Paying the cost of flying

[PilotDAR]

A few threads recently have tended suggested that some owners and pilots are reluctant to pay the cost to operate aircraft. I see squawks about what some AME's charge, I read pilots looking for cheap flying, I hear people looking for deals in aviation.

Like some here, I earn my living in aviation. I'm happy with it, I'm not silly rich, but my bills are paid, and life is comfortable. Some of my work ends up more profitable than I quote, and to my valued customers, I return the difference. Other jobs go over budget, and I have never charged more than I quoted, I ate the difference. When TC comes to audit me, or questions something, and drives the cost up, I don't change any more, that's my cost of doing business - but, I choose my jobs, I turn away clients who might not happily pay, or jobs with a poor chance of a happy client and happy me at the end.

A few clients have offered me decent tips at the end of a job, or other appreciated opportunities, and I have sometimes willingly over paid for a service. I have never not been paid as agreed for work I have done. A couple of jobs I have done for free, for reasons of my intended generosity.

When someone indicates that they are unhappy to properly pay for a person's work in aviation (or any industry) everyone just got unhappy. It's fair to consider the price quoted by a service provider, and quietly decline the quote if you can't agree to it (afford it). If that happens a lot that service provider might change their rates - or business!

I'm proud to be a member of this small industry, let alone a 40 year member. I hope that I am surrounded by people who are happy with their aviation relationship with me. I've met a few service providers who pretty well shot themselves in the business foot by alienating too many clients in one way or another. I don't see them around much. But, the vast majority of service providers I find are working hard to leave a long list of happy clients, satisfied with their work, and business relationships.

Like AME's, owners and aircraft are not as anonymous as they might think. I certainly "hear things". Most I ignore, though I do retain the occasional caution about dealing with someone. Bottom line, if you would like to fly, understand the reasonable costs, and be honestly happy to pay them. We are so lucky to fly so economically in Canada! Cherish that, don't complain about what little cost there, is compared to about everywhere else on earth I know to fly. If your flying is too costly for you, buy a less expensive plane! Lots of owners I have known have done that, or traded down. In any case complaining, or asking for a deal is just not the mature thing to do. If you ask me for a deal after I quote, I'll probably decline the work. I've already quoted the work fairly, suggesting otherwise tends to insult me!

You don't sit down in a restaurant and try to negotiate the price on the menu, you politely pay it, and tip all but the very least effective server. Please treat your chosen aviation service provider at least as well as that!

[Rookie50]

PD,

I couldn't agree more. Quality is worth a fair price, and a quality service relationship is priceless. Both sides should be happy to continue a productive partnership.

I am in a different industry where my business is not open to the public. For now though I do a ton of free consulting / sharing of my experience on another (business) site. That may change to a paid consulting model in the future, and in that industry too, many do not want to pay what a professional is worth.

[Chris M]

You don't sit down in a restaurant and try to negotiate the price on the menu...

I've met a few who try...

Having worked in a few automotive shops I'm no longer surprised how far people are willing to push to "get the best deal". I can appreciate being frugal and being averse to unnecessary spending, but when someone is performing a service you're not just paying for their time right now. You're paying for their knowledge and experience that they've gained through years of work and learning. In the automotive world diagnostics is where this is the most apparent. A customer will be quoted X hours to diagnose a no-start problem. It will end up taking a fair bit longer. The customer will want to pay half, because "my buddy can do it for me".

If I had a dollar for every time a "my buddy fixed it" came in to be re-repaired....

If you want a few hours worth of entertaining pictures: http://imgur.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/

[Heliian]

typically, people with aircraft have money, they amassed their fortunes by being frugal and screwing other people over. It's no different now that they have money, they still don't want to spend it. Don't like the prices, go somewhere else. I can assure you that I do not waste time with these types of people. Eventually, after trying to find someone else to screw over and failing to do so, they'll come back to you and pay the fair price you laid out originally.

[Taiser]

Never had a problem with what AME's charge for labor. Problem is airplanes ARE expensive! There are some small ways to cut the costs but regardless it's still prohibitively expensive. I thought going amateur built would curtail the costs... nope! Not for the initial outlay anyways... I will save on the maintenance by doing it myself (luckily I have an AME background that lets me do that) but I could have bought a well equipped 172 or 180 for what I sunk into my homebuilt! But I still use approved parts on everything, just for piece of mind.

It's not the AME's or their fees that kill, most I've seen charge less than a car mechanic, at least around here, sometimes way less and the engines are usually pretty straightforward to work on, at least the general fleet stuff. What kills are 4 cylinder engines that cost more to buy than most decent cars, along with the parts needed after! Need a small carb rebuilt, 1000$, need a mag, 1000$, need some SCAT tube, 20$/ft, need a certified throttle cable for a Cessna, $300!!! Seems like everywhere I used to call to get a part, 80% answer was "about a thousand bucks"!!! It's only going to get worse with the government implementing all the new airport rules, GA is going to kick the bucket sooner than later and all us private folks will be stuck flying RC planes to get our fix!

$30+k for a 4 cylinder engine designed in the 1940's is beyond insane! The new engines aren't any better. Rotax charges about 40k for a "certified" engine, but the uncertified ones go for about $3k less... really? Explain that to me! I thought the certification WAS the reason the cost was so much...

Lot of uncertified engines coming in to the market now as well... UL, Jabiru, etc... they cost as much as certified? Why, what am I paying for then? Seems like they price themselves that way just because they can with a closed market and little competition. Be nice if there was more interest from other manufacturers but litigation probably doesn't make guys like Honda too interested in making airplane engines...

I'd give my left nut for somebody like Honda, Suzuki or Yamaha to design and come up with an air-cooled aircraft engine! But the certification process way beyond what they would want to invest, so we are stuck with 50 year old engines that belch oil and foul plugs because they were "certified" decades ago and are the only game in town...

[Broken Slinky]

typically, people with aircraft have money, they amassed their fortunes by being frugal and screwing other people over.

Adding this to the top 100 most asinine statements I've read.

[Rookie50]

typically, people with aircraft have money, they amassed their fortunes by being frugal and screwing other people over.

Adding this to the top 100 most asinine statements I've read.

+ 1. And that belief is a big reason why most people will never "have money" -- whatever that means anyway.

Most I know with money are wise, but also are incredibly generous.

[Heliian]

Typically.

[Heliian]

Adding this to the top 100 most asinine statements I've read.

Now you're being assinine.

[Broken Slinky]

Adding this to the top 100 most asinine statements I've read.

Now you're being assinine.

I know you are but what am I? If that is your opinion of aircraft owners and people with money, you truly are a fool.

[Strega]

I am happy to pay good money, for good service...

In Canada, AMEs (mechanics) seem to think they have some special place,, and need to charge and charge and charge to do little, or no work.

Paying 5k for an annual inspection "because I need to get familiar with the plane" is along the same lines as a paying a pilot to fly a 150 100k per year

I can tell a story about an $4000 oil change in my 340... no work was done other than the oil change... messed up I tell ya...

[PilotDAR]

typically, people with aircraft have money, they amassed their fortunes by being frugal and screwing other people over. It's no different now that they have money, they still don't want to spend it.

Hmmm, 'Not sure I entirely agree - too much generalization. More commonly, some people who have planes have bought more plane than they can really afford, and hope for a "deal" to support their continued flying. Our industry should encourage ownership, and more flying, but has to stop short of funding it, other than for acts of individual kindness (Young Eagles comes to mind).

[Strega]

Good point...

I have taken countless people, and kids on flights, for free...

How many AMEs have shown 12 yr old kids how to change oil?

[DonutHole]

No 12 year Olds but at least 15 pilots

[Rookie50]

No 12 year Olds but at least 15 pilots

How much did you charge them?

"Consulting"

[DonutHole]

It took some two or three tries. So enough for a large sailboat.

[Meecka]

Good point...

I have taken countless people, and kids on flights, for free...

How many AMEs have shown 12 yr old kids how to change oil?

I've shown several pilots how to do their oil changes, and other maintenance items, and haven't charged them a dime. Maybe a beer afterward, that's about it. Maybe, just maybe, not all of us are the money hungry, lazy, arrogant douches you seem to think we are. I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences dealing with AMEs, but we are not all like that.

[Strega]

I've shown several pilots how to do their oil changes, and other maintenance items, and haven't charged them a dime. Maybe a beer afterward, that's about it. Maybe, just maybe, not all of us are the money hungry, lazy, arrogant douches you seem to think we are. I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences dealing with AMEs, but we are not all like that.

Good to hear! I wish more AMEs share your attitude.

Unfortunately, my experience (for the most part) is most AMEs that work on GA aircraft in Canada fall into your description..

[DonutHole]

I've shown several pilots how to do their oil changes, and other maintenance items, and haven't charged them a dime. Maybe a beer afterward, that's about it. Maybe, just maybe, not all of us are the money hungry, lazy, arrogant douches you seem to think we are. I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences dealing with AMEs, but we are not all like that.

Good to hear! I wish more AMEs share your attitude.

Unfortunately, my experience (for the most part) is most AMEs that work on GA aircraft in Canada fall into your description..

"I wish more ames would take time out of their day to teach me stuff for free"

[aviatrix444]

I run a photography business on the side (to support my flying habit) and I don't care to mention all the ways people have tried to haggle me down, or skimp on the invoice. "Well my cousin just bought a REALLY expensive camera from best buy, and he'll be taking pictures too, so you won't be working as hard, so we'll pay half your hourly rate" No joke. I've chosen my pricing based upon my experience, my equipment investment, and the market I'm working in. I'm guessing AME's are the same.

For time building I recently bought myself a PA28-140 that had sat for quite some time, so in the interest of piece of mind I had it almost entirely taken apart so I knew exactly what kind of shape it was in, and fixed whatever wasn't A-1. Being a recent flight college grad, money was a bit of an issue, so I found a mechanic who was willing to let me help take panels off, clean stuff up, basic time-saving labour. I also learned more about engines than I did in ground school, actually having the parts in my hands, which in my mind is invaluable.

It's not that I wasn't willing to pay for his time, I happily settled up on the day I got my logbook back.

However, if I could do it all again, I'm not sure I would. The AME missed quite a few things on the annual / reassembly. Likely because he had an overly eager young pilot asking him a million and 1 questions while he worked. Lessons learned.

Even though the budget is limited, I do but aside a contingency for every hour I fly, so if (when) something breaks, I have the funds to pay an AME properly... and without me hovering while he works

But yes, please pay your AME, photographer, gardener, etc what they ask if you want their services.