What actually happens in an overhaul.

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Strega
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What actually happens in an overhaul.

#1 Post by Strega » Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:01 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo42bgf97Ok

FYI the same thing is done today..... good deal for $25k...
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#2 Post by tipsails » Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:58 am

That's aviation for you. I can build a 500whp turbo car in my garage, beat on it, track it and have it not blow up but I need to drop $25k on a specialized engine overhaul for a carb'd, point'd and push rod'd engine. Makes sense.
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#3 Post by 5x5 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 5:14 pm

I don't think it makes sense for a boat to pull the kids around the lake wakeboarding should cost $100,000 either. So guess what - I choose not to buy one. Most prices are determined by the costs that go into the product and then by what the market will bear and are determined by what people will pay. If you don't like the price, contribute to the market forces and don't pay it. Eventually the sellers will lower the prices or they will go out of business, but the market determines it.

Ranting on a forum has no impact whatsoever.
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#4 Post by PT6_Nation » Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:54 pm

An automotive engine rebuild is worth $5 -10K easy, if not more, you know what a car doesn't do?

Fly, and endanger not only the people in it, but also the people below it, and the people that repaired it, and the people that built it, your paying for the certification of that engine; that it will not have a catastrophic failure at take off killing you, your poor buddy, and the family in the minivan on the highway at the end of airport. Your wife is in shambles; calls the lawyer; the lawyer sues the AME, who ends up in jail for 6 months for neglect, loses his license and his lively hood, as well as the engine shop gets fined $1,250,000 in damages, forcing it to shut down, and laying off 30 employees.

Car engine fails; you pull over, call the shop that screwed you, freak out on them, everyone goes home to a glass of whiskey and a Jerry Springer re-run.

Aviation is expensive; don't like it? Don't do it.
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#5 Post by Pat Richard » Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:53 am

/l\ This.
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#6 Post by Strega » Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:28 pm

AME, who ends up in jail for 6 months for neglect
Can you provide an example of such?


Again I say,, just because something is more expensive, doesnt make it better.
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#7 Post by Taiser » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:52 pm

Gotta agree with the rip-off prices, not in the AME salary (expertise is something you want when rebuilding an engine) that builds it but the parts!!! I've rebuilt a lot of engines, airplanes included and NO bloody way should anything based on 60 year old tech have any reason to be this damn expensive, certified or not! Sure the market is small, but not that small!!!

I compare this to a Harley, no way should they be that expensive either, not when I can get a Hayabusa engine that puts out 4x the HP and lasts 10 times longer with minimal maintenance...

Lycoming and Continental have us by the short hairs and they know it. Even Rotax! They have a certified engine and a non-cert one, at least they use to, anyways the non-cert one is only a few thousand less! WTF? If the certification cost is what you are paying for then we're getting hosed!!! :?
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#8 Post by TeePeeCreeper » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:12 pm

Taiser wrote: Even Rotax! They have a certified engine and a non-cert one, at least they use to, anyways the non-cert one is only a few thousand less! WTF? If the certification cost is what you are paying for then we're getting hosed!!! :?
I've been to the Rotax factory. There is absolutely no difference between the certified engines and non certified. It's all about paperwork and assumption of liability.

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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#9 Post by PilotDAR » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:28 pm

There is absolutely no difference between the certified engines and non certified. It's all about paperwork
Paperwork - that's the difference! Certification was requested, costs incurred, and upon demonstration, certification issued.

Like it or not, if you want to put an engine in a certified aircraft, the engine must be certified - it's in the design requirements. If you want the engine certified, it must be designed to comply, and then subjected to witnessed testing. Qualified people have to do the paperwork to provide the certification. Without the certified engine the certified plane will not fly.

Happily, in Canada, we have several alternatives to "certified" for aircraft. Feel free to follow them, you can have every bit the same quality......
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#10 Post by TeePeeCreeper » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:26 pm

PilotDAR wrote:
There is absolutely no difference between the certified engines and non certified. It's all about paperwork
Paperwork - that's the difference! Certification was requested, costs incurred, and upon demonstration, certification issued.

Like it or not, if you want to put an engine in a certified aircraft, the engine must be certified - it's in the design requirements. If you want the engine certified, it must be designed to comply, and then subjected to witnessed testing. Qualified people have to do the paperwork to provide the certification. Without the certified engine the certified plane will not fly.

Happily, in Canada, we have several alternatives to "certified" for aircraft. Feel free to follow them, you can have every bit the same quality......
We are both saying the same thing. Except in most cases when coming from the manufacture (Rotax in my illustrated example) the uncertified final product is the same of the certified one!

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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#11 Post by PilotDAR » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:46 pm

the uncertified final product is the same of the certified one!
Well, except for not being certified, which can be a vital difference if your application requires a certified engine. It's kinda like maintenance, lots of people could turn a wrench on a plane, but many fewer can certify their work. Do you need the certification....? When I buy some materials, they are identical, off the same bulk roll - certified or not. If I want certification, I pay a fee just for that, zero change to what i bought, other than I can use it in a certified application.
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#12 Post by photofly » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:38 pm

You know, the more you try to describe the benefits of certification, the more it sounds like nothing more than a make-$$$ scheme for people like yourself who make a living in the certification business :-)
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#13 Post by PilotDAR » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:17 am

the more it sounds like nothing more than a make-$$$ scheme for people like yourself who make a living in the certification business
Yeah, probably similar to a flying school being a money making scheme for people who want to train pilots.... You have your good months, and your not so good months!

Except wait!... People can choose to fly legitimate, non certified aircraft if they like, and avoid all those certification costs entirely! Often I help people find that way.

Hmmm, legitimate, non licensed pilots.... I wonder....
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#14 Post by photofly » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:29 am

PilotDAR wrote:Yeah, probably similar to a flying school being a money making scheme for people who want to train pilots.... You have your good months, and your not so good months!
I can promise you that the people who do the training are not the ones making the money. The fuel vendor and the AMEs involved: guaranteed. The owner? Possibly. The people doing the training? Nuh-uh.
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#15 Post by DonutHole » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:52 pm

photofly wrote:
PilotDAR wrote:Yeah, probably similar to a flying school being a money making scheme for people who want to train pilots.... You have your good months, and your not so good months!
I can promise you that the people who do the training are not the ones making the money. The fuel vendor and the AMEs involved: guaranteed. The owner? Possibly. The people doing the training? Nuh-uh.
Yeah the ames involved fixing training aircraft are on the path to early retirement.

Rolls eyes.

The median income for an m1 licensed a me working on training aircraft barely breaks 30 dollars an hour. Most m1 guys I know working on that small shit land in the mid high twenties.

Yup. Making money hand over fist.
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#16 Post by GyvAir » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:04 pm

DonutHole wrote:The median income for an m1 licensed a me working on training aircraft barely breaks 30 dollars an hour.
Is it that high? Would surprise me if it was. Where does one find such stats?
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#17 Post by DonutHole » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:03 pm

GyvAir wrote:
DonutHole wrote:The median income for an m1 licensed a me working on training aircraft barely breaks 30 dollars an hour.
Is it that high? Would surprise me if it was. Where does one find such stats?
I pulled it out of my ass. It happens to be the bracket I'm in so I'm observationally curious and ask around. My group of peers is about 100 people and the guy who is really pulling it in is making 35 an hour. Everybody else I talk to is in around the 22/27 an hour range... incidentally this is about the going rate for an acad m2 fw guy. That being said. I took into account that most flight schools have 1 Dom an engineer and maybe an apprentice. In that situation the Dom wage brings up the average.

There's only on group making big money in ame land. Medium/heavy helicopter guys can (and do) make 100k a year but they pay for it in lifestyle. .. and they have to deal with helicopters so I'm not sure if it's even worth it.
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#18 Post by photofly » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:06 pm

DonutHole wrote:[
Yup. Making money hand over fist.
As little as it is, it's still a lot more than most instructors.
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#19 Post by DonutHole » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:14 pm

photofly wrote:
DonutHole wrote:[
Yup. Making money hand over fist.
As little as it is, it's still a lot more than most instructors.
That's bullshit. Ive worked at a few ftus. Per hour they make from 18 to 40 an hour depending on class. But most I knew were making about the same as I was, per hour flown.

The difference is, an ame can fix a toilet so you can pay him to stick around for 8 hours a day even if the planes are all serviceable.

Per hour we make about the same. If Ames had 8 hours of fixing a day and instructors had 8 hours of flying our t4s would pretty much be a wash.
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#20 Post by photofly » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:22 pm

DonutHole wrote: If Ames had 8 hours of fixing a day and instructors had 8 hours of flying our t4s would pretty much be a wash.
But instructors don't have 8 hours of flying per day. And you can still fix planes when the weather's bad.
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#21 Post by GyvAir » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:32 pm

I agree with photofly on this one. The instructor life is certainly not one of glamour or riches, even if they're not invited to fix the toilet.
And yeah.. 22-27 is where I would expect the median to land. Even the DOM probably doesn't pull up the mean by much. And in a three person shop, the DOM isn't going to have much effect on the median at all. ;)
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#22 Post by DonutHole » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:51 pm

Nobody in GA is living a glamorous life
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#23 Post by robertw » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:46 am

DonutHole wrote:Nobody in GA is living a glamorous life
We're all in aviation for the glory of it!... Right? :lol:
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#24 Post by Taiser » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:23 pm

DonutHole wrote:Nobody in GA is living a glamorous life

From what I saw 20 years ago this was, and I'm assuming, still is, true! Which is why I got out of GA. Still miss it, a lot some times but I don't regret the move, neither does my family.

I really don't miss it when I'm thinking about the times I was at some outfitters camp up north, dodging pterodactyl size mosquitoes or working in the pissing rain, trying to change a blown jug on Knobby's Otter! :wink:

Fun to think back upon now, not something I would want to do at my age anymore though! :rolleyes:
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Re: What actually happens in an ovherhaul.

#25 Post by DonutHole » Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:48 pm

photofly wrote:
DonutHole wrote: If Ames had 8 hours of fixing a day and instructors had 8 hours of flying our t4s would pretty much be a wash.
But instructors don't have 8 hours of flying per day. And you can still fix planes when the weather's bad.
In most ga operations if the planes aren't flying 8 hours a day there isn't 8 hours a day mtc work either. Realistically depending on how your mtc schedule is set up in the mcm, and the quality of your gear you might not see that aircraft for 100 hours (we hope) and if you're not putting heavy hours on the plane you're also not breaking stuff that often.

The planes have to fly to need the mechanics to maintain them.

4 airplanes at a busy ftu is what it takes to keep a guy on the floor full time. I've seen operations with 7 172s and a few twins and one engineer maintains them all with a hand from a floating apprentice when he needs lift capability.

If you have a couple king airs and a good contract you could probably afford two full time Ames.

The thing is... Ames don't work for free like pilots and you can't just fill an Ame position like an instructor position. A few companies I have worked for pay median wage and it's hard to find a guy to come and work, but they advertise an instructor position at a deplorable wage and they're beating people away with sticks.

Also, you tend to get better use value out of an Ame. Being multi faceted is an awesome value added asset.
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