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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:10 pm 
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Hi,

tl;dr at the end

A quick explanation of my situation before I start asking questions. I co-own a 1/10th share (yes, only 1/10th...) of a Cessna 150L based out of CYBW Springbank. Since I bought in about a year ago, we've had some expensive repairs as it has been in the air a lot more than previously. ie. I've put more than 100 hours on it myself, whereas before I purchased my share, they had a total of 45 hours between 10 people in the previous year. So, it gets flown a lot, and we've had to replace the Artificial Horizon, the Turn and Slip Indicator (with a Turn Coordinator), the Transponder, and most recently the Alternator. Now, of course, our VOR has been showing signs of...well, it just barely works anymore and definitely can't be used for navigation. I'd like to have it replaced as it is very nice to use for longer flights, but it's about $3,000 installed for a new one, and now I'm looking for alternatives.

I stumbled across this article yesterday:

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... -airplanes

And it got me wondering...has TC implemented any legislation similar to what it looks like the FAA is doing down in the States? I've been looking at some EFIS's like the Dynon EFIS-D10A as a replacement for some of our instruments...is this possible, plausible, cost-effective, and legal in Canada? The aircraft is Registered in Canada. I'm new to the whole "replacing avionics" thing so please bear with me. I just received my PPL last November so I'm still learning things like this.

tl;dr: Am I able to put a non-TSO'd EFIS in my Canadian-Registered 1973 Cessna 150L as a replacement for my primary instruments, such as my Artificial Horizon, ASI, Altimeter, Heading Indicator, etc.?

Thanks!

Alex Penner



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:50 pm 
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Simple answer is no, you can not put that non-TSOd EFIS as a replacement for your primary instruments.

Do you guys actually use the VOR? Honestly, if you guys are just bombing around VFR with a handheld to suction mount gps...I wouldn't worry too much about it. It may be a simple antenna connector? Have ya had a mechanic look at it or just assuming the unit's pooched?

EDIT: Corrected below :oops:



Last edited by plhought on Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:02 pm 
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plhought wrote:
Simple answer is no, you can not put that non-TSOd EFIS as a replacement for your primary instruments.

Do you guys actually use the VOR? Honestly, if you guys are just bombing around VFR with a handheld to suction mount gps...I wouldn't worry too much about it. It may be a simple antenna connector? Have ya had a mechanic look at it or just assuming the unit's pooched?


We do have a Garmin Aera 500, but as a CPL student, yes, I'd like to be able to use the VOR. I believe we had it looked at by our Avionics guy, but I honestly don't remember what he said as it was awhile ago. We haven't looked at the antenna connector, I guess maybe that's the next step. The problems seem intermittent. When it doesn't work, I get a lot of static on the NavCom when I'm identifying the station, the CDI needle seems to usually deflect to the left regardless of the OBS setting, and there always seems to be either a FROM or OFF flag.

Alex Penner



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:35 pm 
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A FAA STC on a Cessna 150 is totally valid in Canada. Cessna's are built under a FAA Type Certificate, therefore a FAA issued STC is valid.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:55 pm 
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An STC and a TSO are distinctly different. TSO does not confer installation eligibility on a type, but rather demonstrates it meets an independent design standard. The most easy to understand example is that both a 4 ply and a 6 ply 6.00 -6 tire are TSO'd, but each may not necessarily be installed in place of the other, the proper tire must be approved on that aircraft type.

FAA STC's are generally accepted on US state of design aircraft in Canada, though there have been exceptions - don't assume!

The new mini EFIS instruments are very attractive, but for now, their installation in a certified plane would require an STC, which would be a considerable task. There's more to it than just the indicator itself. "Function and Reliability" are design requirements, and are very challenging to demonstrate. If you want a glimpse, search "DO-160", which is a standard for electronic systems. That seems to be a common go to for certification. I have never used it, it was just too burdensome for GA installations. Instrument power source requirements are another which would limit EFIS in older aircraft, though new glass cockpit GA are getting round it - but probably with a lot of inertia from the big manufacturers.

"Radio" type avionics generally are accompanied with FAA documents which permit installation (whether TSO'd or not). That is because their manufacturer has done the approval work, and has the data, and generally, they do not represent a design change, but are more like a PMA part.

You're stuck with "old" instruments for now....



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:48 pm 
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culver10 wrote:
A FAA STC on a Cessna 150 is totally valid in Canada. Cessna's are built under a FAA Type Certificate, therefore a FAA issued STC is valid.


PilotDAR wrote:
An STC and a TSO are distinctly different. TSO does not confer installation eligibility on a type, but rather demonstrates it meets an independent design standard. The most easy to understand example is that both a 4 ply and a 6 ply 6.00 -6 tire are TSO'd, but each may not necessarily be installed in place of the other, the proper tire must be approved on that aircraft type.

FAA STC's are generally accepted on US state of design aircraft in Canada, though there have been exceptions - don't assume!

The new mini EFIS instruments are very attractive, but for now, their installation in a certified plane would require an STC, which would be a considerable task. There's more to it than just the indicator itself. "Function and Reliability" are design requirements, and are very challenging to demonstrate. If you want a glimpse, search "DO-160", which is a standard for electronic systems. That seems to be a common go to for certification. I have never used it, it was just too burdensome for GA installations. Instrument power source requirements are another which would limit EFIS in older aircraft, though new glass cockpit GA are getting round it - but probably with a lot of inertia from the big manufacturers.

"Radio" type avionics generally are accompanied with FAA documents which permit installation (whether TSO'd or not). That is because their manufacturer has done the approval work, and has the data, and generally, they do not represent a design change, but are more like a PMA part.

You're stuck with "old" instruments for now....


Thank you both for your responses, this helps!

Alex Penner



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:44 am 
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Another option: If the ownership mix and planned usage for the aircraft would be compatible with putting the plane into the Owner Maintenance category, you could do whatever you like to the panel...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:12 am 
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For the VOR, take it to an avionics shop and have them find the problem first, then fix it.

For the gyros, join EAA, pay them $100 for the Dynon STC, rip out all the old junk and install a D10. The C150L is on the STC list.

http://www.dynonavionics.com/retrofit/



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:21 pm 
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I totally agree with the above comment from ahramin. Another approved option is now available from Garmin https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-the-air/experimental/flight-displays/g5-electronic-flight-instrument-for-certificated-aircraft/prod570665.html


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:45 am 
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D'oh! Reading topic from ruddy cellphone. If I had bothered to actually follow through with the original poster's link I would have seen it's an STC.


I'm leaning towards the "you have an FAA STC so go nuts" route. I think ya could do it.



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:21 am 
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Interesting question.

Just to muddy the waters some, this link discusses similar issues. http://edburkhead.com/ercoupe/radio_tso_requirement.htm & http://edburkhead.com/ercoupe/TSO_Instrument_Requirement.htm. I thought it was an interesting read. I have not looked into the Canadian regs, but it might be worth while to look into.

Since it is an FAA STC, go for it! I have touched base with TC about other STC's in the past, wondering if they wanted to formally review and accept it, and they wanted nothing more if it is accepted by the FAA. But this is pretty new, so you might want to double check.



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