100 hour inspections

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Fitzroy
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100 hour inspections

#1 Post by Fitzroy » Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:44 pm

Greetings, Does anyone besides those required to by law, do 100 hour inspections on their a/c. Specifically a legacy 172M. If you flew a couple hundred hours a year would you do one? Thanks.
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#2 Post by dirtdr » Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:58 pm

yup. I would do one
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ahramin
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#3 Post by ahramin » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:50 pm

Oil changes yes. Plug cleaning yes. Air filter changes yes. There are surely several more items that would be a good idea to follow time limits on. But take the plane apart and do a full 100 hour inspection? No way. You'll create more snags than you find.
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#4 Post by Fitzroy » Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:07 pm

The plane is co-owned and I am definitely on your side of thinking ahramin. Thanks for the comment.
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#5 Post by DonutHole » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:34 am

Im wondering about this AME who will create more snags than he will find while taking apart a legacy 172 to do a 100 hour inspection, if that is the case, I would avoid having any maintenance done until I found a new guy.

In a co-ownership, for a 172, a few hundred hours a year represents a significant chunk of flying. Im one of those guys who doesn't really trust others, so I would be inclined to have a 100 hour inspection done to ensure nothing embarrassing has occurred and then been covered up... but hey, it's your skin, and your tin.
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#6 Post by Fitzroy » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:54 am

It's an interesting topic for me. Clearly there are differing opinions on this. There is such a thing as maintenance induced failures. I think they can come about regardless of how meticulous and careful an AME is. You can't look without effecting, at least to a small degree, the thing your looking at. At some point it's ridiculous to say inspections shouldn't be made. But depending on the item, there is such a thing as too often. Feeling safe and being safe don't always line up. Sometimes they are quite different.

I wonder what a pilot could "cover up" that would remain hidden and dangerous that and only a 100 hour inspection would find. I apologize if this sounds like a challenge, it's not. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about this. I just don't subscribe to the more is always better philosophy. Thanks for your comments.
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#7 Post by iflyforpie » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:38 am

I think the issue is doing a full 100 hour between annuals. A CAR 625 APP B & C annual exceeds what is recommended for a 100 hour in the Cessna Service Manual.... so you aren't 'missing' anything if your plane only does 100 hours every four years.

But if you're doing 200 hours a year, no reason to tear apart the entire airplane halfway through the year to look at things like cables and fluid lines and structure that likely hasn't changed in six months. Not just to avoid potential maintenance issues, but to save wear and tear on seats, interiors, anchor nuts, paint, etc.

Hit the high points. Oil and filter, plugs, fluids, grease, and a good visual nspection of the engine, gear, and flight controls.
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#8 Post by ahramin » Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:15 am

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Re: 100 hour inspections

#9 Post by crazyaviator » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:44 pm

One of the keys to extending the time between thorough inspections is making a comprehensive written history of all aspects of the aircraft. Example, The LH aileron cable is worn moderately and was noted on the last annual . We all know it will take many hours to wear to limits IF conditions remain the same. We inspect these areas at intervals to assure safety and timely replacement . If a rudder cable, passing a pulley shows NO wear,,,why would we inspect it thoroughly every 50 hrs if environmental/operating conditions do not change? Targeted inspections only work well IF the A/C is properly maintained AND all items that are to be monitored are detailed in an A/C history log.
If a plane is taken to a NEW AME only after 50 hrs since its last annual , you can be sure it shall have a most thorough inspection. If the A/C records show a messy, incomplete, sporatic AD search history,, it WILL get a 4-8 hour comprehensive AD research and a good AMO will provide a proper report
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#10 Post by PilotDAR » Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:03 pm

I agree with Pie. For a single Cessna, and most other GA types, you can safely fly more than 100 hours between full inspections. However, a very adequate inspection can be performed by any observant, caring individual in an hour or so, without disassembly of the aircraft to the wear and tear, or put it back together wrong level. Honestly, 95% of what I care about for a "safe to fly" inspection can bee done with a good flashlight, pointed into the holes and gaps that the plane left the factory with.

I have the luxury that I am the only pilot who flies my planes, so if something is broken, I did it. That makes me a bit less concerned about what is broken, so it's mostly interest in deterioration, 'cause it won't be unreported damage.

However, If I'm flying a 172 in particular, for which the recent flights and pilots are an unknown, I want to look at the firewall, and nosegear attach - that's where 90% of unreported damage of a "hidden" nature would be found. Beyond that, it's a stressed skin plane, if someone stressed it too much, there'll be wrinkles.

Move all the flight controls, and feel and listen. Is anything binding, or lost motion? Is something clunking, chafing, or sawing its way through something else? If not, the chances of unsafe condition are lesser.

I have certainly performed post maintenance check flights, where the work accomplished had rendered the aircraft actually very dangerous, and had the daylights scared out of me. In each case, the "standard" walk around inspection would not have revealed the defect built in by the faulty maintenance, but if I had been paying more attention, particularly as a review of the maintenance accomplished, I probably would have caught it before it scared me.

A left off small inspection panel will not make a GA aircraft unsafe - as me how I know :oops:. But a misrigged flight control or missing fuel or oil system sure can. Learn what you would not like to be flying with, and then how to assure yourself that the plane you're about to fly does not have that problem. Your doing this as a matter of thorough preflight inspection is about 10% of the necessary elements of an annual inspection, and the most important 10% at that. If you are effective in these inspections, an aircraft can slip beyond 100 hour inspection intervals within the annual period, and likely be quite safe and legal....
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#11 Post by J31 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:41 am

I'm with the majority here as a full 100 hour inspection is not required but more than just oil changes.

As PilotDAR mention a lot can be visual checks.

If you are flying 200 hours per year then at 100 hours after the annual a AME would spend about 2-3 hours doing a service and inspection if nothing needed to be repaired or investigated.

Off the top of my head:

-Exhaust inspection
-Check the oil filter contents each filter change
-Check the suction oil screen (lycoming)
-Check the fuel sumps, belly sumps, and fuel strainer for debris and water
-Compression check and cylinder borescope
-Check tire tire condition and pressures
-Check brake condition
-Check nose oleo extension and damping
-Check the shimmy damper
-Check the nose wheel torque links
-Check the air filter
-Check the magneto timing
-Check the battery for water
-Test the ELT
-Check the engine bay for leaks, damage, and worn items like baffles, carb heat cable, throttle cable, mixture cable
-Check the alternator belt condition and tension
-Clean, gap and test the spark plugs
-Check seat tracks and seat operation
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#12 Post by Fitzroy » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:07 am

I thank you all for your continued comments. I would like to say that all pilots flying our a/c do so on a regular basis and have a large vested interest in them being well maintained. They want any discrepancy dealt with because they will be back to fly them again. Unfortunately what seems to happen is we tend to go overboard on some of our maintenance. I can think of 4 times in the past year where a plane has returned with defects of small associated items after the fix. None were show stoppers but they were defects never the less. Defects that didn't exist prior to the maintenance. Example, A ground wire left hanging near the mags after the mag inspections and RAN. Yes they were done right a 500 hours like they should have been but the ground wire was forgotten. It wasn't a P Lead and there was no problems. It was picked up during a walk around by one of our astute pilots. These "little" problems made me realize what many are saying here and that is, things are sometimes overlooked even by the best AME. You can't fix things without possibly breaking something.

Again many thanks for your insight.
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#13 Post by surferjoe » Sun May 15, 2016 5:24 pm

I also have a 172M that used to be a flight training aircraft. I now fly the plane as a private aircraft. Previously looking through the Journey Log there were 50 hour inspections required.
The question I have is does CARS require a 100 hour inspection or just an annual based on calendar months?
Fully aware that a thorough going over is cheap insurance but just want to know about the legal requirements.
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#14 Post by nbinont » Sun May 15, 2016 9:59 pm

surferjoe wrote:I now fly the plane as a private aircraft. The question I have is does CARS require a 100 hour inspection or just an annual based on calendar months?
Legally you require an annual inspection by the end of the 13th month from the month of the previous inspection. Plus you require compliance with any ADs for your aircraft/engine/prop (some may be recurrent - hour based). And pitot/static, ELT, compass swings, as applicable. As iflyforpie mentioned, CAR 625 spells it out in detail.
The 100hr/50hr inspections are usually commercial and/or commercial progressive maintenance schedules.
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#15 Post by photofly » Mon May 16, 2016 8:19 pm

I think in formal terms you have to follow whichever maintenance schedule the Minister has accepted. There's a blanket acceptance of CAR625 appendices B and C for privately operated small aircraft, but you actually need to declare that as your maintenance schedule (at the front of the journey log, typically) before it's acceptable.
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#16 Post by robertw » Wed May 18, 2016 9:04 am

Hi All,

It hasn't been mentioned at all here, but CAR 625 App. B is not to be used as an annual checklist as it's designed to be completely generic in nature, and is in no way specific to your aircraft type. It is the minimum requirement. You must supplement what is on that list with checklists from the OEM or other checklists that cover the specifics of your aircraft. Have a look at CAR 625. App. B General Procedures (10):
(10) This maintenance schedule is not an inspection checklist. Prior to performing the inspections tabled herein, an appropriate checklist containing these requirements must be developed.

Information Note:

(i) Many aircraft manufacturers produce detailed inspection checklists. In many cases the location of system components is clearly identified on those documents. In the interest of efficiency an owner may wish to use a manufacturers checklist in order to accomplish this inspection. Manufacturer's checklists may be used, provided they include at least the items listed in Part I or Part II of this appendix, as applicable. Where an owner has chosen to use a manufacturer's checklist, it should be clearly marked to indicate that the check is following the general maintenance schedule. In addition, any references in those checklists concerning compliance with Airworthiness Directives must be stricken out as not applicable, as it is the owner's responsibility to advise the AME of any outstanding Airworthiness Directives or airworthiness limitations.


Also, don't overlook item 10 on that list! (10) Miscellaneous Items Not Otherwise Covered by this Listing: This is going to mean all of your STC'd items and additional mods.

As far as not doing 100 / 200 hour inspections as specified by the OEM, I agree that you are not legally obliged to do them if they are not part of your approved maintenance schedule, but my thoughts are that if the OEM has taken the time to develop a schedule to inspect these items, there is probably a reason for it. If you are consistently going to defer looking at times because you don't want to introduce "maintenance induced snags" into your aircraft, I'd say you have an issue with the person conducting maintenance, not overzealous OEM requirements. Aircraft are designed (not in the best way all the time :roll: ) to be taken apart and inspected. It's what ensures the continued airworthiness of your aircraft.
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#17 Post by PilotDAR » Thu May 19, 2016 4:35 am

Robertw is correct about the requirement for a checklist unique to your aircraft. Though the CAR 625 Appendix B get you started, there will be other type specific inspection requirements which must be captured, and thereafter, may be inspection items required by modifications to the aircraft which are unknown to CAR 625 or the manufacturer. It is the aircraft owner's responsibility to assure that all of these are captured on one inspection checklist, and that the require supplemental instructions for continued airworthiness (ICAs) are provided to the maintainer.

My company is an STC holder, and it is pleasing to see that on occasion the owner or maintainer of an aircraft upon which my STC is installed will call me to confirm that my ICA is still current. A check for the validity of ICAs, like a check of ADs, forms a part of the annual (or other maintenance interval) exercise in assuring that maintenance is done correctly. Just as a pilot should assure that they have all of the correct and current documents before a flight, same thing for preparing for maintenance!
571.02 (1) Subject to subsection (2), a person who performs maintenance or elementary work on an aeronautical product shall use the most recent methods, techniques, practices, parts, materials, tools, equipment and test apparatuses that are
My bold
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#18 Post by Badfarmer » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:38 pm

J31 wrote:I'm with the majority here as a full 100 hour inspection is not required but more than just oil changes.

As PilotDAR mention a lot can be visual checks.

If you are flying 200 hours per year then at 100 hours after the annual a AME would spend about 2-3 hours doing a service and inspection if nothing needed to be repaired or investigated.

Off the top of my head:

-Exhaust inspection
-Check the oil filter contents each filter change
-Check the suction oil screen (lycoming)
-Check the fuel sumps, belly sumps, and fuel strainer for debris and water
-Compression check and cylinder borescope
-Check tire tire condition and pressures
-Check brake condition
-Check nose oleo extension and damping
-Check the shimmy damper
-Check the nose wheel torque links
-Check the air filter
-Check the magneto timing
-Check the battery for water
-Test the ELT
-Check the engine bay for leaks, damage, and worn items like baffles, carb heat cable, throttle cable, mixture cable
-Check the alternator belt condition and tension
-Clean, gap and test the spark plugs
-Check seat tracks and seat operation
Dont forget to review the repetitive ADs, they usually have operational time limits imposed; specifically CF90-03R2, 2011-10-09.
And, if you are flying that much I would put money aside for an engine O/H even though not legally required - better safe than sorry.....
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#19 Post by robertw » Tue May 29, 2018 1:34 pm

nbinont wrote:
Sun May 15, 2016 9:59 pm

Legally you require an annual inspection by the end of the 13th month from the month of the previous inspection.
I don't think the statement above is actually correct. CAR 625.86(2)(a) says this...

"(a) As applicable to the type of aircraft, at intervals not to expire later than the last day of the 12th month, following the preceding inspection, Part I and Part II of the Maintenance Schedule detailed in Appendix B of these standards are approved by the Minister for use on other than large aircraft, turbine-powered pressurized aeroplanes, airships, any aeroplane or helicopter operated by a flight training unit under CAR 406, or any aircraft operated by air operators under CAR Part VII."
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#20 Post by photofly » Tue May 29, 2018 6:07 pm

Same thing - thirteenth month including the month of inspection, and 12 months from the month following.

Seems to me there are two classes of 172.

Firstly flight school airplanes that have a 100 hours inspection as part of a 50,100,200 hour schedule every month or so, where every fastener is new, every fitting has been removed within the last three momths, and the engine is only a couple of years old. There should be no maintenance induced maintenance there.

Then there are owner-flown planes that fly 50 hours per year, all the fasteners are stuck, nothing has been removed since it was last replaced nine years ago, and the engine is nearly two decades old. Try taking the exhaust manifold off one of those without shearing a stud.

Of course with sufficient input of $$$ you can convert the second class of 172 in the first class.
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#21 Post by twotter » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:46 pm

For all of you "experts" on here, remember, it's your ass in the airplane when something breaks that would have been found with a proper inspection by a qualified AME. It just never ceases to amaze me what a bunch of experts we have out here who have never actually been involved in the maintenance end of aviation. How much experience do you guys/gals have with MRB's? Are you all familiar with all the ICA's for any STC's on your airplane? Do you know that just because CAR625 says you only have to do certain items every 12 months, it does not exclude you from any requirements from any applicable AD's??

Just remember, your insurance company will find any excuse to not pay you out and if there are any questions that can't be answered about your maintenance, you may not be insured.

Please consult your local AMO for more information..
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#22 Post by photofly » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:55 pm

Gosh. AD's. Who would a thunk of them. Thanks for the heads up.
How much experience do you guys/gals have with MRB's?
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#23 Post by digits_ » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:08 pm

twotter wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:46 pm
Just remember, your insurance company will find any excuse to not pay you out and if there are any questions that can't be answered about your maintenance, you may not be insured.
While this sounds believable -and I was convinced this was the case as well-, it is not completely true. I've been, unfortunately, a close witness to multiple insurance claims -not caused by me-. Other than a cursory "send us a copy of the XX hour check", there was no in depth check of the maintenance records, looking for the little typo in the records that would invalidate the claim.

It seems that the insurance companies are not trying to pursue to look for obscure maintenance tasks that have not been completed. Maybe that will change in the future, who knows. The evil "insurance companies are not going to pay out", surprisingly, seems to be incorrect. Although, the claims were claims for damaged small planes only, no multi million dollar pax died kind of things, those might be handled differently, but that's not the scoop of this topic.

Some other thoughts that have been written down on this forum in other topics:
- you can pick any random airplane and find issues with the paperwork if you look hard enough
- to successfully refuse a claim based on maintenance errors, the error would have to been directly related to the cause of the cras, and they'd have to find the error and proof that the actual task was not performed, not just a paper error.

I admit I have no reference for the second part, but it seems to hold up in conversation with more knowledgeable people.
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Re: 100 hour inspections

#24 Post by PilotDAR » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:24 pm

Just remember, your insurance company will find any excuse to not pay you out and if there are any questions that can't be answered about your maintenance, you may not be insured.
This has not been my experience with aircraft insurance, for my limited involvement with aviation insurance companies, I have been treated very reasonably. I have found that insurers do their investigation, and look for fault or deficiency, though with decreasing perseverance as it becomes further away from the cause of the claim. That's fair. My experience with auto insurance has left me watching my back against them!

But, yes, the responsibilities of the aircraft owner and pilot when it comes to maintenance are poorly trained, and apparently mostly learned by expense, and asking questions afterward. I'm not sure that pilots and owners have much need of understanding AMO Material Review Boards, but yes, ICA's and AD's are pretty vital to understand. It is the owner's responsibility to maintain all the ICA's up to date, and provide them with the aircraft when contracting maintenance. A maintenance program document, updated at least annually, is a really good help for this, and AD applicability.

Understanding the condition of your aircraft, and the effects, and side effects of repairs and modification you elect to conduct, is also important. Dortant you realize that the AMO you select will have to evaluate any STC mod you choose, against those already on the aircraft, and account for any conflict which may be possible between them? This can be a much more important that you think, when there is a conflict. The mod you just paid for, is not going to signed off, and the plane is grounded until a further evaluation, and possibly an approval is issued. This could be as simple as two different Flight Manual Supplements, whose contents conflict with each other. Or, two mods which are interdependent, and someone removes one, not realizing that it is required by the one which remains. Float installations, and their associated systems change are an example. I once test flew a 185 as a floatplane, which I had flown on wheels before the changeover. On floats, it was horribly unstable in yaw. I landed it, and grounded it (at a dock in Yellowknife). I asked to see the float installation drawings, suspecting that the absence of any ventral fin was the problem. Nope, no ventral fin specified for that installation. What then? The drawings made reference to a Cessna part number spring kit, without describing it. Sure enough, the parts catalog showed it, the airplane did not! The owner had to source the kit, and have the mechanic fly back up from Calgary to install it. I charged my daily rate to wait those days (or else I would have had to fly home and return). Somewhere between the owner, and the installer, someone should have known what the installation required.

There's a lot to know to be your own Director of Maintenance, and no training program for it. As our fleet ages, the need for maintenance will increase, and the source of repair parts become less certain. It's a good time to get to know what your airplane needs, and will need in the years to come.
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