Defueling aircraft in hanger

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bonusboy
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Defueling aircraft in hanger

#1 Post by bonusboy » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:51 am

We've all been told over and over you cannot defuel an aircraft in the hanger but can someone show me where it says this in the cars or anywheres?
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#2 Post by photofly » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:57 am

It doesn't say it in the CARs, and you can do it.
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DanWEC
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#3 Post by DanWEC » Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:18 pm

CARS, don't think so- but it could be present in your local Airport or Municipal regulations. I know you can find these examples in the States-

http://www.flydenver.com/sites/default/ ... ueling.pdf
http://www.qcode.us/codes/palmsprings/v ... -16_40_020
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#4 Post by robertw » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:50 pm

As Photofly said, it's definitely not in the CAR's and you can do it (make sure everything's good and grounded!). That being said, it may be your companies policy not to do this for safety reasons or some of your customers may require this as part of a maintenance contract with your company. As far as local "regulations" go, it's unlikely that any municipal authority has a bylaw on where you can re-fuel aircraft and even if the airport you're located at does, it's probably not enforceable.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#5 Post by helicopterray » Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:39 pm

It's in our company policy manual to defuel outside.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#6 Post by single_swine_herder » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:50 pm

Its our policy to not fuel or defuel in the hangar ....... ask your local fueller if he would run the hose inside your building and pump in a few hundred gallons into your airplane, and accept the liability.

When we asked him that, he thought we were stupid to even speak to him .... then we said we were developing policy for the manual to ensure we were employing best practises, and he then was far easier to talk to.

One of my operations had a hangar fire, and I'll never forget that vision of black smoke a thousand feet high billowing out the main doors as I drove around the curve leading to the airport. Have that experience, and you err on the side of caution from that point forward.

After all, is it really such a huge handicap to pull the machine outside for that sort of operation considering what the potential ramifications are?

But hey .... its your place, and you likely haven't had your place of employment burn down before, so therefore it really isn't something that happens often enough to be a concern ..... so do whatever you think is best to save a bit of bother and inconvenience.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#7 Post by Heliian » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:31 am

What does your insurance company say?
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#8 Post by plhought » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:23 pm

Done it all the time - with pressure and normal refuel using a pneumatic pump/bowser. Hangar has grounding studs in the concrete. Only did it with Jet fuel though. I guess I'd be more leary with Avgas.
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neptune
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#9 Post by neptune » Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:28 pm

Most companies that I have worked with have not had a problem with defueling in hangar provided the common sense precautions are taken and all equipment and aircraft are electrically grounded. Then again you have to go by your company policies.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#10 Post by YYCAME » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:19 pm

We occasionally transfer fuel aircraft to aircraft in the hanger but we are using proper pressure refueling connections and not just sticking a hose in the overwing cap. I think there is room to do it safely but you need to have some sort of policy about constant monitoring and be able to open hanger doors immediately to ventilate in the event of a spill, not just turning on a boost pump and going to sit in the office for the next 20 minutes.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#11 Post by rubberboot » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:58 am

This is usually not a common practice. It also most likely invalidates any insurance policy. I think you will find it in the local airport directives that you are not allowed to park a fuel truck within 50ft of a hangar, so I can't see them authorizing you to defuel inside the hangar.

YYZ airport directives has this in it -

Do not park an aircraft fuel servicing vehicle within 15m of any buildings containing personnel or members of the public including:
- airport terminal buildings
- aircraft cargo buildings
- aircraft hangars
- any other airport structure designed to house the public that has windows or doors facing airside.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#12 Post by 747-875 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:57 pm

I can't recall seeing any regulation regarding fueling or de-fueling in the hangar here, but our company has a general purpose safety rule of if you're just using a bucket to get the last bits out of the drains that's fine but for a proper fuel or de-fuel job with the fuel truck and all take the airplane outside first.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#13 Post by 212wrench » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:40 am

Since when does common sense have to be in the CARs? It doesn't say to not lock your nuts in a vise in the CARs, but you probably shouldn't do it.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#14 Post by conehead » Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:56 pm

Eewwww.... That would hurt.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#15 Post by CID » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:28 am

Common sense? Common sense will tell you that its dumb to perform fuel/defuel operations in a hangar.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#16 Post by NeverBlue » Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:03 pm

Why?

If you can have fueled aircraft in a hangar why couldn't you de-fuel in a hangar.

Electrical safety code and WSIB ensures you take the necessary precautions if you are an AMO.
Why not?

Good idea? It's not a good idea to jump from a bridge but bungi jumping is pretty popular!

Do it right...no problem...
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#17 Post by rolly117 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:31 am

dont do what airspray did in 1999 it was a very ugly situation
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#18 Post by NeverBlue » Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:30 am

Unplugging a live extension cord on the ground around fueled aircraft in a hanger is a no-no let alone while defueling.

If any other maintenance at all is being done in the hangar it makes it very difficult to do it safely.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#19 Post by rubberboot » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:11 am

NeverBlue wrote:Why?

If you can have fueled aircraft in a hangar why couldn't you de-fuel in a hangar.

Electrical safety code and WSIB ensures you take the necessary precautions if you are an AMO.
Why not?

Good idea? It's not a good idea to jump from a bridge but bungi jumping is pretty popular!

Do it right...no problem...
it is a matter of what you (and your insurance company) consider acceptable risk...

Sure, it is a calculated risk to bungee jump from a bridge yet all bungee jump companies make you sign a waiver so you can't sue and your personal insurance company won't cover anything should the 1 in a million bungee snap happen. Your family gets to bear the cost of the shovel used to scrap your carcass off the ground.... same goes for any "extreme sport". Hell, I worked for a ground handling company which offered life insurance as part of the benefits, yet in the fine print said you were not covered if you worked at an airport or around aircraft... :shock:

Pilots have the same issue - if they get life insurance policies, they had better make sure it covers pilots and they will pay more accordingly

Same thing for fueling or defueling in a hangar. Your insurance company will say "sorry, but you took the risk and your not covered for the fire". Now tell that to all your customers who now have ashes for aircraft... and you are on the hook for everything. Defueling is probably "safer" than refueling in a hangar because fueling pushes the fumes/vapor out the vents yet I personally wouldn't do it.

Doing it right is irrelevant - all it takes is someone else unrelated to what you are doing to "do something wrong" and your in the burn ward at the hospital. Murphy's Law, Karma, Fate, Stars aligned, etc is what you are flirting with and she can be a real biatch...

To each their own though. Who am I to tell you that you can't. If you can live with the potential consequences, fill your boots.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#20 Post by NeverBlue » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:14 am

Who am I to tell you that you can't.
Uh...that's what my point was....and it's certainly not TCCA's place to say either.

Fueling or de-fueling is no different at all as far as fumes go. I don't know what you mean by that

And a 150 can be fueled or de-fueled safely in any hangar if the correct precautions are taken.


The general public handles gasoline everyday without any training or Insurance companies input.


Risk?
I think that's what insurance is for no?


Ok...did insurance cover AirSpray? :|
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#21 Post by photofly » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:38 am

rubberboot wrote: Sure, it is a calculated risk to bungee jump from a bridge yet all bungee jump companies make you sign a waiver so you can't sue and your personal insurance company won't cover anything should the 1 in a million bungee snap happen. Your family gets to bear the cost of the shovel used to scrap your carcass off the ground.... same goes for any "extreme sport". Hell, I worked for a ground handling company which offered life insurance as part of the benefits, yet in the fine print said you were not covered if you worked at an airport or around aircraft... :shock:
Just as a matter of interest, you can voluntarily waive your own rights, but you can't waive the rights of your dependants. If you die in a bungee accident, your family can always sue, regardless of what paperwork you signed. That's why most waivers aren't worth more than the paper they're printed on.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#22 Post by rubberboot » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:00 am

photofly wrote:
rubberboot wrote: Sure, it is a calculated risk to bungee jump from a bridge yet all bungee jump companies make you sign a waiver so you can't sue and your personal insurance company won't cover anything should the 1 in a million bungee snap happen. Your family gets to bear the cost of the shovel used to scrap your carcass off the ground.... same goes for any "extreme sport". Hell, I worked for a ground handling company which offered life insurance as part of the benefits, yet in the fine print said you were not covered if you worked at an airport or around aircraft... :shock:
Just as a matter of interest, you can voluntarily waive your own rights, but you can't waive the rights of your dependants. If you die in a bungee accident, your family can always sue, regardless of what paperwork you signed. That's why most waivers aren't worth more than the paper they're printed on.
Well, that's good to know, yet I was thinking more along the Insurance (life) policy. You get killed doing something that is not covered (ie high risk), they will not cover you.

Although it would have been your family that would need to sue for you anyway, because unless your Casper dead people can't sue.... :rolleyes:

Someone above mentioned common sense. I have been told that common sense never existed because there is no such thing as a common person - everyone is different. This is why my coffee cup says "HOT! Be careful". My screw driver says "not to be used as a prybar or chisel" although it is one of the best ones I've used... My snowblower has all sorts of warnings and semi-graphic pics on mangled or dismembered limbs. if there is a warning, it happened at least once and there was a huge $ payout....
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#23 Post by NeverBlue » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:51 am

it is a matter of what you (and your insurance company) consider acceptable risk...
Really? Does your Adjuster have an office in your shop? Are you supposed to call and ask anytime you might do something "risky"?

Did insurance cover AirSpray's losses?
This is why my coffee cup says "HOT! Be careful". 
No... $$$$$ is why it says that....nothing to do with safety or common sense at all...

...otherwise every cup in your cupboard would say it...every outlet in your house would be labeled "do not stick objects in outlet"...every stair in your house would have yellow paint on the leading edge.

All those labels are about money and nothing else.

Common sense is a term, has a meaning and has existed for ever.... :rolleyes:

And common sense should ensure that performing a potentially hazardous task requires control of the environment and those who enter it.


Seatbelts are about safety...
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#24 Post by rubberboot » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:29 am

NeverBlue wrote:
it is a matter of what you (and your insurance company) consider acceptable risk...
Really? Does your Adjuster have an office in your shop? Are you supposed to call and ask anytime you might do something "risky"?

Did insurance cover AirSpray's losses?
This is why my coffee cup says "HOT! Be careful". 
No... $$$$$ is why it says that....nothing to do with safety or common sense at all...

...otherwise every cup in your cupboard would say it...every outlet in your house would be labeled "do not stick objects in outlet"...every stair in your house would have yellow paint on the leading edge.

All those labels are about money and nothing else.

Common sense is a term, has a meaning and has existed for ever.... :rolleyes:

And common sense should ensure that performing a potentially hazardous task requires control of the environment and those who enter it.


Seatbelts are about safety...
I see why most people have issues with your statements... you tend to go on the attack when responding. I have no dog in this hunt, so save your battle for someone else. I am not here to pick fights with people. I am posting to offer an opinion - I have respected yours in the past, I expect you to offer the same.

I stand by what I wrote. Go tell an Occupational health and safety inspector about commonsense... we did and got spanked for it. Commonsense tells me that coffee is hot, I personally don't need a warning and neither did anyone else until someone sued and won millions against McDonalds. I don't need to be told not to reach into a snowblower.... all those warnings come from not wanting to be sued because of lapses in common sense. Yes it is $$$$ why commonsense cant be trusted.

you don't need an adjuster in your shop, it will be in the insurance policy on what is not covered. Accidents happen and that's what insurance is for, but again if your policy doesn't cover it then you need to deal with it. I don't know what happened to Airspray, nor do I care. I do know it is against our company policy to refuel/defuel in the hangar. It is not considered an acceptable risk. Period.

defueling sucks fresh air into the tanks to displace the fuel coming out. fuelling pushes the fumes out the vents when fuelling. Or at least it will on Large aircraft when using a fuel truck to defuel. I don't work on small aircraft, but know that it is usually a manual method (ie bucket or hose into a barrel) for draining them. Can't ground plastic so static can be an issue, unless you use a metal pail (I worked for 1 company that only used white plastic pails...). You can be the safest person in the world and prepped everything perfect, then someone else walks in and with a fleece pullover and arcs himself to the airplane. odds of it happening are slim, but it is a risk that you can't prepare for.

Again, its your call. Our company won't be defueling or fueling in the hangar.
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Re: Defueling aircraft in hanger

#25 Post by NeverBlue » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:19 pm

What r u talking about...I see what they mean?
Doing it right is irrelevant
...that was your response to my post that you quoted...am I not allowed to respond if I disagree?
. Go tell an Occupational health and safety inspector about commonsense...
Now that would be just stupid...and THAT is common sense.


Did insurance cover AirSpray's losses?

Did insurance cover AirSpray's losses?

Did insurance cover AirSpray's losses?
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