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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:10 am 
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Another thought...

In all the smaller shops I worked at, the pilots were only "passing through". They had no intention of staying and no will or incentive to do so. Yet many of them got better pay then AMEs. The maintenance staff were some of the most permanent staff at the companies. If pilots are passing through and AME more permanent, then why is that not reflected in their pay? Why not have some sort of pension plan or RRSP matching plan for the AMEs/ maintenance group?

The salary at Westjet, Air Canada, Bombardier and Transat is in the neighborhood of 90k-95k$/year if you include benefits and pension plan to normal salary. Since there is now a shortage, what you need to ask yourself Mr. WildernessAir, is what do you have to offer in order to get an AME? What would motivate an employee to leave his job and move to the Thunder Bay area to work for you? How competitive is your offer compared to what the local competitors in YQT are offering? How much does Bearskin pay? How much does Thunder Airlines Pay? What does Recon air Pay? and what does Hearst Air pay? What benefits are offered by these places? How do you compare?

In my experience, it is a waste of my time to contact an employer who doesn't disclose salary range. Most contracting outfits that call, are offering ridiculously low rates. Most small operators are offering the same and without benefits. They then wonder why they get no available candidates.

Lupin



Last edited by lupin on Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:35 am 
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I have no idea about Bombardier, Westjet or Air Transat.......

But I do know that Air Canada pays no more than around 35 per hour at the top of the scale.



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:16 am 
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ourkid2000 wrote:
I have no idea about Bombardier, Westjet or Air Transat.......

But I do know that Air Canada pays no more than around 35 per hour at the top of the scale.


When calculating total compensation, one must factor in pension plan, rrsp matching, health benefits. If you can be paid 35$/hr with a pension plan or 35$/hr without... how much is that worth to you?



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:33 am 
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Quote:
In my experience, it is a waste of my time to contact an employer who doesn't disclose salary range.



Quote:
Most contracting outfits that call, are offering ridiculously low rates. Most small operators are offering the same and without benefits. They then wonder why they get no available candidates.


Contract rates have stayed the same forever, and and if you figure for inflation, etc, they are getting lower monthly.

I really would like to know why more companies do not hire contractors directly. It just blows my mind how stubborn most are in this regard. They could secure good ame's by giving the rate they are paying to the agencies.
If any management type is reading this, please sound off.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:09 pm 
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Great Thread !! :prayer: :prayer: Hitting all the points of WHY AME's are moving to other carrers at an even more allarming rate than before the resession . However in order to pay more you need to charge more and the root of the problem may lie in the fact that everyone wants to to fly for $49 and there are companies out there going to try and go with the volume ... some fail and fold and or others fail and fold because they are smaller . The Bigger fish theory in practise. Untill this madness stops I do not see a change in the direction in the extinction of the AME .

Big city / big Iron business is totally different than the Northern or small community hopper business. there are so many differences it is not fair to compare. But within each identity there are several glowing simularities

1) Comparison with other industries in financial rewards /vs. responsibilites and condidtions
2) Access to normal Quality family time for the Engineer
3) Lack of Respect for the Engineer

Now that TC has handed the keys to the henhouse to the Fox it can only get worse for the Engineer , the small operator and all the flying public .



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:52 pm 
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ps. besides our own AMO, we pay our contract maintenance guys $75 + an hour.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:53 pm 
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This is probably the best thread I have ever read.

If there was ever something in writing to send to HR minions or post on the wall so your manager could read, this would be it.

I agree there is no end in sight to stop this industry decline, and there will never be an end to the arrogance of managers or university educated HR personnel who have no aviation experience.
What can we do?
Let the AME pool dry up?
Stop repairing aircraft and join the ranks of HR? (least someone in HR would know the worth of an AME!)

I'd like TC to grab hold of the reigns again and control the industry directly, like they used to.
But a series unnecessary accidents need to happen before TC wakes up.
By then most of us AME's will be long gone from aviation.



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:05 pm 
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wildernessnorthair

your comment: "ps. besides our own AMO, we pay our contract maintenance guys $75 + an hour."

Thankyou for posting yet another example of what AME's have to put up with.

Your AMO is prepared to pay $75+ to an agency to get a contractor who is being paid $35/hr. Yet your AMO is only prepared to pay $20-30/hr for a full time AME.

Thank you again for your contribution!



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:40 pm 
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great subject,great posts
someone asked"if management is watching.....maybe they can reply",my answer to that is yes,yes they are, and they are shitting their phuckin ivory tower slacks. will they chime in?...
nooooooooo. you see,it's the management attitude that they posses. there isn't a company
out there that has admitted publicly an AME shortage,therefore wages will stay low.

o.k. mr. wildernessair, here's my deal.....145,000.oo per year,a signed contract stating i will receive two years wages if you layoff,or termination in anyway shape or form takes place
within the one year contract.
housing{my OWN PLACE TO LIVE which includes all amenities}provided ,transportation provided,perdiem of 100.oo per day extra,all based on a forty hour week{o.t. is at time and a
half} funds are to be deposited every friday directly to my account.

interested?.............i didn't think so.
now you know why AME'S are leaving this "industry in severe decline" THE PAY IS SHIT!!!!

BRV



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:54 pm 
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ourkid2000 wrote:
I have no idea about Bombardier, Westjet or Air Transat.......

But I do know that Air Canada pays no more than around 35 per hour at the top of the scale.


At Bombardier, as per the last collective agreement( Nov 29, 2008), it's roughly 38$ + 6% if you're leadhand, add to that a bonus of aprox 1.5$ for each hour worked, overtime included. Overtime is 1.5 until you hit the 12 hours mark in a given day, then it becomes 2.0 (twice). Saturday is 1.5 your rate for 8 hours, then its 2.0 your rate. Sunday, on church's day, it's 2.0 your rate all day and that is to compensate you for skipping church.

I almost forgot to say this, you can get the above wages within your first 2 years or 3 years with the company.........so, you don't need 20 years seniority for that.



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:15 pm 
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My hat is off to everybody in this thread, as you are all hitting the nail on the head. I remember when I was a kid watching planes and helicopters fly overhead, if I heard one coming I would go running to watch. Always wanting to be in Aviation. The more I read here and the more I work in this industry, the more I realize I should have let the friggin thing fly away.

All the comments here about the employers are so true, but in my opinion maintenance has one thing not going for them. It doesnt matter where you work, where you go. Maintenance will never stick together, and that , is just as big a problem as employers paying us shit, cause they know someone will.



Last edited by itismedd on Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:46 pm 
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Pat: Here at Canadian North we prefer to hire Contractors direct.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:46 pm 
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motox415 wrote:
Pat: Here at Canadian North we prefer to hire Contractors direct.



Thank you for the heads up, and a little suggestion to companies out there for a New Year's Resolution.

How about posting contractor positions in "jobs" section instead of rolling the dice, reaching for the phone, and calling an agency?

If that's not possible, post reasons as to why it isn't, on this forum.

I'm confident an immediate improvement could be made if a)The AME gets the full rate, b)the company get's the type of experience they need, for the same money being spent already for lower quality mechs(for $35 a/hr) that quite often are headaches/useless.


Companies, you are spending the money already, perhaps it's time to think about getting better value for it. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:28 pm 
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This problem is not a Canadian one alone, I am licensed in 4 countries including Canada and have seen on a global scale qualified LAMEs who either quit the industry of fail to go through the hassle of licensing at a staggering rate.

With a natural attrition rate raising there are just not the young guys coming through prepared to put up with the 24/7 nature of many of the operators including the lower pay issues but also the cost and crippling bureaucratic web when it comes to dealing with the licensing divisions of many of the civil aviation authorities globally.

It seems those with the tenacity to stick with it are able to pick and choose their work, pay and global locations with more and more ease and it is an issue that seems not to be going away but only getting worse.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth...



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:50 am 
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Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.

- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)

- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.

- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.

- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !

- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.

AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:01 am 
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crazy_aviator wrote:
Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.

- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)

- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.

- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.

- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !

- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.

AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.


Great post. I agree 100%.



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:48 am 
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Planefixer and Pat Richard going direct is an Idea but thats where it ends. here's just a few reason's why :

1) The corporations looking for the engineers have HR departments that basically don't know one engineer from the other. The "agencies" through years of industry knowledge of both matching an engineer with a product and task has a better chance of being succesful in getting the right person .
2) Using an agency keeps the contractors at an arms length from the DOM ,PRM so as to not promote favoritism and hassles of phone calls , anger and resentment .
3) Using another corporation ensures : That their premises are insured , their WCB is not compormised by a disguntled contractor and is provided .
4) One contract one rate no hassles , flights , accomodations all arranged
5) When or if the hirer has issues with a contracter its the agency that has to pay that person , and to pay to get them out of town and that agency then has to put someone else in at no cost to the Hirer .
6) Hirer coensn't have to deal with contractors wanting advances, invoices and time cards not matching etc... and they can pay the agencies in 90 days and in most circumstances do .Wouldn' I like a free 90 day loan !!
7) When the AMO or Airline goes tits up and files for bankruptcy is is less personal to shaft an agency which also happens. Over seas companies sometimes don't pay no matter what and the contractor is still paid through the agency.
8) The agency provides a legal buffer from the CCRA in that the engineer is a contractor not a temporary employee which is huge $$
9) When the Agencies engineer has a heart Attack the agency pays for the Medivac ...

......and on and on it goes .
Add to that the current back stabbing within the industry of engineers underbidding each other to get work and you can see this will not work. Some Companies :) are trying this and rubbing their hands together in glee taking advantage of the engineers and using engineers that were provided to them before by the agency but when things pick back up this will turn sour.... Agencies and engineers , despite all the rederict , have great memories



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:03 pm 
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crazy_aviator wrote:
Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.

- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)

- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.

- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.

- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !

- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.

AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.


So many things I could retort with but in order to retain the dignity that the OP thinks we AMEs should develop, I'll only touch on the highlighted one:

Please describe what the proper attire is for working on ancient piston engines. Just changing the oil on a radial Beaver leaves the AME dripping from head to toe through no fault of his/her own. It's the nature of the beast. Would we look better in your eyes if we were wearing a tuxedo drenched in filthy oil than the coveralls we generally all wear now? Give me a break. We're mechanics, what do you expect us to wear to do our jobs? What does the mechanic that works on your POS car wear that impresses you so much? We're all waiting with bated breath. :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:31 pm 
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Human Factor wrote:
crazy_aviator wrote:
Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.

- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)

- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.

- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.

- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !

- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.

AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.


So many things I could retort with but in order to retain the dignity that the OP thinks we AMEs should develop, I'll only touch on the highlighted one:

Please describe what the proper attire is for working on ancient piston engines. Just changing the oil on a radial Beaver leaves the AME dripping from head to toe through no fault of his/her own. It's the nature of the beast. Would we look better in your eyes if we were wearing a tuxedo drenched in filthy oil than the coveralls we generally all wear now? Give me a break. We're mechanics, what do you expect us to wear to do our jobs? What does the mechanic that works on your POS car wear that impresses you so much? We're all waiting with bated breath. :roll:


I agree with HF on this. What exactly are we expected to wear and why should this heavily affect what we get paid? Is it not more about the service we provide and the risk we take? I can mention many other types of trades who are better off and dress even worse like say rig pigs.
Lookng more professional is never a bad idea but but how do you achieve that when you have to wear coveralls? Rip the name tag off so management has to learn your name? As for foul mouthed and such, that really comes down to manners, and that is a lost cause in todays.
As much as i would love to show up to work lookng pretty in some kind of a costume like the pilots have i do not see this happening. More professionl and sticking to integrity for ssure but i think the idea is to be recognized for what we do, not impress the HR types with eye candy. But i think that is the problem.



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:42 pm 
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Work attire can be a real pain in the ass. I admit, at times I dress like I should be living on skid row. But like it has been mentioned, Changing the bottom jug on a radial can drench you in oil regardless if you have coveralls on. Then there is sweltering heat and doing the same jug change and the last thing you want are coveralls. I just cut the sleeves off and shorten the legs ( kind of like that Angus Young get up he wore on stage...cmon..you know the one.) and put a pair of shorts on underneath. I recognise that the same attire in say a corporate setting would not nor should be tolerated. Every company is different and have different levels of filth the mechanic is exposed to. As well the company may have an image they want to maintain. We as engineers could at least recognise that and act accordingly. There really isnt a one hat fits all answer to this. Regardless we all need to act like professionals and the sooner that happens the sooner we can move on.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:49 pm 
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While we are discussing dress codes why not have engineers wear five gold bars on their shoulders and the sleeves of their attire so as to point out their position in aviation compared to pilots? :smt040

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:19 pm 
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Cat Driver wrote:
While we are discussing dress codes why not have engineers wear five gold bars on their shoulders and the sleeves of their attire so as to point out their position in aviation compared to pilots? :smt040


cat,you nailed it!
maintenance is the backbone of any AMO,aviation for that matter,although we are not treated as such.
without ame's,the company has nothing.
lupin/crazy a
maybe pilots should learn to be more like engineers and learn to do a few things for themselves
instead of whining about everything.
i don't get paid to change diapers ,wipe noses and listen to their constant belly acing.
for this,i get paid less!......something wrong here.

BRV



Last edited by billy ray valintine on Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:14 pm 
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crazy_aviator wrote:
Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.

I stand to be corrected here, CA; BUT I haven't seen / read anywhere in this thread that any poster has bashed the employees. EMPLOYERS yes, Employees, nope! And given the theme of the Thread, I do believe that is not only warranted but accepted!

- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)

So, what's your recommendation? What would YOU like to see AME's wear? IF you were following the content of the thread( and you just as well may have been) you would have noted that the thread was concerning the WORKING conditions and PAY of AMEs. Both of this subjects are relevant to the dress attire, I believe. I'm working 12 hours shifts, but have been extended to another 5 hours to fix a machine that went TU on the line, I've now been working for 17 hours. In the past 17 hours I have helped do a Hot Section on a PT6; a cylinder changer on a 421, a prop change on a Bandit and a fuel tank leak inside the tank of a citation. I have PRC all over my arm and had, it's in my hair along with soot from the hot section all over my face. The coveralls I WAS wearing had oil all down the leg from pulling the cylinder on the 421, and fuel on the rest from the fuel tank on the citation, I took the coveralls off but I haven't had time to shower nor change my clothes, I have an aircraft on the line that the boss wants in the air, and I have a bunch of snot nosed piolts milling around, bugging me with, when is it going to be ready? When is it going to be ready!

My skin burns because of the fuel soaked jeans and shirt, I tried washing it off in the sink, I would have doused it properly BUT there is no emergency shower in the hangar and the boss won't give me time to do it anyway. The chafing from the wet clothes, the whining of the pilot/s, the pressure from the boss, I'm hungery, I'm cold and I'm tired. AND just for good measure I stink and I'm under paid! AND you want be to be a little more presentable?? Jesus man, I'm NOT getting paid enough to show up with a new pair of jeans, let alone have a second pair in the locker, which is NON existent because the company doesn't supply lockers nor coveralls!

- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.

- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.

Huh? See my comment above! You don't like my enounciation and vocabulary, FECH OFF!! I'm too tired and busy to engage in a meaningful conversation about your, the pilot's nor the owners observations on my attire!

- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !

I was going to say, I find it incredulous that you would even inferr that engineers should emulate drivers, Especially given that you profess to have been an Engineer for 25 years. BUT, then again I see you were a Beaver driver as well. So are you an engineer by choice or because you have to be?? IF you think drivers are smarter then engineers you need to give your head a shake! The ONLY thing that pilots ( in the major carrier market) have been smarter then engineers is that they were smart enough to form/join a union decicated specifically to furthering drivers ineterests. They have even fooled the public into believing that their job is difficult and dangerous!! And if you believe that they are correct,you'r NUTS!!

- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.

[color=#800000]I believe that in general, the majority of Engineers take their professionalism, their work standards and intergrity very seriously! The standards remain consist overall, the integrity is severely tested ad nausea by the employers. Hence we find the Canadian aviation business in the current condition. And i can promise you this, you nor i have yet to see just haw low it's going to go before it changes. Primairily because pilots are are so engraged in maintain their own interests that they won't notice the fact that the owners are letting maintenance slide. I've seen it! TCCA won't do anythingf because they are only concerned about their own job security.

The AMEs ARE doing something, - we're leaving! And it's NOT all about the money! it's about being pushed to lower our individual standards, to pencil whip things, to let things slide and to maintain the status quo for ever dwindling benefits (f any) and increased workload /hours,

AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.



Overall our house ins't in diasarray. it's the owners/operators houses that are disarray. Engineers changing the way they look, talk, walk and smell WON'T change the owners/drivers perspective of an AME. Walking away from the industry won't immediately do anything either....yet. But wait a while!!



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:08 pm 
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During the past spring when AC was in Negots, I stated that AC mech's were paid below the industry standard which drew the attention of a poster. You can see those threads under AC forum. I get paid around 32/HR, pay into a pension plan that is under water, have to pay for my health care, OT is 1.5 hr, not paid OT for travel time on rescue missions. I've also mentioned that many have gone to work for transit and are now happy. The greatest change in our industry is the gas-bar approach to maintenance. Large companies want to farm out heavy to third party. To do so they have destroyed the facilities and the infrastructure to maintain aircraft, by laying-off the AME. Although through time the AME has become more accepting of this fate, aircraft when they break have not been cooperating in the same fashion.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:09 pm 
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Once again, Bullet, human factors, Cat, Sept, BRV,and most everyone else - Great post's.

godsrcrazy, you seem to be associating prettier costumes with higher intelligence, which surprisingly would account for several a pilots attitude about themselves. Go figure.
I think perhaps from now on I'll refrain from correcting hour/cycles totals that some genius pilot manged to screw up AGAIN. I won't even touch on the steady spelling mistakes either. I could also bring up the general deer in the headlights look when I ask one those future astronauts a simple question, concerning a snag they have written, etc, etc.
I could go on, but I'll leave it at this, the BIGGEST morons I've ever dealt with in this biz have been pilots, always enhanced by arrogance.
I'm not saying none exist on the wrenching side, they most definitely do, but the grandest have always been pilots.

I don't want to see this turn into pilot vs. ame pissfest, because mostly it isn't an issue, just "individuals" announcing themselves, but with regards to costumes, I could really care less.
When plumbers start showing up in tuxes, ok, I might warm up to it, but we have a long ways to go to even MATCH what plumbers have before we worry about modeling. For right now, pay me a realistic rate and I'll worry about looking cute when I go anywhere but work, not impressing management/HR/pilots with style points. They should be impressed/grateful enough as is for what we do.

Quote:
Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.


You're comparing us to pilots, right?? Unbelievable. How would you like me to spend some time digging through the "General Comments" area, and post some links to some mature, positive, adult dialog that has been posted there??

crazy_aviator wrote:
Quote:
pilot litteracy. Its been my grim discovery that your average human being these days has little or no common sense in writing stuff on paper, absolutely poor spelling, damnable basic arithmetic skills and negligible legibility.
Twenty dollars please ( I had to do that :lol: ) I do agree that literacy is at an all time low . My grammar is good but my handwriting legibility is atrocious !!! AND IM NOT CRAZY, I JUST WORK IN AVIATION ! :? :?:


You forgot to specify that you don't include "PILOTS" when making that statement

Pat out.


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