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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:36 pm 
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I can teach the average AME how to fly an airplane in about one thenth the time I can teach the average pilot to figure out what is wrong with an airplane and then fix it.

I have a personal benchmark concerning pilots that I have formed over the decades of working in aviation.

About five percent of pilots are gifted aviators who can not only fly but they can be relied on to make make good decisions.

About three of those five percenters are also gifted mechanics.

That three percent are the ones to hire even if you don't really need them at the moment. :smt040

Even if they are foul mouthed and don't dress like royalty. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:51 pm 
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Boy, did i step onto a land mine with that post!! lol However, i did help stimulate the thread. My primary field is AME, secondary is pilot. I understand the shortcomings of both professions and the general psychological make-up of both pilots and engineers. Great posts !!!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:35 am 
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crazy_aviator wrote:
Boy, did i step onto a land mine with that post!! lol However, i did help stimulate the thread. My primary field is AME, secondary is pilot. I understand the shortcomings of both professions and the general psychological make-up of both pilots and engineers. Great posts !!!



CA:

I beg to differ! I don't see any contribution nor stimulation of any thing thats remotely related to the thread. Rather, I see that the thread has been hijacked! Your statements had nothing to do with the discussions of working conditions, the pay , morale nor the benefits the industry provides, or more correctly DON'T provide to the AME! They were and are, hoewever, condesending, insultuous and demeaning to AMEs. I like a good discussion, even if I am disagreeing with another poster. BUT, a derogatry group of statements encompassing all AMEs is non constructive, nor contributory!

Like you, my background is 35 years AME, and 20 plus years as a Commercial Driver. I became a driver because I didn't understand all the puppy yapping about how drivers deserved more money because their job was so demanding and difficult! And after all these years I still don't understand how a driver can stand there with a straight face and spout that crap! I'm an AME because I like to have a job (or I liked To have a job) that makes me think! AND, the whining from the cockpit was constantly giving me a headache, and damaging the hearing in my right ear! NOT the noise from the turbine, but rather the whinning from the snot nose in the right seat whinning how he should be a captain and he was just as good as eveybody else because he had 40 hours on this machine!!

Having said that, after 35 years as an AME and 20 plus as a driver, a Masters Degree with a minor is Psycology, I still have no freakin idea of the psycological make up of neither pilots nor engineers, other then the fact that generally drivers like attention and if they don't get it they create it themselves; while engineers have a tendency to solitary people who shun attention and have a strong distrust for any driver that attempts to get too close!.

So how about you give us you analogy of the AME.s per chance you'll open a plethora of easily rectified faults that will magically enable us all to get back into the business and earn mega dollars!!

Now THAT's how you hijack a thread!! :roll: :lol:



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:25 am 
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why is it that every time we AME'S have a valid discussion regarding OUR concerns and try to get the managers/owners to join in with their point of view,some pilot chimes in and starts putting AME'S down with his/her verbal diarrhea! pilots have no idea what it takes to do our job.
yet another reason AME'S are leaving the industry.
pilots: go to the "general comments" section and spout off there!

BRV



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:08 am 
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Bullet, if i recall correctly , the thread was already hijacked when i made the rant. I meant employers when i wrote employees sorry!
As a long time AME who appreciates and respects fellow AME s , i was being constructive when i wrote about us fellas looking at the mirror first before we point fingers elsewhere. I AGREE with you and I have been through most everythng printed here concerning working conditions, pay, lack of respect, pressuring to sign-off A/C etc. It is NOT presently fair for AME s in this industry, never was and problably never will be! My statements were aimed at those who were behaving in a manner which was not helping the MAJORITY of AME s who dont fall into those categories. I agree completely with your reply to my rant and i also sense that you understand the psychological make-up of pilots and AME s, so we dont need to go there.
Ironically, pilots come across as more intelligent but often are less,,and engineers come across as less intelligent, but are often more intelligent!
Now, back to un-hyjacking the thread ,,,,,,, If i was posting a job ad, i would specifically state the conditions, the pay range, benefits, and any other pertinant information as IF the company was advertising for a doctor or a rocket engineer ( Just like McDonalds does )



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:20 am 
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Took this from another thread on here.

"WOW. I was really not expecting it to be a downward industry. Flooring was a great job full benifits $35 per hour Union and as much overtime as I wanted at time and a half."

How many AME's honestly make $35 an hour. Some but not many.....

The one thing I found was that after 15 years of aviation. The skills I learned/developed are very transferable to just about anything out there. Being out of aviation now, I am in learning mode once again, having a solid backround in pneumatics, avionics, hydraulics, structures, piston and turbine engines along with disciplined book keeping, makes it really easy to learn new things.

Sorry for the hijack, good thread, once again the pay sucks.



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:35 pm 
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:prayer: Excellent posts and I wish more employers would sit up and listen. There are lots of other industries that prefer the AME qualifications i.e. amusement parks, transit companies, industrial companies just to name a few. We are not attracting the cream of the crop any more, and a lot of our work i.e. heavy maintenance has gone to the third world countries. We also need to take over our own destiny, Transport dumbing down the license to the point that no one knows what it means has not helped. Automotive and truck mechanics get a lot more $$$ and do not have similar responsibilities, nor do they have to sign any thing.

This discussion has been good and we need a lot more discussions and actions to keep the AME obsession alive, and I say obsession as the conditions are terrible, the money is not good, the hours are terrible, social life is limited, so why are most of us still working as AMEs ??

Thanks for listening
:prayer:



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:20 pm 
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AME 283:

As far as AMEs in general are concerned, the obsession is gone, replaced by the realization that we have been dry fornicated for eons! The obsession has been replaced by the realization that there is no future for AMEs; only years of unappreciated, non-respected, under compensated and overworked expections, by inherently self absorbed, and self entitled operators/owners, that the AME will continue to 'suck up"the imposed abuse and be grateful that are earning what they are earning!

Some of these operators feel it quite acceptable and have an incomprehensible expectation that an AME has an obligation to be available at the beck and call of these operators 24/7 365 days a year!

So in answer to your question, MOST of us are NOT working as AMEs. In fact, most are working at Transit Authorities, Wind turbine maintenance, oil Field turbine maintenance, Canada post Mechanical maintenance, trucking companies as Reefer mechs/ heavy duty mechs, Limo companies as mechs, oil field suppliers as shippers/ recievers, etc, etc. Those that ARE still working as AMEs, for the most part, feel they have no other ecourse and must stick with what they have. Usualy because of their unfamilarity with the unknown. And usually, once they are made aware of how easy it is to get work with respectable pay, hours, benefits, and even a life, they turn tail and tell the operators/owner where to shove this feckin business!


The sadest realization, to me anyways, is the lack of support the line/floor engineer recieves from the AME direct Supervisors ; I.E. DOM. Maintenance manages, etc. I recall one situation where there was a well written and presented, justifiable wage increase request submitted to the wage review board by a certian Director in Mainetance (not the DOM) ; While the wage increase was approved, in principle by the reviewing board, it was shot down by the director himself! AND, KNOWING I was on the review board, he had the audicty to tel his subordinates that he fought tooth and nail but the increase was shot down!`This happens much more often then people realize! I could name two Director of Maintenace for TWO Northern operators that wouldn't stand up for their folks as well. So while I shit on operators and owners, IF the Maingtenance mangers don't have enough balls to stand up to the operaors/owners, we have to do it on our own!

And, in a round about way, we ARE doing that! WE have already stated, SHOW ME THE FECKIN MONEY. The owners/operators have refused and they have ended up in the position they are currently in. They will still get some assinine idiot to work for them, there will always be some moronic idiot that wants to be a manager, but isn't smart enough to realize that he doesn't have the experience level and the knowledge to correctly do the job! The owners/operators will suck these folks in, chew them up and spit em out! This will happen until TCCA pulls the OC after a couple of majoer accidents. Mark my words, it's not a matter of IF, its a matter of when! I'll put money on it!

My recommendation is: if you can;t get what you whnat and neeed from aviation, get out! There's more to be earned, (and NOT just money) from outside of aviation then in!



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:03 pm 
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planemikey wrote:
Planefixer and Pat Richard going direct is an Idea but thats where it ends. here's just a few reason's why :
Mikey, Mikey-that's NOT entirely true! But Understanding that you are attempting to secure your job security I understand your statements, despite my perception that they maybe a be askewed in your favour!

1) The corporations looking for the engineers have HR departments that basically don't know one engineer from the other. The "agencies" through years of industry knowledge of both matching an engineer with a product and task has a better chance of being succesful in getting the right person .This is NOT enitrely true, While YOUR agency has a licensed Engineer on staff, i know several other agencies that have NO engineer NOR aviation trained people on staff! So comparing your company with ALL contract agencies isn't correct!
2) Using an agency keeps the contractors at an arms length from the DOM ,PRM so as to not promote favoritism and hassles of phone calls , anger and resentment .This isn't a major concern for PRMs / DOM. In MOST cases the contractor/s are left to their own in the field anyways. USUALLY the contractor is brought in because he/she possess a speciality skill / endorsement NOT available from In-HOUSE personnel. In essence, the DOM my have no idea what the contractor is doing NOT doing and depends upon the contractor to do what he/she has been hired to do.
3) Using another corporation ensures : That their premises are insured , their WCB is not compormised by a disguntled contractor and is provided . Huh? getting a ECB number is cheap as dirt and easy. Again, most companies require that the contractor have this BEFORE they arrive on the premises. Insurance is CHEAP as well. Having said that , I have never been required to show proof of insurance 9 evne though I have it) to any employer/company. AND, after contacting 7 companies in Western canada that use Mikey's agency and others, they (the company) stated that they didn't require a contractor to carry individual insurance,rather the contractor was covered under the company's insurance.
4) One contract one rate no hassles , flights , accomodations all arranged Huh? That's USUALLY a given! look at the rates posted by your latest ad. Funny thing is it's the exact same rate as those posted by three other contract agencies looking to fill the exact same positions. AND it matters little who arranges the hotels, flights etc, etc. Your stance on this issue has no bearing on the AME, rather it is the responsibility of the company, not the AME, so moot point!
5) When or if the hirer has issues with a contracter its the agency that has to pay that person , and to pay to get them out of town and that agency then has to put someone else in at no cost to the Hirer .SURPRISE! Doesn't matter WHO has an issue, contract agency or the employer! The employer is responsible UNDER LAW to get the contractor in, and out. Both at the completion of the contract and termination of the contract - assuming of course that the company terminates the working agreement BEFORE the agreed upon completion dtae!
6) Hirer coensn't have to deal with contractors wanting advances, invoices and time cards not matching etc... and they can pay the agencies in 90 days and in most circumstances do .Wouldn' I like a free 90 day loan !!Now that's funny!!While I have never had to seek an advance, etc I know at least 4 people that were in dire situations and went seeking assistance from the Contractor placement agency - the same agency that they had done several contracts through previously - the agency essentially told em to GFYS. And Good Luck with that 90 day loan. You shouldn't need it if you are still getting paid in advance, so why are you asking??
7) When the AMO or Airline goes tits up and files for bankruptcy is is less personal to shaft an agency which also happens. Over seas companies sometimes don't pay no matter what and the contractor is still paid through the agency. This is part and parcel of business. having stated that, the history of contractor being burnt by companies going Tits up are miniscule. And the number of AMEs being burned by companies going TITS up are the same. HOWEVER, when we compare the number of AMEs burnt by contract placement agencies, the number rises expotentially
8) The agency provides a legal buffer from the CCRA in that the engineer is a contractor not a temporary employee which is huge $$ Now this statement is absolute bullshit!! A contractor in 99% of the cases that I have dealt with HAS TO HAVE A GST number. This means that the contractor is either a proprietorship OR a company. EITHER way, the contractor is obligated by law to pay CCRA, NOT the company
9) When the Agencies engineer has a heart Attack the agency pays for the Medivac ...

......and on and on it goes .
Add to that the current back stabbing within the industry of engineers underbidding each other to get work and you can see this will not work. Some Companies :) are trying this and rubbing their hands together in glee taking advantage of the engineers and using engineers that were provided to them before by the agency but when things pick back up this will turn sour.... Agencies and engineers , despite all the rederict , have great memories


Geez, I haven't seen ä lot"of back stabbing between AMEs, here Mike. I have seen a lot of whittling of öther agencies"by contract placement agencies. Having said that, I'm not implying it doesn't happen! I'm sure it does! What i'm saying is that your stance as you've stated here, isn't necessarily any better for the AME then what they are gettin now as a full time employee. By NOT going through a contrcator placement company,my hourly rate jumps 20 to 25.00 WITHOUT negogiating! This rate increase more then off sets any added costs including emergency transport out should a Medivac be required, WCB , CCRA taxes, etc, etc.

Having stated that, there will always be people that will want to use the services of an agency. And i have no difficulty accepting that...for them. However, in my case, i can show where I earned 31,00 additional over 18 monyths, by NOT using a contract placement agency. And I know, pretty well to the penny what MOST companies ( at least three) pay an agency per engineer. I'd much rather prefer that this money go into my bank account rather then the agency. The agency is NOT there to secure the best interest of the AME. rather they are similiar to the AME in that their interest is paramount! If some wish t use an agency ,have at er. I can do much better on my own! As can most other AMEs.



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:39 pm 
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Bullet Remington wrote:
planemikey wrote:
Planefixer and Pat Richard going direct is an Idea but thats where it ends. here's just a few reason's why :
Mikey, Mikey-that's NOT entirely true! But Understanding that you are attempting to secure your job security I understand your statements, despite my perception that they maybe a be askewed in your favour!

1) The corporations looking for the engineers have HR departments that basically don't know one engineer from the other. The "agencies" through years of industry knowledge of both matching an engineer with a product and task has a better chance of being succesful in getting the right person .This is NOT enitrely true, While YOUR agency has a licensed Engineer on staff, i know several other agencies that have NO engineer NOR aviation trained people on staff! So comparing your company with ALL contract agencies isn't correct!
2) Using an agency keeps the contractors at an arms length from the DOM ,PRM so as to not promote favoritism and hassles of phone calls , anger and resentment .This isn't a major concern for PRMs / DOM. In MOST cases the contractor/s are left to their own in the field anyways. USUALLY the contractor is brought in because he/she possess a speciality skill / endorsement NOT available from In-HOUSE personnel. In essence, the DOM my have no idea what the contractor is doing NOT doing and depends upon the contractor to do what he/she has been hired to do.
3) Using another corporation ensures : That their premises are insured , their WCB is not compormised by a disguntled contractor and is provided . Huh? getting a ECB number is cheap as dirt and easy. Again, most companies require that the contractor have this BEFORE they arrive on the premises. Insurance is CHEAP as well. Having said that , I have never been required to show proof of insurance 9 evne though I have it) to any employer/company. AND, after contacting 7 companies in Western canada that use Mikey's agency and others, they (the company) stated that they didn't require a contractor to carry individual insurance,rather the contractor was covered under the company's insurance.
4) One contract one rate no hassles , flights , accomodations all arranged Huh? That's USUALLY a given! look at the rates posted by your latest ad. Funny thing is it's the exact same rate as those posted by three other contract agencies looking to fill the exact same positions. AND it matters little who arranges the hotels, flights etc, etc. Your stance on this issue has no bearing on the AME, rather it is the responsibility of the company, not the AME, so moot point!
5) When or if the hirer has issues with a contracter its the agency that has to pay that person , and to pay to get them out of town and that agency then has to put someone else in at no cost to the Hirer .SURPRISE! Doesn't matter WHO has an issue, contract agency or the employer! The employer is responsible UNDER LAW to get the contractor in, and out. Both at the completion of the contract and termination of the contract - assuming of course that the company terminates the working agreement BEFORE the agreed upon completion dtae!
6) Hirer coensn't have to deal with contractors wanting advances, invoices and time cards not matching etc... and they can pay the agencies in 90 days and in most circumstances do .Wouldn' I like a free 90 day loan !!Now that's funny!!While I have never had to seek an advance, etc I know at least 4 people that were in dire situations and went seeking assistance from the Contractor placement agency - the same agency that they had done several contracts through previously - the agency essentially told em to GFYS. And Good Luck with that 90 day loan. You shouldn't need it if you are still getting paid in advance, so why are you asking??
7) When the AMO or Airline goes tits up and files for bankruptcy is is less personal to shaft an agency which also happens. Over seas companies sometimes don't pay no matter what and the contractor is still paid through the agency. This is part and parcel of business. having stated that, the history of contractor being burnt by companies going Tits up are miniscule. And the number of AMEs being burned by companies going TITS up are the same. HOWEVER, when we compare the number of AMEs burnt by contract placement agencies, the number rises expotentially
8) The agency provides a legal buffer from the CCRA in that the engineer is a contractor not a temporary employee which is huge $$ Now this statement is absolute bullshit!! A contractor in 99% of the cases that I have dealt with HAS TO HAVE A GST number. This means that the contractor is either a proprietorship OR a company. EITHER way, the contractor is obligated by law to pay CCRA, NOT the company
i understand that being set up as a company completely removes tax responsibility from the employer. What buffer exactly does an agency provide?? I don't ever recall collecting tax from me.
9) When the Agencies engineer has a heart Attack the agency pays for the Medivac ...Can you be specific? As far as I can remember, provincial air ambulances transported to/from their respected provinces, as long as the patient was current with MSP. What scenario demands separate payment for this in Canada?

......and on and on it goes .
Add to that the current back stabbing within the industry of engineers underbidding each other to get work and you can see this will not work. Some Companies :) are trying this and rubbing their hands together in glee taking advantage of the engineers and using engineers that were provided to them before by the agency but when things pick back up this will turn sour.... Agencies and engineers , despite all the rederict , have great memories


Geez, I haven't seen ä lot"of back stabbing between AMEs, here Mike. I have seen a lot of whittling of öther agencies"by contract placement agencies. Having said that, I'm not implying it doesn't happen! I'm sure it does! What i'm saying is that your stance as you've stated here, isn't necessarily any better for the AME then what they are gettin now as a full time employee. By NOT going through a contrcator placement company,my hourly rate jumps 20 to 25.00 WITHOUT negogiating! This rate increase more then off sets any added costs including emergency transport out should a Medivac be required, WCB , CCRA taxes, etc, etc.

Having stated that, there will always be people that will want to use the services of an agency. And i have no difficulty accepting that...for them. However, in my case, i can show where I earned 31,00 additional over 18 monyths, by NOT using a contract placement agency. And I know, pretty well to the penny what MOST companies ( at least three) pay an agency per engineer. I'd much rather prefer that this money go into my bank account rather then the agency. The agency is NOT there to secure the best interest of the AME. rather they are similiar to the AME in that their interest is paramount! If some wish t use an agency ,have at er. I can do much better on my own! As can most other AMEs.



I was in the process of researching some of mikeys replies, but BR beat me to it :) The compo and tax stuff I new to be false, and the insurance part has never been asked for by any company when i went direct. It was always that I was under house insurance. Don't know why there is such a discrepancy in opinion on this point.
For me personally, it's time to see some decent increase in pay for what I have proven I can do, and that just isn't happening with any agency. The pros outweigh the cons when it comes to earning 20-25 more an hour, and I'm perfectly capable of booking my own flights/accommodation if needed. Generally, even this is handled by the company bringing the contractor in.
Other than taking phone calls, making phone calls/sending emails, I don't see the value in the current crop of agencies. I know there are some individuals who would be lost without having all the above done for them, but these are the same ones, from personal experience, that are the most useless twats.

"You get what you pay for." also applies to agencies, so I'll say again to the companies looking for good guys - pay higher to your staff, or hire contractors direct for what you're currently paying agencies for them, and don't *uck them around.

You WILL be surprised at what REALLY is available.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:38 pm 
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This post is for all those companies that are looking for experience engineers.
It is fine to look for qualified poeple to do the maintenance on your planes, but at the same time us engineers would like to get paid for our qualifications. I did not go to school for 2 years and apprentice for more than that to get $20-$25 dollars/hr. I CAN FIX TOILETS FOR THAT AMOUNT. Like some post that I have read, you go and look for workers on these recruting companies that charge you 70/hr and we get paid 30-40. Where is the rest of the money goes.? to some one that collects resumes and nothing more. Why not pay these engineers top money for their qualities instead of given the money to recruters. I would work any where for $70/hr and I will fix your planes the right way the first time. You rather hire apprentices for peanuts and expect quality work. I rather hire someone that has been in the industry for many years, even if they have no experience on the type of planes you operate. We have the knowlege and the ability to read manuals and I am sure with a little bit of help from the experts we can do the same job.



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:33 pm 
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bump :D

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:34 am 
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In my opinion,

The situation AMEs face through out the industry is due to our past actions or inaction. We can blame management for all that ails us but as a group, we never organized. We always walk alone and tend to our own thing. In life, if you do not organize, you get organized. One can think that he can fend for himself but when you are faced with large corporations, you will find out that your influence as an individual is quite limited.

Companies have large resources compared to the individual AME. They can easily compose a business plan with a mission, objectives and the methods that will be used to obtain these objectives. They also have the funds necessary to set out this plan into action. We don’t even have the structure to compose a plan to address our concerns… we are totally dependent on what the corporations want.

The various industry groups are controlled by managers whose interests are directed by large corporations. Whether you think of CARAC or the AME associations, the people involved in these groups are generally managers or delegates from the big corporations. Just look at the corporate sponsors for all the AME association, sponsorship usually implies a liability towards these entities. These companies don’t blindly give out funds to help the AME associations, they expect some sort of immediate or future considerations in return.

This isn’t speech for unions, as I don’t believe any union has an adequate structure to address our needs as AMEs. What we need is some sort of organized association to address our concerns and properly represent us. A professional body similar to what the doctors, accountants and lawyers have. We need a clear unified voice at Transport Canada, in order to get our interests represented. We need a clear voice at CARAC in order to balance the influence that is currently enjoyed by the big guns. Right now, Air Canada, Westjet, Bombardier, Pratt & Whitney, Transat, Jazz and a few other yield all the influence at those councils and as a result, the AMEs have little influence on their trades. How many of the last licensing changes have been done to improve our trade? Ever wonder why?

SMS is a great example of this. The corporations pushing this, all love the idea of self audit but the AMEs see what goes on every day. I have yet to meet an AME who hasn’t seen how companies pervert the principles of SMS to achieve their goals. And now, with a TC not doing any formal audits, everyone gets away without consequence if no accident happens. We are the only one on the planet using SMS. With all the latest kerflufal in the US (American with the MDs, Southwest with their 737 etc) I doubt the US will let the companies self supervise…

So in a way, our own inaction is the direct cause of where we are today. We are the puppets in a system controlled by large corporations. We think our influence is great but in the big scheme of things, it is quite limited.

My years in University have thought me allot on organization and the need for it. If we continue on wondering individually instead of moving in a specific generally unified direction, we will continue to be victims.

Many like the prospect of an AME shortage, yet they fail to see a danger in the shortage. If the large corporations ask Transport Canada for an alternate route to AME licensing, how will that affect us? Remember the government’s role is to help the corporations with their needs. A training initiative for AMEs is likely to be at the demand and with the requirements of these large corporations. Will the outcome be a watering down of our trade? What if, due to the lack of AMEs, TC accepts South Americans mechanics at par with the AME? How will that affect our trade, how will that affect the shortage that so many like to see? What if TC approves a learner program like was once the case at some large corporations? Is any regards to quality addressed in these changes? Will your voice be heard?

Today’s AME has great training and an impressive knowledge base. Our knowledge transfers very easily to other trades such as heavy equipment maintenance, transit, electrical work, millwrights etc. Most prefer to jump ship and work in another trade then to get involved with the organization of our profession. Maybe that is our downfall….

Lupin



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:51 pm 
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Hey mods, any chance of making this thread a sticky??

lots of the same facts being posted here, might help the newbs coming on here with the same questions about being a mechanic these days.

Just a thought...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:08 pm 
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Pat Richard wrote:
Hey mods, any chance of making this thread a sticky??

lots of the same facts being posted here, might help the newbs coming on here with the same questions about being a mechanic these days.

Just a thought...


+1 on this.........best thread I think I have ever been involved with period.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:56 am 
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I have said this before and I will say it again the “Trade” of Aircraft Maintenance Engineer must become a restricted trade. Meaning that no one may do the work of an AME unless signed up as an apprentice (with the apprenticeship board each province has one). This regulates the number of licensed journeyman to apprentice ratio (Heavy duty Equipment Technician is 1 to 1). The minimum wage of the apprentice is stipulated as a percentage of the company’s base licensed rate based on progress. Ie. 1st year 60% 2nd year 70% 3rd year 80% 4rth year 90%.

One of the reasons that aviation has lagged sadly is because of the way it is regulated at the federal level. Transport Canada really needs to look at the provincial model when looking at AME as a trade. Currently you could have 100 apprentices and one licensed guy signing off and it would be legal. There is no incentive for either the company or the employee to reach for the next level as an apprentice. The pay is crap (especially for apprentices) and there is no end in sight.

The provincial model is not perfect but it is a far more proactive approach to the AME trade than the current federal model.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:22 am 
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hoptwoit,

To do what you suggest........what would it take? It seems the system we currently have is deeply entrenched and we would come up against massive resistance and quite likely....repercussions.

I'm not sure how it all happened really with AME's in the first place as every other trade went the more restricted route.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:33 am 
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I've been arguing about this apprenticeship thing with ITABC (Industry training authority of BC) Revenue Canada, and a couple of Ministers (Flaherty, and another few, that i can't remember off the top of my head.) Mainly from the stand point of Tax Benefits, because all the red seal trades, and the Non red seal apprenticeships managed by ITABC, get tax benefits for being apprentices, and us as in industry don't. A lot of people have gone and filled in the Income tax forms, and taken advantage of the benefit, even though we aren't entitled to it, but if they where to get audited, Rev Canada would take away those tax deductions, and impose a fine on these people. I was trying to get the minister of human resources, or else the minister of finance, to approve the AME apprenticeship for the tax benefits, but they said that you had to talk to ITABC, ITABC says you have to join "their" program, which isn't A Transport Canada approved Apprenticeship program, And neither Government body (ITABC or Transport Canada) is going to want to relinquish power over their little domain, in order to benefit the AME or the AME apprentice.

It would be so much easier if Transport Canada just handed over the AME apprenticeship training to ITABC, and just "govern" the standards and regs that ITABC, (and all the other apprenticeship training government bodies in Canada) is to follow, but that would cost too many Transport Canada employees their jobs.

But then if it did cost employees their jobs, they could set up a "consulting" business for ITABC, and reap the benefits of "teaching" ITABC how to approve training, and the apprenticeship of AME's.

My thoughts have always been that maybe "ITABC" should be controlling the apprenticeship program, and the AME licensing, because that is all they do. But I don't see it happenning ever in our industry, because we as an industry, ussually just bend over, and take it.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:55 am 
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mmartin:

recognigtion of the AME as an approved apprenticeship is done at the provincial level, I BELIEVE! And i stand to be corrected. In Alberta, AME apprenticeship is a recogized apprenticeship. Here, (Alberta0 apprentices can realize the full benefits of the tax system, as can AME's. I was doing it when i was active in the aviation racket and my current AME does it annually. He gets full tax benefits.

Personally, and it may be just me, I don't want to see anything handed over to any beautacrat in BC. That province scares the crap outa me! i have a business office in YVR and every time I go there, I keep wondering why I tolerate the BS of the city, the province and the government!

Having said that, IF BC wanted to control the BC AMEs have at her!!! Just as long as they left the rest of canada alone, i'm good with that!



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:30 pm 
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I was after it more for just the "tax benefits." I really don't care about the beauracrats, their jobs, or any of that stuff. I just wanted one person to say "AME's can use the tax benefits," but the federal government says that it is an issue to deal with the provincial Industry training authority, and the industry training authority says that the "federal government" has the right to approve or not approve it, not them.

ITABC has made it even harder by creating two bogus Aircraft Maintenance apprenticeships (Aircraft maintenance technician, and aircraft structures technician.)

When i was arguing with them, I was just a lowly AME "s" apprentice, trying to get the ability to use the provincial tax credits. But they had no "approved training schools on their list. of schools" And then you had to have a Aircraft structures technician (not an ame "s") say that you had done the hours required by them.

Well who in their right mind would go and apply for this "ITA" program. It was ridiculous. Now I notice they atleast have 3 schools approved for counting towards your ITA BS apprenticeship (which gets you no signing authority on civil aviation aircraft). And then they want you to Pay for taking tests with them, which help you in no way, and then pay for applying, and pay for all the other BS that they control. And on top of that you still have to pay Transport Canada. After it is all said and done, paying for the 2 groups of people, it was better not to even go for the tax credit. Because what was it $1200 or something along those lines, but on your tax return it made a difference of about $100 maybe $200.

I think that Canada should just make the AME apprenticeship a "Red Seal" trade. Because it virtually is. But it isn't because it is controlled by Transport Canadas regulations and standards instead of the acts/regulations/standards that control all the other apprenticeships in Canada. (I Believe it's HRSDC, or possibly the Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship(it's been a while since i did the research)).

AME's are already controlled by beauracrats. The 3 good things of switching who controls the AME apprenticeship is (that i can think of anyways):
1. The tax benefits, being the same from province to province (Because here in BC i could not get approval for the AME 's' apprenticeship that I had done, and am doing again (I've decided to go for my "M" license now and am just waiting to have enough "tasks" signed off in my log book to go apply.)
2. the apprentice vs journeymen/licensed ame's that the other poster a couple of places up had mentioned. It would force employers to have more AME mechanics working on the equipment, and less apprentices doing the work. Which in turn would mean employers would have to pay skilled mechanics, in order to have unskilled mechanics working.
3. Being able to collect EI while going to school doing your apprenticeship training, unless of course you are lucky enough to get laid off just before school starts, get all the EI paperwork and hoops dealt with and enrolled in time to get into class.. All other apprentices get this benefit, but we do not.

Disadvantages that i can think of:
One more beauracrat for us to bend over for.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:02 pm 
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hoptwoit wrote:
One of the reasons that aviation has lagged sadly is because of the way it is regulated at the federal level. Transport Canada really needs to look at the provincial model when looking at AME as a trade.


Are there any other trades regulated federally that could be looked at for a model?

I find it very interesting to watch this discussion and compare it to the one going on in the general forum about the "College of Pilots". Many of the "complaints" heard from pilots are similar or identical to those heard here ...

If the CPPC is indeed looking at taking over pilot oversight under TC's new Safety Partnership Program, could this not be used in the same way to have an industry organization take over AME's?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:39 pm 
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Apprenticeship and Trades in general are regulated provincially. "Red Seal " Trades are trades that have applied for Red seal approval in Canada, by having the same course requirements/training requirements, in each province. The Canadian government (through legislation in the HRSDC acts/regulations i believe) handed over all apprenticeship training (except for AME's) to the Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship, who in turn hands over the "keys" to the provincial entities (ITABC, AIT of Alberta, Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities (ontario)).

To further complicate things, not all "red seal" trades in BC are considered red seal trades in, lets say Alberta. But the requirement is that atleast 2 or 3 provinces have to have that "specific" trade in their "apprenticeship programs that are controlled by ITA, AIT, MOTCU, etc." in order to apply for Red Seal Status.

You will find though, that most if not all "red seal" trades are country wide.

The issue is the fact, that nobody likes change, nobody likes losing jobs and control (the two different government enitities), and AME's in general, like to bend over, and well, you know the saying.

I myself, don't know what to do to solve the problem, but I do know what the problem is, and then I also, have fought long enough with the government, to just not give a rats ass anymore, other than in conversations like this, which get me all ryled up about how often, we get screwed over in this industry.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:49 pm 
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Widow wrote:
hoptwoit wrote:
One of the reasons that aviation has lagged sadly is because of the way it is regulated at the federal level. Transport Canada really needs to look at the provincial model when looking at AME as a trade.


Are there any other trades regulated federally that could be looked at for a model?


How about rail and marine? Both are federally regulated under TC.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:51 pm 
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I am going to post a link here to a thread from a ways back. I have not researched if the information I posted is accurate as of today but it will give you an idea of the process of a restricted trade. At the time many of the provinces were starting to recognize the spaceship of an AME this is a step but in order to protect he quality of the trade (which in my opinion has already slipped) the restricted trade model would go along way to rectifying more than a few problems. I believe if properly implemented it could raise the quality of the training that an individual receives while apprenticing. Increase level of accomplishment and professionalism that an AME feels and conducts him of her self with. Improve the wages an individual receives across the trade at any experience level. Increase the quality of the maintenance that is performed. Perhaps most importantly increase the safety of the flying public.

Information note: The original thread was started as a low wage concern and there is a little heat in the debate but the information is all there. Even if it's a bit of a read. The restricted trade stuff doesn’t come in until page 3 or 4 but the preamble gives you a good idea of perspective when it comes to the acceptance of an AME as a skilled tradesman.

http://www.avcanada.ca//forums2/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23311


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:41 am 
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A lot of good posts, back to the subject at hand-- DOM for this company ==is OK

BE VERY careful of the rest and DO your research on a few of the folks running the place! You have been warned!!!!!!!



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