0-320 OH

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PilotDAR
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Re: 0-320 OH

#26 Post by PilotDAR » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:04 pm

Are you suggesting that re installing 200 hr since new magnetos into a O smoh engine is cutting corners, and or "deferring" maintenance?
Yes, I am. But not in the sense that the aircraft is any less airworthy, but rather than in the sense that you are reinstalling mags with 300 hours left on them before their OH is required. 'Might be poor economy. In fairness to many aircraft, that is a few years of flying, so go for it. But on a heavily used aircraft, it may not be worth the sooner re & re. It's up to the owner to rationalize the expense, but not pretend that it does not exist....
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Re: 0-320 OH

#27 Post by PilotDAR » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:47 pm

What might you suggest you do with a magneto with 300 hrs since new?
I suggest to myself to overhaul it, if it's off anyway. For the small cost, it's not worth the risk of having to remove it later if it goes bad early - which has happened to me, and at least on other contributor here. Others can do as they want, but those others are deceiving themselves, if they think they should not budget for accessory overhaul during engine overhaul.
I think its clear to me you have never had to do a p&l for a business....
I'm glad it's clear to you, 'cause I have no idea what you're talking about....

My business is an aviation service, and prior to that I worked for eight years in an engine and accessory overhaul shop. I saw a lot of things which taught me to do the maintenance, rather than wishing I had while flying over the trees at night. I maintain my planes with the "if in doubt, do it" approach. Others are of course, free to comply with the maintenance requirements for the aircraft and engine as they wish.... They're not flying my planes, and I'm not flying theirs!

New owners who would gather information here should not leave with false illusions about aircraft maintenance and costs. The aircraft must be maintained airworthy, and the people in the industry who provide those services would like to be fairly paid.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#28 Post by PilotDAR » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:38 pm

I put just about $150 hr into my engine reserve fund
Very wise! I had a friend decades ago who was similarly disciplined with his Aztec. He eventually had enough saved to buy a brand new engine as a spare, which he did. It sat ready to go at any time, so that any down time would be minimized.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#29 Post by ruddersup? » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:51 pm

Private operators never need to overhaul, just repair. Most engines die in the tie down so repair until the repair becomes more expensive than an overhaul. However if you plan on selling then o/h otherwise repair. The average joe has no concept of "repair" and would make it a difficult sell.
Commercially I had all accessories and cylinders on condition, this means that we could go past manufacturers suggested overhaul life. We would monitor the components and then repair when necessary. Repairs were made to a level that would anticipate the same reliability that an overhaul would provide. I know you could jump on this statement but used parts installed were "good". Of course we had to overhaul or purchase new occasionally to upgrade the inventory. I would only overhaul the bottom end of the engine, put used cylinders on, used accessories, used plugs etc. and break it in on the aircraft by flying it.
This should get some comments.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#30 Post by PilotDAR » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:40 pm

"Good" as it applies to aircraft engine parts hopefully implies that the parts were obtained as traceable and airworthy, and at least within "service" limits, if not new limits. To qualify an overhaul, there could be a requirement to install new parts, regardless of their size/wear.

But the aircraft owner can elect to repair rather than overhaul if they wish. Someone who's "on top" of their aircraft might be willing to risk having to take it apart again shortly, or have a part let go inside. I suggest that may not be the best approach for the conservative owner. Having an exhaust valve go wrong can be really inconvenient, and then expensive.

When I overhauled my O-200 years ago, it had more than 3500 hours at the time. I split it, as it was making a tiny amount of ferrous metal I could not account for. I found no impending failures, and just one dimension very slightly under serviceable limits. Easy rework. But, the cost to go from "repair" to "overhaul" was a bit over $1000 in new parts. That's what I had the AMO do for me. I tagged and retained the replaced parts, just in case I ever would like to reuse them, but otherwise, I have peace of mind. I would really rather not be repairing the engine regularly to save some cost. But other might, and that's okay, as long as the requirements are met.

That said, I have a great amount of experience with Continental starters. If starter repair has been found to be required, new parts, or at least sizes, throughout. Those parts wear quickly when getting into service limit range, and when they fail because of wear it's bad. I would never reinstall "good" Continental starter parts, they'd have to be new sizes to satisfy me.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#31 Post by Chris M » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:56 am

For what it's worth, we were just quoted $25,500 (with tax) to overhaul our O-320-E2D. This would include new cylinders, slick mags, cam, cam followers and overhauled carb, as well as all the usual NDT and labour.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#32 Post by cap41 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:07 pm

Chris M wrote:For what it's worth, we were just quoted $25,500 (with tax) to overhaul our O-320-E2D. This would include new cylinders, slick mags, cam, cam followers and overhauled carb, as well as all the usual NDT and labour.

Did that include the removal and re installation of the engine? Thanks for the reply.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#33 Post by crazyaviator » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:42 pm

Been reading it takes up to 3 days to Re-RE an 0-320 ,,, Anymore than 16 hours to do this and me thinks they are sniffing too much glue :lol:
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Re: 0-320 OH

#34 Post by robertw » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:57 pm

crazyaviator wrote:Been reading it takes up to 3 days to Re-RE an 0-320 ,,, Anymore than 16 hours to do this and me thinks they are sniffing too much glue :lol:
Usually shops have more than one guy working on a job like that. Could be 2 or 3X more labour than that.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#35 Post by Chris M » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:18 pm

cap41 wrote:
Chris M wrote:For what it's worth, we were just quoted $25,500 (with tax) to overhaul our O-320-E2D. This would include new cylinders, slick mags, cam, cam followers and overhauled carb, as well as all the usual NDT and labour.

Did that include the removal and re installation of the engine? Thanks for the reply.
No, that's just the engine rebuild. We'll be doing to re-and-re ourselves. There's also things like an inspection for the engine mount, new mount bushings, assorted hoses... Probably a few thousand worth of other stuff. The plane is all original at the moment ('74 172M with 2300 hours) so things are in need of a good going over.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#36 Post by cgzro » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:53 pm

As a point of reference, the labour costs for the removal, shipping, receiving, reinstallation of my 360 was about $4k.
Thats more complex because its constant speed with inverted oil so knock off about 1k and I would not be surprised at a $3k bill for remove/ship/install.

Its possible to spend quite a bit of time getting all the hoses/fittings/wires/baffling etc. just right and its not something you want to botch up. Also that bill did not include the new motor mounts and new hoses etc. which I purchased separately and provided to the shop.

My guess is your shop can very accurately estimate the labor cost. They have likely done it hundreds of times and know exactly how long it will take on average.

Unfortunately its expensive. You can likely help reduce the costs, especially on the removal.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#37 Post by OntheNumbers » Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:08 pm

I'm curious how sensitive that overhaul price is to the exchange rate. The $ now is a lot lower than it was when this thread was started and I think most/all parts need to come from the U$A
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Re: 0-320 OH

#38 Post by crazyaviator » Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:40 pm

How is it that a pilot can demand 120,000 for a LH seat in a king air and yet the 25 year veteran overhauling your engine for you is not worth half that in your opinion ?
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Re: 0-320 OH

#39 Post by Chris M » Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:12 am

OntheNumbers wrote:I'm curious how sensitive that overhaul price is to the exchange rate. The $ now is a lot lower than it was when this thread was started and I think most/all parts need to come from the U$A
We just received our overhauled O-320 on Thursday at a total cost of $23,362.37. From our initial quote back in November the price went up about $1800 due to the collapse of the dollar.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#40 Post by Chris M » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:10 am

Here's the basic breakdown of the invoice:

Labour: $4,950
Parts: $15,388
Shop supplies: $336
Tax: $2687

The big ticket items for the parts were the cylinders ($7155), mags ($2750), and cam and lifter kit ($2181).
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Re: 0-320 OH

#41 Post by Rookie50 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:40 am

Strega wrote:You asked me why I wanted to know.. I posted the answer.

It is entirely up to the poster with the new engine to decide whos business the bill is.. not yours.

It's a somewhat common irritation I see, especially in Canada, and I'm using you as an example, Strega. Complain about the price of something, opine what it "should" be, my answer is always the same:

Open a competitive service then. Start something, create something from scratch. But that involves a lot more effort than whining, doesn't it? Like courage, for one. Running a business, costs money, Strega. Maybe that little fact doesn't reach all the way into the mind of an "engineer".

For all the blood sweat knowledge and tears, for the AME business, I have no issue paying $XXX for quality work.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#42 Post by Strega » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:39 pm

What cylinders did you buy for $7100 Canadian? (non inclusive of tax)

FYI you can buy ECI Steel cylinders for $951 USD.... So this works out to $5300 Canadian funds for a set of 4 (non inclusive of tax)

Lycoming units (Im guessing you didnt buy them) are slightly more at $1256 USD so this works out to $7000 Can funds for a set (again non inclusive of tax) (I used 1 USD = 1.4 Can dollars here)
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Re: 0-320 OH

#43 Post by Chris M » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:00 pm

Everything inside the engine is Lycoming, mags are Bendix.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#44 Post by Strega » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:07 pm

Its nice to see then you dont have an overhaul shop simply padding the bill simply buying parts..

PS why did you choose lycoming cylinders? Not that there is anything wrong with them,, just curious...
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Re: 0-320 OH

#45 Post by crazyaviator » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:57 pm

Labour: $4,950
Parts: $15,388
Shop supplies: $336
Tax: $2687
50 hours of labour to O/H an 0-320 Must feed the shop techs kraft dinner and house them in the warehouse out back !!!!!!!!

The same A/C owner goes out and buys a $60,000 boat and takes a $25,000.00 vacation but cannot come to terms to provide an income for aviation personnel SAD! :cry:
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Re: 0-320 OH

#46 Post by Strega » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:58 pm

50 hours of labour to O/H an 0-320
you realize that is over a week of working 8hrs per day.... This is just for the engine overhaul... not the R and R
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Re: 0-320 OH

#47 Post by crazyaviator » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:40 pm

How many engines have you overhauled Strega ????? 0 ? 1 ? or more than 1
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Re: 0-320 OH

#48 Post by photofly » Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:53 am

crazyaviator wrote:
The same A/C owner goes out and buys a $60,000 boat and takes a $25,000.00 vacation but cannot come to terms to provide an income for aviation personnel SAD! :cry:
I don't think this particular owner was complaining about the cost.

But, no, in general, people paying for a good or service shouldn't and don't justify doing so in terms of providing an income for people. Except when they buy from a charity employing the, er, challenged. I'm sure you don't want AMEs to be thought of in that way.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#49 Post by Chris M » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:12 am

Strega wrote:Its nice to see then you dont have an overhaul shop simply padding the bill simply buying parts..

PS why did you choose lycoming cylinders? Not that there is anything wrong with them,, just curious...
It's a club plane so I'm not the only decision maker, but in large part it was because the engine made 2300 hours and 42 years on it's first run, so why mess with what works? (I know some people will say that's a pointless statement because Lycoming has made plenty of changes to their manufacturing over the past 42 years, but it's what made people here happy.)
crazyaviator wrote:50 hours of labour to O/H an 0-320 Must feed the shop techs kraft dinner and house them in the warehouse out back !!!!!!!!

The same A/C owner goes out and buys a $60,000 boat and takes a $25,000.00 vacation but cannot come to terms to provide an income for aviation personnel SAD! :cry:
We didn't negotiate the terms of the quote. We asked for an overhaul, got a number, found it competitive with other shops and went for it. The only thing we requested were the Bendix mags in place of the Slick ones the shop originally suggested. What was paid to the guys doing the work was the shop's decision, not ours.

And Strega is correct, that's only labour on the overhaul. We're handling the R&R with our mechanic.
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Re: 0-320 OH

#50 Post by Strega » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:18 am

crazyaviator wrote:How many engines have you overhauled Strega ????? 0 ? 1 ? or more than 1

Lots... enough to know it does not take 50hrs of labor to do...
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