was something he billed right back out to me. He did have to wait to get paid, but mainly because it took a looong time for him to get the aircraft airworthy again. I've no idea what his credit arrangements with Hartwig are; I'd happily have paid them directly with my credit card.

For Photofly, If the fuel cell did spring a leak and it in no way was caused by the AME (generic AME ,not the guy you had trouble with), would you pay him twice to re and re the fuel cell or would you expect him to fight the fuel cell company for the warranty labor? Do fuel cell companies actually warranty labor? Hell even if the AME ordered the fuel cell himself do you expect him to eat warranty labor costs if the shop where he got the fuel cell from denied labor warranty? What is your personal perspective on this scenario.

The AME didn't promise me that he'd fix the leak. (No, I don't believe fuel cell companies warranty labour. You might have a claim for damages against them, but it's a long shot.) The AME "promised me" only that he'd take the fuel bladder out, send it off for repair, and put it back. If it leaked again there's no doubt in my mind that he'd have expected me to pay him to take it out again and send it back to Hartwig a second time. Which I think is reasonable, actually.

[GyvAir]

Since about one day after this guy chiseled out and sold the first wheel, we've been arguing over the bill and whether or not the axle was being greased correctly.

[david_351]

I enjoy ripping owners off. I have a few customers who saved for 20 plus years to buy a crappy old 152, and no nothing about it, much like colonel sanders knows nothing about airplanes, cars or tractors. Anyhow back to the story, so anyways these guys throw there life savings into the airplanes and I just hose them down hard on every piece of maintenance. One guy actually had to sell his car to pay for a simple engine re and re. hahhahah stupid owners

[Colonel Sanders]

Hey, you must be the guy who complained and had
the original $30k annual thread removed, because
you don't want people knowing about your "work".

Great job!

[CID]

DonutHole, with all due respect, you're part of the problem, not the solution. I value my time. I worked hard to achieve a high level of skill in my field(s) and if someone wants to utilize my skills for their gain they will be charge for it.

Bleeding brakes for free?? Are you serious? The only possible scenario for such a service is having your customers pay a premium for inspections and other work in order for you to be able to afford these little "Canadian Tire" style casual tweaks.

With respect to "parts", the old saying "parts is parts" just doesn't work. If you are an established AMO you will certainly have a wholesale discount for MANY of the required parts. I know of some private owners who establish phony companies just so they can go buy those wholesale parts themselves but that doesn't work for avionics (for example) generally because dealers usually have quotas they must meet to get the discount.

Those same owners who manage to get the wholesale prices don't usually have the training or know-how to get properly approved parts. Or maybe they don't care.

How often has your customer presented you with a part from Aircraft Spruce with no Form 1/8130-3 certificate? Aircraft Spruce sells such parts at a deep discount but here's the thing. They are BOGUS PARTS. I've met a few AMEs who seem to think that a packing slip from Aircraft Spruce is good enough....

I also have known owners who buy stuff from Aviall at the retail price and presented it to their AME to install. They don't have the decency to let the AME pocket the difference between retail and wholesale. They just let Aviall have it.

6 weeks for an install? Sounds like a reasonable estimate. Here's why. If it's done legally and properly, the installer needs to order the equipment AND get the RTU for the STC. Then he needs to start ASAP on the airplane, removing all of the old crap (carefully) in order to prevent damage and extra expense. Stuff that needs replacement unexpectedly, like antennas, antenna cables, switches, circuit breakers and extras like converters or annunciators must be ordered on the fly because nobody can afford to keep stock anymore.

During that 6 weeks, the airplane will likely sit idle for several days with nobody working on it while parts find their way to the installer.

During the install, (if done properly) the installer will do bonding tests, pito-static tests function tests (of all systems that may have been disturbed) and a flight test. These days many shops choose to rent or lease that expensive test equipment so it may take time to get it.

If the airplane is pressurized, additional time may be required to document and approve the antenna installation or any other bulkhead penetrations. Can you say "STC"?

In the old days, 6 weeks would be way off the mark. These days, with the complications and the extremely low profit margins in GA (thanks to people giving it away) it's about right.

[photofly]

How often has your customer presented you with a part from Aircraft Spruce with no Form 1/8130-3 certificate? Aircraft Spruce sells such parts at a deep discount but here's the thing. They are BOGUS PARTS. I've met a few AMEs who seem to think that a packing slip from Aircraft Spruce is good enough....

I went through this in detail with a TC inspector, about a new Concorde battery, and "traceability". He told me that basically an AS invoice was fine, too. Good enough for the TC inspector, good enough for me.

[CID]

Photofly, if that's true, your TC inspector is completely wrong. He/she needs to read 571 and V part 71.

Why not just get a battery from Walmart? Traceability isn't the only difference between an aeronautical product and a bogus part.

[photofly]

Photofly, if that's true, your TC inspector is completely wrong. He/she needs to read 571 and V part 71.

Why not just get a battery from Walmart? Traceability isn't the only difference between an aeronautical product and a bogus part.

He might be wrong, but he basically said by even making enquiries I was doing more than any private owner he'd ever met, and as far as buying something from AS (and the fact that they conform to FAA parts supply requirements) it just wasn't something TC was interested in.

[CID]

But that's the point, It DOESN'T conform to FAA parts supply requirements. At the very least a good AME would refuse to install it. Worst case you have an accident (related to the battery or not) and your insurance doesn't pay out because you failed to maintain a C of A or other flight authority.

Speaking of which, is this airplane in the rec category?

[DonutHole]

DonutHole, with all due respect, you're part of the problem, not the solution. I value my time. I worked hard to achieve a high level of skill in my field(s) and if someone wants to utilize my skills for their gain they will be charge for it.

Bleeding brakes for free?? Are you serious? The only possible scenario for such a service is having your customers pay a premium for inspections and other work in order for you to be able to afford these little "Canadian Tire" style casual tweaks.

I understand your perspective and actually respect it. Where I work, the planes I service are used hard. My average customer is not a weekend warrior. We *DO* charge a premium for our inspections because, due to the nature of our customers aircraft usage every annual is in depth and intensive. We are constantly finding issues that require extensive labor to repair. Believe me, if a five minute job here and there is going to impact my bottom line then I a) wouldn't be doing it b) would not be working at a very successful business. Five minutes here and five minutes there does not figure into the break point on profits so why wouldn't I? How do you even bill five minute out? we round down to the nearest fifteen minutes anyway.

During that 6 weeks, the airplane will likely sit idle for several days with nobody working on it while parts find their way to the installer.

So you are okay with charging somebody labor time while the airplane sits with nobody working on it? Now who is part of the problem? We are not talking six weeks turn around here, we are talking six weeks invoiced for labor. There is a big difference between having a turn around time of six weeks due to waiting for parts and test equpiment while only being billed for a few weeks of actual labor and being billed for six weeks of actual labor.

During the install, (if done properly) the installer will do bonding tests, pito-static tests function tests (of all systems that may have been disturbed) and a flight test. These days many shops choose to rent or lease that expensive test equipment so it may take time to get it.

If the airplane is pressurized, additional time may be required to document and approve the antenna installation or any other bulkhead penetrations. Can you say "STC"?

In the old days, 6 weeks would be way off the mark. These days, with the complications and the extremely low profit margins in GA (thanks to people giving it away) it's about right.

So because it is hard to make a living in GA it is okay to charge people labor while you're not working on the aircraft. Maybe if there were more customers in GA it would be easier to make money in the industry, but with people like like those who charge the customer shop rate while the aircraft is sitting idle not being worked on, it is no wonder the supply of customers has withered away to nothing.