AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

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Rakesh
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AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#1 Post by Rakesh » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:00 pm

Hello Everyone,

I have obtained my Canadian AME M1 License and i am interested in obtaining my AME M2. How long should i do my Apprenticeship to obtain my M2 and what percentage of tasks i needed to complete in my logbook for M2 tasks? Comments will be really appreciated.
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Meecka
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#2 Post by Meecka » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:43 am

You'll need to start a whole new log book for M2 tasks only, and it's the same as M1. You'll need 70% of each chapter (or at least that was the way the office I dealt with interpreted it). Your apprenticeship will be the length of time it takes for TC to approve your logbook.
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FrozenWrench
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#3 Post by FrozenWrench » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:39 am

My TC office interpreted it as 70% of logbook tasks that apply to the aircraft you work on, and as Meecka said, a whole new logbook for M2. As for time, 1 year seems to ring a bell but I could be wrong on that one.
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#4 Post by Wonderdog » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:19 pm

If you take an interest in any heavy aircraft type, find hands on work, under experienced folks, you should be good to go, within 6 months, on type.

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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#5 Post by the_swede » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:11 pm

I just went through this myself this year.

-Yes, you will need 70% of APPLICABLE tasks signed off. This is determined by a letter from your current PRM as to which aircraft types you are working on. So be careful as to which ATA blocks you start signing off into. It is better to have zero tasks signed in an ATA code that you are only going to get a possibility of 50%. This way it is more likely to not be taken into account. If you have one....you better ensure you have atleast the 70%.

-There is no actual apprenticeship time so to speak. You are a licensed M1 engineer. Apprenticeship over.

-Side note for some guys out there. If you are a M1 licensed rotor-wing engineer (my case), working on a "M2" catagory helicopter, and you have the type course. You will be able to sign your own logbook. This was the case in Calgary this summer. Sped the process up for me for sure. I argued that if I can sign the aircraft journey log, why was I unable to sign the maintenance task list?

Lastly figure out who your PMI is and ask him/her directly.

Cheers
Swede
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#6 Post by robertw » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:40 pm

the_swede wrote:Lastly figure out who your PMI is and ask him/her directly.
+1 to this. That should actually be the first thing you do.

What TCCA will require varies from region to region and even office to office, so ask questions directly to the person / office who will be reviewing your application. Advice here on Avcanada may send you on a wild goose chase. :smt117
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#7 Post by the_swede » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:54 pm

robertw wrote: +1 to this. That should actually be the first thing you do.

What TCCA will require varies from region to region and even office to office, so ask questions directly to the person / office who will be reviewing your application. Advice here on Avcanada may send you on a wild goose chase. :smt117
Incorrect Robert. ALWAYS ask the group of professionals on internet forums for legal and maintenance advice first. And if you cant get the answer here....go to Facebook. And if all else fails read the manuals or go to your local TCCA office.

Hopefully you got some guidance Rakesh

Cheers

Swede
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#8 Post by groncher » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:03 pm

Swede, a little confused by your statement that you were able to sign your own log book. If you were able to sign a maintenance release, why would you even be required to have a log book signed off?

According to CAR's M1 OR M2 license includes all turbine helicopters.

Can you clarify?

To the original poster, ask your PMI for God's sake! He/she is the one that will approve your log book, and you'll get as many opinions from TC as you will on here, might as well get it from the one that matters.

And you are no longer an apprentice with an M1 (never actually were an apprentice), you are simply qualifying for an additional rating.
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#9 Post by the_swede » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:12 pm

groncher wrote:Swede, a little confused by your statement that you were able to sign your own log book. If you were able to sign a maintenance release, why would you even be required to have a log book signed off?

According to CAR's M1 OR M2 license includes all turbine helicopters.
For sure. As a M1 engineer with the appropriate type course, I am able to work on M1 or M2 category helicopter. TCCA has left a huge grey area that nobody there seams to understand. I was a M1 engineer maintaining and signing off M2 category helicopters, fully legit. I wanted to get my M1/M2 rating for many reasons. In discussion with my PMI he agreed that I was able to sign my M2 task logbook in order to get my M2 license.
Transport is very confused when it comes to licensing and helicopters it seams. I hope this clarifies things a little.
Cheers
Swede
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#10 Post by plhought » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:42 pm

Well that's a but of a head-scratcher Swede...i'd keep that under wraps if I we're you...haha


I know the Prairie-Northern boys wouldn't let that slide. What region were ya in? There was some pretty explicit instructions that went out, mostly regarding guys signing off their own logbook working on the M1/M2 airplanes (commuter stuff).
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#11 Post by groncher » Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:49 am

A bit of a head scratcher indeed. Sounds like you may have gotten through a loop hole that shouldn't have been there.
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#12 Post by the_swede » Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:40 pm

I'm in Prairie Northern.
And this is where I think the grey area of the helicopter world comes into play. Absolutely with airplanes I can see how this wouldn't work, because you can not sign out a M2 category airplane with out a M2 license. However, with a M1 license I am able to sign off, what is still technically a M2 category helicopter.

566.03(4.i) Issuance and Endorsement of an AME Licence
"the applicants shall submit a personal log book or equivalent document signed by the persons responsible for the maintenance release of the work items recorded."

In my case, and a few of my co-workers, I was the person responsible for the maintenance release. This is how I was able to sign my logbook. God Bless unclear rules and mass confusion in Transport!
Swede
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#13 Post by robertw » Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:14 pm

the_swede wrote: Incorrect Robert. ALWAYS ask the group of professionals on internet forums for legal and maintenance advice first. And if you cant get the answer here....go to Facebook. And if all else fails read the manuals or go to your local TCCA office.
Ummm... Ok... ??? :?:
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#14 Post by InclinePlane » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:15 am

So if I get this right,
there are several aircraft that can be signed by an M1 or an M2 (https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca ... s/c004.doc). If I have an M1 working on one of these aircraft, I can sign my own tasks for an M2 rating.
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#15 Post by robertw » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:48 pm

InclinePlane wrote:So if I get this right,
there are several aircraft that can be signed by an M1 or an M2 (https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca ... s/c004.doc). If I have an M1 working on one of these aircraft, I can sign my own tasks for an M2 rating.
Yes, you are correct on the M1 / M2 sign off issue.

I would get your local TCCA office to validate signing off your own logbook prior to doing it. I find it highly doubtful that the intent of the standard was to include persons to sign off tasks in their own log books. TCCA specifies that no one can audit areas that they are responsible for, nor can an AME sign an ICC for work that they have signed the maintenance release for, so you may have trouble getting an inspector to allow this. There's just no objectivity there!
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Re: AME M1 License holder Apprenticeship time to obtain AME M2

#16 Post by the_swede » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:22 pm

robertw wrote:
the_swede wrote: Incorrect Robert. ALWAYS ask the group of professionals on internet forums for legal and maintenance advice first. And if you cant get the answer here....go to Facebook. And if all else fails read the manuals or go to your local TCCA office.
Ummm... Ok... ??? :?:
Sorry for my sarcastic sense humor. And as far as signing your own logbook, correct verify with your local inspector. I followed the word of the air regs, as I and my inspector interpreted it, and was able to sign my logbook. Thats how the regs read...I followed the rules.

And as far as objectivity goes, an engineer is only as good as his integrity and honesty. This works for tasks signed by supervisors for an apprentice, engineers signing for maintenance carried out on an aircraft, and a task logbook signed by myself.
cheers
Swede
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