Maintenance Engineers
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
Another thought...
In all the smaller shops I worked at, the pilots were only "passing through". They had no intention of staying and no will or incentive to do so. Yet many of them got better pay then AMEs. The maintenance staff were some of the most permanent staff at the companies. If pilots are passing through and AME more permanent, then why is that not reflected in their pay? Why not have some sort of pension plan or RRSP matching plan for the AMEs/ maintenance group?
The salary at Westjet, Air Canada, Bombardier and Transat is in the neighborhood of 90k-95k$/year if you include benefits and pension plan to normal salary. Since there is now a shortage, what you need to ask yourself Mr. WildernessAir, is what do you have to offer in order to get an AME? What would motivate an employee to leave his job and move to the Thunder Bay area to work for you? How competitive is your offer compared to what the local competitors in YQT are offering? How much does Bearskin pay? How much does Thunder Airlines Pay? What does Recon air Pay? and what does Hearst Air pay? What benefits are offered by these places? How do you compare?
In my experience, it is a waste of my time to contact an employer who doesn't disclose salary range. Most contracting outfits that call, are offering ridiculously low rates. Most small operators are offering the same and without benefits. They then wonder why they get no available candidates.
Lupin
In all the smaller shops I worked at, the pilots were only "passing through". They had no intention of staying and no will or incentive to do so. Yet many of them got better pay then AMEs. The maintenance staff were some of the most permanent staff at the companies. If pilots are passing through and AME more permanent, then why is that not reflected in their pay? Why not have some sort of pension plan or RRSP matching plan for the AMEs/ maintenance group?
The salary at Westjet, Air Canada, Bombardier and Transat is in the neighborhood of 90k-95k$/year if you include benefits and pension plan to normal salary. Since there is now a shortage, what you need to ask yourself Mr. WildernessAir, is what do you have to offer in order to get an AME? What would motivate an employee to leave his job and move to the Thunder Bay area to work for you? How competitive is your offer compared to what the local competitors in YQT are offering? How much does Bearskin pay? How much does Thunder Airlines Pay? What does Recon air Pay? and what does Hearst Air pay? What benefits are offered by these places? How do you compare?
In my experience, it is a waste of my time to contact an employer who doesn't disclose salary range. Most contracting outfits that call, are offering ridiculously low rates. Most small operators are offering the same and without benefits. They then wonder why they get no available candidates.
Lupin
Last edited by lupin on Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
I have no idea about Bombardier, Westjet or Air Transat.......
But I do know that Air Canada pays no more than around 35 per hour at the top of the scale.
But I do know that Air Canada pays no more than around 35 per hour at the top of the scale.
Re: Maintenance Engineers
When calculating total compensation, one must factor in pension plan, rrsp matching, health benefits. If you can be paid 35$/hr with a pension plan or 35$/hr without... how much is that worth to you?ourkid2000 wrote:I have no idea about Bombardier, Westjet or Air Transat.......
But I do know that Air Canada pays no more than around 35 per hour at the top of the scale.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
In my experience, it is a waste of my time to contact an employer who doesn't disclose salary range.
Contract rates have stayed the same forever, and and if you figure for inflation, etc, they are getting lower monthly.Most contracting outfits that call, are offering ridiculously low rates. Most small operators are offering the same and without benefits. They then wonder why they get no available candidates.
I really would like to know why more companies do not hire contractors directly. It just blows my mind how stubborn most are in this regard. They could secure good ame's by giving the rate they are paying to the agencies.
If any management type is reading this, please sound off.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
Great Thread !! Hitting all the points of WHY AME's are moving to other carrers at an even more allarming rate than before the resession . However in order to pay more you need to charge more and the root of the problem may lie in the fact that everyone wants to to fly for $49 and there are companies out there going to try and go with the volume ... some fail and fold and or others fail and fold because they are smaller . The Bigger fish theory in practise. Untill this madness stops I do not see a change in the direction in the extinction of the AME .
Big city / big Iron business is totally different than the Northern or small community hopper business. there are so many differences it is not fair to compare. But within each identity there are several glowing simularities
1) Comparison with other industries in financial rewards /vs. responsibilites and condidtions
2) Access to normal Quality family time for the Engineer
3) Lack of Respect for the Engineer
Now that TC has handed the keys to the henhouse to the Fox it can only get worse for the Engineer , the small operator and all the flying public .
Big city / big Iron business is totally different than the Northern or small community hopper business. there are so many differences it is not fair to compare. But within each identity there are several glowing simularities
1) Comparison with other industries in financial rewards /vs. responsibilites and condidtions
2) Access to normal Quality family time for the Engineer
3) Lack of Respect for the Engineer
Now that TC has handed the keys to the henhouse to the Fox it can only get worse for the Engineer , the small operator and all the flying public .
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
ps. besides our own AMO, we pay our contract maintenance guys $75 + an hour.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
This is probably the best thread I have ever read.
If there was ever something in writing to send to HR minions or post on the wall so your manager could read, this would be it.
I agree there is no end in sight to stop this industry decline, and there will never be an end to the arrogance of managers or university educated HR personnel who have no aviation experience.
What can we do?
Let the AME pool dry up?
Stop repairing aircraft and join the ranks of HR? (least someone in HR would know the worth of an AME!)
I'd like TC to grab hold of the reigns again and control the industry directly, like they used to.
But a series unnecessary accidents need to happen before TC wakes up.
By then most of us AME's will be long gone from aviation.
If there was ever something in writing to send to HR minions or post on the wall so your manager could read, this would be it.
I agree there is no end in sight to stop this industry decline, and there will never be an end to the arrogance of managers or university educated HR personnel who have no aviation experience.
What can we do?
Let the AME pool dry up?
Stop repairing aircraft and join the ranks of HR? (least someone in HR would know the worth of an AME!)
I'd like TC to grab hold of the reigns again and control the industry directly, like they used to.
But a series unnecessary accidents need to happen before TC wakes up.
By then most of us AME's will be long gone from aviation.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
wildernessnorthair
your comment: "ps. besides our own AMO, we pay our contract maintenance guys $75 + an hour."
Thankyou for posting yet another example of what AME's have to put up with.
Your AMO is prepared to pay $75+ to an agency to get a contractor who is being paid $35/hr. Yet your AMO is only prepared to pay $20-30/hr for a full time AME.
Thank you again for your contribution!
your comment: "ps. besides our own AMO, we pay our contract maintenance guys $75 + an hour."
Thankyou for posting yet another example of what AME's have to put up with.
Your AMO is prepared to pay $75+ to an agency to get a contractor who is being paid $35/hr. Yet your AMO is only prepared to pay $20-30/hr for a full time AME.
Thank you again for your contribution!
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
great subject,great posts
someone asked"if management is watching.....maybe they can reply",my answer to that is yes,yes they are, and they are shitting their phuckin ivory tower slacks. will they chime in?...
nooooooooo. you see,it's the management attitude that they posses. there isn't a company
out there that has admitted publicly an AME shortage,therefore wages will stay low.
o.k. mr. wildernessair, here's my deal.....145,000.oo per year,a signed contract stating i will receive two years wages if you layoff,or termination in anyway shape or form takes place
within the one year contract.
housing{my OWN PLACE TO LIVE which includes all amenities}provided ,transportation provided,perdiem of 100.oo per day extra,all based on a forty hour week{o.t. is at time and a
half} funds are to be deposited every friday directly to my account.
interested?.............i didn't think so.
now you know why AME'S are leaving this "industry in severe decline" THE PAY IS SHIT!!!!
BRV
someone asked"if management is watching.....maybe they can reply",my answer to that is yes,yes they are, and they are shitting their phuckin ivory tower slacks. will they chime in?...
nooooooooo. you see,it's the management attitude that they posses. there isn't a company
out there that has admitted publicly an AME shortage,therefore wages will stay low.
o.k. mr. wildernessair, here's my deal.....145,000.oo per year,a signed contract stating i will receive two years wages if you layoff,or termination in anyway shape or form takes place
within the one year contract.
housing{my OWN PLACE TO LIVE which includes all amenities}provided ,transportation provided,perdiem of 100.oo per day extra,all based on a forty hour week{o.t. is at time and a
half} funds are to be deposited every friday directly to my account.
interested?.............i didn't think so.
now you know why AME'S are leaving this "industry in severe decline" THE PAY IS SHIT!!!!
BRV
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
ourkid2000 wrote:I have no idea about Bombardier, Westjet or Air Transat.......
But I do know that Air Canada pays no more than around 35 per hour at the top of the scale.
At Bombardier, as per the last collective agreement( Nov 29, 2008), it's roughly 38$ + 6% if you're leadhand, add to that a bonus of aprox 1.5$ for each hour worked, overtime included. Overtime is 1.5 until you hit the 12 hours mark in a given day, then it becomes 2.0 (twice). Saturday is 1.5 your rate for 8 hours, then its 2.0 your rate. Sunday, on church's day, it's 2.0 your rate all day and that is to compensate you for skipping church.
I almost forgot to say this, you can get the above wages within your first 2 years or 3 years with the company.........so, you don't need 20 years seniority for that.
Re: Maintenance Engineers
My hat is off to everybody in this thread, as you are all hitting the nail on the head. I remember when I was a kid watching planes and helicopters fly overhead, if I heard one coming I would go running to watch. Always wanting to be in Aviation. The more I read here and the more I work in this industry, the more I realize I should have let the friggin thing fly away.
All the comments here about the employers are so true, but in my opinion maintenance has one thing not going for them. It doesnt matter where you work, where you go. Maintenance will never stick together, and that , is just as big a problem as employers paying us shit, cause they know someone will.
All the comments here about the employers are so true, but in my opinion maintenance has one thing not going for them. It doesnt matter where you work, where you go. Maintenance will never stick together, and that , is just as big a problem as employers paying us shit, cause they know someone will.
Last edited by itismedd on Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Maintenance Engineers
Pat: Here at Canadian North we prefer to hire Contractors direct.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
motox415 wrote:Pat: Here at Canadian North we prefer to hire Contractors direct.
Thank you for the heads up, and a little suggestion to companies out there for a New Year's Resolution.
How about posting contractor positions in "jobs" section instead of rolling the dice, reaching for the phone, and calling an agency?
If that's not possible, post reasons as to why it isn't, on this forum.
I'm confident an immediate improvement could be made if a)The AME gets the full rate, b)the company get's the type of experience they need, for the same money being spent already for lower quality mechs(for $35 a/hr) that quite often are headaches/useless.
Companies, you are spending the money already, perhaps it's time to think about getting better value for it.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
This problem is not a Canadian one alone, I am licensed in 4 countries including Canada and have seen on a global scale qualified LAMEs who either quit the industry of fail to go through the hassle of licensing at a staggering rate.
With a natural attrition rate raising there are just not the young guys coming through prepared to put up with the 24/7 nature of many of the operators including the lower pay issues but also the cost and crippling bureaucratic web when it comes to dealing with the licensing divisions of many of the civil aviation authorities globally.
It seems those with the tenacity to stick with it are able to pick and choose their work, pay and global locations with more and more ease and it is an issue that seems not to be going away but only getting worse.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth...
With a natural attrition rate raising there are just not the young guys coming through prepared to put up with the 24/7 nature of many of the operators including the lower pay issues but also the cost and crippling bureaucratic web when it comes to dealing with the licensing divisions of many of the civil aviation authorities globally.
It seems those with the tenacity to stick with it are able to pick and choose their work, pay and global locations with more and more ease and it is an issue that seems not to be going away but only getting worse.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth...
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.
- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)
- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.
- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.
- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !
- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.
AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.
- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)
- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.
- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.
- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !
- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.
AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.
Re: Maintenance Engineers
Great post. I agree 100%.crazy_aviator wrote:Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.
- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)
- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.
- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.
- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !
- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.
AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
Planefixer and Pat Richard going direct is an Idea but thats where it ends. here's just a few reason's why :
1) The corporations looking for the engineers have HR departments that basically don't know one engineer from the other. The "agencies" through years of industry knowledge of both matching an engineer with a product and task has a better chance of being succesful in getting the right person .
2) Using an agency keeps the contractors at an arms length from the DOM ,PRM so as to not promote favoritism and hassles of phone calls , anger and resentment .
3) Using another corporation ensures : That their premises are insured , their WCB is not compormised by a disguntled contractor and is provided .
4) One contract one rate no hassles , flights , accomodations all arranged
5) When or if the hirer has issues with a contracter its the agency that has to pay that person , and to pay to get them out of town and that agency then has to put someone else in at no cost to the Hirer .
6) Hirer coensn't have to deal with contractors wanting advances, invoices and time cards not matching etc... and they can pay the agencies in 90 days and in most circumstances do .Wouldn' I like a free 90 day loan !!
7) When the AMO or Airline goes tits up and files for bankruptcy is is less personal to shaft an agency which also happens. Over seas companies sometimes don't pay no matter what and the contractor is still paid through the agency.
The agency provides a legal buffer from the CCRA in that the engineer is a contractor not a temporary employee which is huge $$
9) When the Agencies engineer has a heart Attack the agency pays for the Medivac ...
......and on and on it goes .
Add to that the current back stabbing within the industry of engineers underbidding each other to get work and you can see this will not work. Some Companies are trying this and rubbing their hands together in glee taking advantage of the engineers and using engineers that were provided to them before by the agency but when things pick back up this will turn sour.... Agencies and engineers , despite all the rederict , have great memories
1) The corporations looking for the engineers have HR departments that basically don't know one engineer from the other. The "agencies" through years of industry knowledge of both matching an engineer with a product and task has a better chance of being succesful in getting the right person .
2) Using an agency keeps the contractors at an arms length from the DOM ,PRM so as to not promote favoritism and hassles of phone calls , anger and resentment .
3) Using another corporation ensures : That their premises are insured , their WCB is not compormised by a disguntled contractor and is provided .
4) One contract one rate no hassles , flights , accomodations all arranged
5) When or if the hirer has issues with a contracter its the agency that has to pay that person , and to pay to get them out of town and that agency then has to put someone else in at no cost to the Hirer .
6) Hirer coensn't have to deal with contractors wanting advances, invoices and time cards not matching etc... and they can pay the agencies in 90 days and in most circumstances do .Wouldn' I like a free 90 day loan !!
7) When the AMO or Airline goes tits up and files for bankruptcy is is less personal to shaft an agency which also happens. Over seas companies sometimes don't pay no matter what and the contractor is still paid through the agency.
The agency provides a legal buffer from the CCRA in that the engineer is a contractor not a temporary employee which is huge $$
9) When the Agencies engineer has a heart Attack the agency pays for the Medivac ...
......and on and on it goes .
Add to that the current back stabbing within the industry of engineers underbidding each other to get work and you can see this will not work. Some Companies are trying this and rubbing their hands together in glee taking advantage of the engineers and using engineers that were provided to them before by the agency but when things pick back up this will turn sour.... Agencies and engineers , despite all the rederict , have great memories
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
So many things I could retort with but in order to retain the dignity that the OP thinks we AMEs should develop, I'll only touch on the highlighted one:crazy_aviator wrote:Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.
- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)
- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.
- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.
- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !
- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.
AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.
Please describe what the proper attire is for working on ancient piston engines. Just changing the oil on a radial Beaver leaves the AME dripping from head to toe through no fault of his/her own. It's the nature of the beast. Would we look better in your eyes if we were wearing a tuxedo drenched in filthy oil than the coveralls we generally all wear now? Give me a break. We're mechanics, what do you expect us to wear to do our jobs? What does the mechanic that works on your POS car wear that impresses you so much? We're all waiting with bated breath.
Will fix airplanes for food.
Re: Maintenance Engineers
I agree with HF on this. What exactly are we expected to wear and why should this heavily affect what we get paid? Is it not more about the service we provide and the risk we take? I can mention many other types of trades who are better off and dress even worse like say rig pigs.Human Factor wrote:So many things I could retort with but in order to retain the dignity that the OP thinks we AMEs should develop, I'll only touch on the highlighted one:crazy_aviator wrote:Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.
- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)
- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.
- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.
- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !
- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.
AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.
Please describe what the proper attire is for working on ancient piston engines. Just changing the oil on a radial Beaver leaves the AME dripping from head to toe through no fault of his/her own. It's the nature of the beast. Would we look better in your eyes if we were wearing a tuxedo drenched in filthy oil than the coveralls we generally all wear now? Give me a break. We're mechanics, what do you expect us to wear to do our jobs? What does the mechanic that works on your POS car wear that impresses you so much? We're all waiting with bated breath.
Lookng more professional is never a bad idea but but how do you achieve that when you have to wear coveralls? Rip the name tag off so management has to learn your name? As for foul mouthed and such, that really comes down to manners, and that is a lost cause in todays.
As much as i would love to show up to work lookng pretty in some kind of a costume like the pilots have i do not see this happening. More professionl and sticking to integrity for ssure but i think the idea is to be recognized for what we do, not impress the HR types with eye candy. But i think that is the problem.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers
Work attire can be a real pain in the ass. I admit, at times I dress like I should be living on skid row. But like it has been mentioned, Changing the bottom jug on a radial can drench you in oil regardless if you have coveralls on. Then there is sweltering heat and doing the same jug change and the last thing you want are coveralls. I just cut the sleeves off and shorten the legs ( kind of like that Angus Young get up he wore on stage...cmon..you know the one.) and put a pair of shorts on underneath. I recognise that the same attire in say a corporate setting would not nor should be tolerated. Every company is different and have different levels of filth the mechanic is exposed to. As well the company may have an image they want to maintain. We as engineers could at least recognise that and act accordingly. There really isnt a one hat fits all answer to this. Regardless we all need to act like professionals and the sooner that happens the sooner we can move on.
How can you tell which one is the pilot when you walk into a bar?....Don't worry he will come up and tell you.