0-320 OH

[cap41]

I get people quoting anywhere from 20K-30K.

Can someone please give a decent estimate of both over hauling a 0-320. As well as the cost of buying one new.

I would like to know labour in time to remove old engine, and re install new/OH engine.

Also could you ballpark the time one can expect their plane to be on the ground?

thx

[l_reason]

It will be a 6 hour drive each way to drop it off in Brocklyn MI. Give Kline Engines a call 1-517-592-2316

If you can buy an engine in the states you can have yours rebuilt there.

[cgzro]

couple of days to remove, couple to put back.

The OH quote should specify what items will be new.
its possible to OH with mostly old parts at lower cost than using new parts.
Fir example you could reuse cam and lifters and save a few grand but personally Id spring for new camshaft and lifters.

My advice is to spend money on bottom end but its ok to save a few bucks on cylinders and accessories etc as they are cheap to replace later if necessary while the bottom end is expensive to repair.

[cgzro]

BTW I used PennYan for my IO360 and was very happy although it was not cheap as I ended up with a new case and roller lifters.

[cap41]

Thanks for the advice, looking for ballpark money figures.

[Chris M]

We were recently given a rough estimate of $25K for our 172's O-320. Not a quote, just a mechanic's "Ya, we charge about $25K for those" estimate.

[5x5]

Thanks for the advice, looking for ballpark money figures.

You already have a ballpark.

I get people quoting anywhere from 20K-30K.

What you need to do now is put in a bit of effort and call shops/rebuilders and get actual estimates/quotes. Asking on an internet forum you will simply get anecdotal evidence that the $20-$30k range is "the ballpark".

[Taiser]

Yep 20-30K... all depends what they can "salvage" from your current engine. I'd say plan for the high end... if the crank and cam aren't in spec anymore that's where you'll be... crank alone can be 5 to 7K!!!

This site will give you an idea...

http://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/ ... rodID=9724

[Strega]

Once again I am always astonished by the outrageous prices field overhaul shops get away with charging...

Below is a list of what I just spent (usd) for a wide deck 320 for a cherokee....
4 NEW cylinders $5000 (with new wrist pins)
Case overhaul from divco is $800
If everything in your bottom end is decent (re-workable), expect another for :
Cam $160
Lifters $250 (Although some people say "you have to buy a new cam and lifters.... this is BS When re worked PROPERLY, they are just as good as new, unless there is a "magic" machine shop that makes them in the first place...)
rods $400
rocker arms $250
Crank $435
MPI of all internal gears and metalics $100

Bearings and bolts budget $1000

The above list is just over $8000 USD... Where does the other 15-20k "if everthing is good 25-30k" come from?? Labor? Shipping? rotflmao....

FYI for another $300 or so, ASI will balance your crank and rods... SMOOOOOTH
Im not making this stuff up!

Do a bit of homework, and you will wind up with a way better engine, cheaper...

[cgzro]

i suspect insurance is not cheap. i think much of the outrageous costs of GA come from the litigation costs of the past 20 years.

On the topic of being paid a "fair wage" .. i am not sure supply and demand has any such concept. For example we sell billions in telecom equipment and our customers dont expect to pay a fair price, rather they try every trick in the book to get as cheap as possible even to the point of driving some out of buisness. Most buisness is cut throat .. be nice if it were not. Bunch of our customers just got together in a sort of coup to slash prices world wide, not fair but it is buisness.

[robertw]

Once again I am always astonished by the outrageous prices field overhaul shops get away with charging...

Below is a list of what I just spent (usd) for a wide deck 320 for a cherokee....
4 NEW cylinders $5000 (with new wrist pins)
Case overhaul from divco is $800
If everything in your bottom end is decent (re-workable), expect another for :
Cam $160
Lifters $250 (Although some people say "you have to buy a new cam and lifters.... this is BS When re worked PROPERLY, they are just as good as new, unless there is a "magic" machine shop that makes them in the first place...)
rods $400
rocker arms $250
Crank $435
MPI of all internal gears and metalics $100

Bearings and bolts budget $1000

The above list is just over $8000 USD... Where does the other 15-20k "if everthing is good 25-30k" come from?? Labor? Shipping? rotflmao....

FYI for another $300 or so, ASI will balance your crank and rods... SMOOOOOTH
Im not making this stuff up!

Do a bit of homework, and you will wind up with a way better engine, cheaper...

Wow. Where do these prices come from? They seem right out of a Disney movie. Cam $160, Lifters $250, rods $400
rocker arms $250, Crank $435? Come on... Are these all parts that came from a wrecker and are not traceable to the last airworthy installation? MPI of all internal gears and metalics $100? That's about 1 hour labour at an AMO (NDT is specialized maintenance you know ) and barely enough time to warm up the mag particle machine. I guess they didn't pre-clean, inspect, post clean and document your results? Who did the work for you? Snow White and her 7 dwarves? Obviously they didn't charge you any labour to overhaul your engine.

The 15-20k charged by a reputable overhaul shop are completely justified as doing things right as per applicable regulations costs money. Properly repaired and certified parts cost money. Labour costs money.

How much did you pay the engineer to install and release that engine for you? $125.00? Oh wait... That's right an engineer can't do that for you. Only an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer can.

[photofly]

A quick online search revealed an O-320 crank on sale at $4.5k. Was the $435 figure to have the old one checked?

[Strega]

PF - The prices quoted are for re-work of your existing stuff... Re read my message.

"if everything in your bottom end is decent (re-workable), expect another for :"

I just had this work done. This is what it costs... Even if you pay 40hrs labor how can you arrive at 25-30k "if everything is ok"?

Trust me, I do understand what a new crank, or cam and lifters cost.. Ive bought many over the years when you get nice little red tag on your existing stuff...

[Strega]

I want an engineer to do some stress analysis for me. I'll provide the calculator, plus pen and paper. Free or better.

I know this is somehow aimed at a jab to me.. not really sure what your point is....

[Strega]

The 15-20k charged by a reputable overhaul shop are completely justified as doing things right as per applicable regulations costs money. Properly repaired and certified parts cost money. Labour costs money.

Those prices are from Aircraft Specialties inc, and Divco in Ok. They are "certified"

I dont understand how "overhaul shops" can continue to soak people...

Add it up! how can you arrive at 25-30k can funds for an overhauled 320, when the rework to NEW limits, and NEW cylinders is around 11k can? ok throw in a new slick kit, and OH'd carb for another 4k can.. we are at $15k can,, youre telling me an AME needs 10-15k to do this work? (@$100/hr that is 100-150 hrs) I call Bullshit....

[PilotDAR]

Perhaps Stega will gather together these low cost services, and with an AME, start providing top quality engine overhauls for the low prices he suggests.

Until then, a reputable AMO, who provides a quote for the work is the most dependable time ans cost efficient maintainer of an engine. AME's can do it too, but do they stock all the parts, and have the facilities? Or are you going to have to wait, and/or cut corners?

To qualify as overhauled, all accessories have to be overhauled or replaced too.... Carb, mags, alternator, starter, vacuum pump at least, maybe governor, and a gasket set....... There's certainly a few thousand in additional costs, plus their re & re labour......

[cgzro]

I am certain that a large part of this bill covers liability insurance to the person signing.

The only complaint I have had concerning overhauls is the kick back practice where mechanic A will recommened shop B to do the work, shop B pays mechanic A a kick back for the recommendation. This results in mechanic A biasing towards the shops that give the hightest kickback as opposed to the best service.

I raised this on the previous thread on this subject and several mechanics thought it was perfectly acceptable, meanwhile in my own company and most other big companies its a firable offense and considered a form of corruption.

Anyway as with all buisness transactions the buyer must beware. Get multiple quotes, do it directly yourself. This will ensure you spot outlier type costs.

Use an OH company like PennYan or other large reputable shop. They should provide a 2-3 year warranty on their work and will give you a very detailed part by part quote.

[Hornblower]

To qualify as overhauled, all accessories have to be overhauled or replaced too.... Carb, mags, alternator, starter, vacuum pump at least, maybe governor, and a gasket set....... There's certainly a few thousand in additional costs, plus their re & re labour......

That's not exactly true, notwithstanding that most engine shops/AMOs do it that way.

The O-320 O/H manual does not specify overhaul requirements for accessories. And most engines do not come with anything other than the stuff required to run them in a test cell. Alternators, governors, vaccuum pumps almost never come with an O-320. As well, since many overhaul their mags at 500-1000 hrs, there really is no reason to overhaul them either, especially if they have been recently replaced. However I recognize that since an engine shop has to run the engine in a test cell, they kinda need to have a set of mags, and are usually happy to sell you an exchange set. Why would you replace or overhaul for no reason a perfectly good (non time expired) prop governor?

[PilotDAR]

It's true that the engine overhaul manual might not require that accessories be overhauled at engine overhaul, though the accessory or airframe maintenance manual might. Yes, the engine shop is probably willing to overhaul only what the minimum requires, but is that wise? Do you really want to invest in the "as is" accessories being installed back on the engine, then back into the airplane? They just become something which goes wrong early, and causes out of phase maintenance to be required. What does the airframe manual say about engine control cable replacement?

If you're budgeting an engine overhaul without performing the maintenance on the related systems, you're just cheating yourself.

[Hornblower]

Not really, lots of stuff on the airplane , any airplane really, is done/maintained outside major inspection intervals. A whole bunch of maintenance schedules I've had approved for employers, have significantly long lists of OOP items, including engine installed items. Never would replace something that is not near TBO simply because some other component (like the engine) is at TBO. Can't make money that way (or operate a private aircraft economically for that matter)