Future AME Discouraged

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Pat Richard
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#76 Post by Pat Richard » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:43 pm

try here

http://www.verticalmag.com/


probably get a faster reply.

good luck
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#77 Post by ourkid2000 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:51 pm

I can't believe I'm telling this story on here but I've been so bummed out all day over it that I just had to rant to someone. Anyways......so, my hot water tank burst yesterday and made a mess.....Our home warranty covered the damages & a new hot water tank. So the company sends out the local plumbing service to install the new tank and remove the old one, yadda yadda yadda.

So I'm outside having a look at what happened to our old one and I get talking to the guy. He's in his late 20's (much younger than me) and I ask him how long he's been doing it. He says about 5 years or so........roughly the same as I.

I mention to him that I'm thinking of leaving the aircraft maintenance industry and ask him if his job is decent. He starts telling me pretty much everything about it.........the guy's getting $32 per hour and he's very happy with his pension (this is Nova Scotia now too.....not Alberta). He also mentions how happy he his with the job overall and that he recommends it to anyone who asks.

So here I am standing in front of this fella with 3 years of schooling behind me, M2 & E license and an ACA on a transport category aircraft for a major airline makin' 25 bucks an hour. I won't see 32 bucks an hour for another 5 years.

I'm not ashamed to say I've been gutted the whole day.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#78 Post by Pat Richard » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:19 pm

Yep, it is what it is....

Would any mouthfoamer like to chime in with a "cant handle the pressure", "money isn't everything", "its cooler fixing airplanes", "my basement suite is all I want", "if you don't like it leave", etc, etc etc??

Maybe you had an epiphany...

trying to be positive
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#79 Post by Fling Wing » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:43 pm

Couple days ago I talked too a rotary AME. Asked him about the job, the sched, the ups and downs. His only gripe was dealing with hotshot pilots, the rest he said he loves, working outside on a big helicopter, never knowing where you and the helicopter will be the next day (they were chasing fires or something).

I asked him if he still like's his job, his reply: I've been doing this for 20 years and don't see myself leaving anytime soon.

Fixing helicopters is cooler than fixing airplanes.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#80 Post by torx » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:17 pm

ourkid2000 wrote:I can't believe I'm telling this story on here but I've been so bummed out all day over it that I just had to rant to someone. Anyways......so, my hot water tank burst yesterday and made a mess.....Our home warranty covered the damages & a new hot water tank. So the company sends out the local plumbing service to install the new tank and remove the old one, yadda yadda yadda.
I mention to him that I'm thinking of leaving the aircraft maintenance industry and ask him if his job is decent. He starts telling me pretty much everything about it.........the guy's getting $32 per hour and he's very happy with his pension (this is Nova Scotia now too.....not Alberta). He also mentions how happy he his with the job overall and that he recommends it to anyone who asks.
So here I am standing in front of this fella with 3 years of schooling behind me, M2 & E license and an ACA on a transport category aircraft for a major airline makin' 25 bucks an hour. I won't see 32 bucks an hour for another 5 years.
I'm not ashamed to say I've been gutted the whole day.
Well there you have it Ourkid! You've been poking holes in the industry you chose for some time now, so if you're still young enough, quit your sh*t paying AME job and be a plumber. In ten years down the road, when there are a glut of plumbers looking for work and a shortage of AMEs', you'll be having the same discussion with an AME while fixing his water tank. You'll be making $30/hr and the AME will be making $50/hr.
It ain't all gravy boy! :lol:
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#81 Post by ourkid2000 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:14 pm

Don't get me wrong Torx.....I love my job. I simply feel that what you put into a career path should jive pretty well with what you get out. Right now, it's just not working out that way. If you spent 50k on school, would you expect to be paid $25 an hour?

Way back in 2002 I had been a rampie at Air Canada for several years and found myself laid off many times. I was getting really sick of this routine and finally decided to make a change. I took this opportunity to get some Gov't assistance to be an AME. As part of that process, I had to do some market research about the future of the career. Well one thing I had was a copy of AC's current IAMAW contract (same union with the mech's) and what the AME's were making back then. That contract, I believe, was signed in 99'.....somewhere around that time anyways. I used this as part of my research to present to my case-worker and I still have the information package I presented them and what I predicted for my future.

The wages really have not changed much since......

For example....when I left AC, a Lead on the ramp made 24 bucks an hour at the top rate. After 3 years of schooling, 2 years apprenticing as an Avionics tech & 1 year apprenticing as a Mechanic, Transport Canada CARS exams, ACA exams, logbook, and almost 6 years in I only make 2 bucks an hour more than the Lead......10 years later. A plumber, who took a 2 course and worked as an apprentice for 4 years now makes more than a 20 year Crew Chief AME responsible for heavy maintenance & dozens of AME's at a major airline. So what I put into what I do just doesn't jive.

Don't get me wrong, I know life as a rampie hasn't been easy either.......it just seems the regular rules of careers don't apply to the AME trade compared to other trades. I just do not see how it happened.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#82 Post by Pat Richard » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:17 pm

In ten years down the road, when there are a glut of plumbers looking for work and a shortage of AMEs', you'll be having the same discussion with an AME while fixing his water tank. You'll be making $30/hr and the AME will be making $50/hr.
There will no shortage, there is no shortage of experienced AME's.

There is, and will be, a shortage of experienced AME's wanting to work for 30 bucks an hour.

You're effing dreaming, or stoned, thinking you will see majority of AME's making 50 a/hr.

Nice try though, but that pipe dream has been around almost as long as airplanes.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#83 Post by billy ray valintine » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:32 pm

Pat Richard wrote:
In ten years down the road, when there are a glut of plumbers looking for work and a shortage of AMEs', you'll be having the same discussion with an AME while fixing his water tank. You'll be making $30/hr and the AME will be making $50/hr.
There will no shortage, there is no shortage of experienced AME's.

There is, and will be, a shortage of experienced AME's wanting to work for 30 bucks an hour.

You're effing dreaming, or stoned, thinking you will see majority of AME's making 50 a/hr.

Nice try though, but that pipe dream has been around almost as long as airplanes.
+1 on that! :lol:
too many ladder climbers(idiots) willing to do this job for a shit wage who can't say no!
AME'S will NOT see 50.00/hr ,ever!!!!!................................sorry.

brv
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#84 Post by The Weasel » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:34 pm

billy ray valintine wrote: +1 on that! :lol:
too many ladder climbers(idiots) willing to do this job for a shit wage who can't say no!
AME'S will NOT see 50.00/hr ,ever!!!!!................................sorry.

brv
This is an interesting comment. Yes, 50/hr is out there, I've been there and seen others doing it, but I guess some people say no to working certain jobs...If you want to work in the bush, do some travelling, or work contract, 50/hr is out there for the taking. But I guess too many people say no to it, thus the reason it is 50/hr. Granted, things are slower the last few years so maybe not 50/hr for a while, but give it a few more years, and we'll be back to the shortage of AMEs we had 4-5 years ago, and yes, there WAS a shortage of (rotary) AMEs 4-5 years ago, despite the comments made by Pat.

Sorry guys, but once again you are bad mouthing the WHOLE industry, when you can't speak for the whole industry. Not everyone is in the same boat. Sounds like things are pretty rough on the union/Air Canada side of the industry, but it's not the same all over.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#85 Post by Pat Richard » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:23 pm

Granted, things are slower the last few years so maybe not 50/hr for a while, but give it a few more years, and we'll be back to the shortage of AMEs we had 4-5 years ago, and yes, there WAS a shortage of (rotary) AMEs 4-5 years ago, despite the comments made by Pat.
I'll try this again.....

There is no shortage of experienced AME's, there is a shortage of experienced AME's willing to work for 30ish an hour in shitty conditions
In the case of helicopters, by saying you couldnt get guys for a supposed $50 a/hr, of which I know no one making, you are actually admitting not many want to work in the conditions I described earlier.
If conditions were/are so shit hot with regards to lifestyle/working conditions, and they're offering $50 a/hr, like you and others claim here, why no stampede?? Why the shortage??? What was keeping people away or making them leave??? I dare say more than one person had the same opinion of that lifestyle that I did and they have talked with their feet and continue to do so.

A question everyone should be asking is why is it so hard for companies right now, in a recession, to find experienced AME's?? I could name three companies that can't even find enough contractors right now.
The "shortage" from a couple years ago never really abated, and the then booming economy blew up in aviation's face. Many good guys left for better offers in other fields instead of staying at there old aviation jobs. Money/lifestyle talked and off they went, and it is still going on.

The biggest reason I call BS on the wages going to 50 a/hr is that I saw how cheap companies were to most experienced guys during the last "boom". This was a boom most long timers had never seen the likes of EVER, and although most every company was screaming for guys, you were hard pressed to get much more than 30 bucks an hour with night shift thrown in.

It set a precedent, and this is why I believe things will not get better.

Don't know if I was also being included with the AC thing, but I have said it before, and will again, "I've never worked for AC/Jazz or any union in aviation.", and I don't claim to speak for the WHOLE of aviation.

Just most of it 8)
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#86 Post by ourkid2000 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:16 am

Instead of arguing, lets switch it up and try to figure out how this happened......

How is it that we've hit this $30 per hour ceiling for such a specialized field? I blame it on the airlines.

Airlines have been so hard on so many mechanics over the years that many of them feel lucky to have a job so they'll take less than ideal conditions just to keep paying the bills
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#87 Post by PJ1 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:23 pm

I still visit avcanada just for old times sake, I guess aviation is still in my blood. Having said that I quit it all together three years ago. When I quit AC I had a M1,M2 319,320,321 757,767 200-300 series endorsements. Along with a bunch of engine endorsements. In 99 I was a new AME and a acting CAT at air canada and made $31 per hour. When I quit in 2008 I made $32 per hour strapped with a family and mortgage I was broke as a joke. The wages are the shits period. In both M1 and M2 world.

The AME is a multy talented highly skilled individual, the problem with "most of you" is that you are too chicken shit to try something new.

At this point I am non current and hope I never have to earn a living in aviation. I'm 35 if any one is wondering, started GA at 18 licenced by 22. I have to say that I was warned by the old timers but like many other young apprentices on here I did not listen.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#88 Post by crazy_aviator » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:53 pm

Could you enlighten us on what profession you have chosen now and how the renumeraton is ?
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#89 Post by Wonderdog » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:00 pm

If there is one tool you want in life, is the ability to fix and fly. The career will keep your head up, your income down and horizons wild open.
Have fun,
SMcL.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#90 Post by PJ1 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:45 am

crazy_aviator wrote:Could you enlighten us on what profession you have chosen now and how the renumeraton is ?

I started my own business doing septic system installations, septic fields and holding tanks for the most part. Also do municipal sewer and water installs. My net is anywhere between 2K to 6K a week but only for eight months of the year. Between dec and march I dont work much.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#91 Post by ourkid2000 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:13 am

Nice work PJ1.....

Good to see someone go for it. I think that most people are starting to clue in that there's simply not a great future in fixing airplanes and are making plans to get out. Of course there are exceptions to this and I'm sure there are some decent jobs out there but they're very hard to find.

I'm 33 and everywhere I've worked so far, I am usually the oldest guy on the crew. So it seems that there is plenty of young people still young enough to get out and I've been seeing more and more people leave as of late.

I told my plumber story around the hangar a few days ago to just about anyone who would listen and people were loosing their minds!
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#92 Post by conehead » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:54 pm

A few years ago a plumber was called to my buddys house. When he showed up, my buddy noticed that the guy was wearing a Jazz ballcap, so he asked him about it. Turns out the plumber was a F/O on Dash-8's, working the plumbing gig on his days off. Said he made a lot more money as a plumber...
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#93 Post by Schimunga » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:03 pm

To Pat and BRV--If aviation is such a shitty profession why and I ask again WHY have you not tried getting into a new field that pays more?
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#94 Post by Schimunga » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:14 pm

And one other thing I would like to ask...In my ten years of being an AME I have found that fixed wing AME's bitch and complain alot more then rotary AME's. Is that true?

BRV--you don't need to respond because I know 10 years experience means nothing to you. You have said so yourself.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#95 Post by billy ray valintine » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:58 pm

[quote="Schimunga"]And one other thing I would like to ask...In my ten years of being an AME I have found that fixed wing AME's bitch and complain alot more then rotary AME's. Is that true?

BRV--you don't need to respond because I know 10 years experience means nothing to you. You have said so yourself.[/quote

i know you don't want me to respond{some how i think you do!},but i will enlighten you anyway.
back in 1997/98/99,i worked for a company that could not find fixed wing AME'S.
three rotary guys were hired and did the switch from helicopter to fixed wing {airlines}.
first of all,they are great guys,and great AME'S,but did a fair amount of bashing towards the
rotary side of aviation.
helicopter stuff didn't sound so appetizing to me,however i did not experienced it personally.
i have retired from aviation,but still do some part time stuff in the industry{small a/c}.
i also work part time for a marina near my cottage doing maintenance on customers boats.
I LOVE IT!!!.
it is sad to see the aviation industry go down hill in the last decade or two,but PJ1 said it all
when he made 31/hr in 1999 and only made 32/hr in 2008.
one dollar an hour for almost ten years work.
are you starting to see what is going on here?
if you guys think that aviation is the place to be....,then do it.
i personally don't see a bright future as far as wage and good companies to work for.
it will be ..get in...get out for the owners from here on in.
don't agree? stay tuned.


brv
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#96 Post by Schimunga » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:07 pm

well BRV here is how it worked for me. When I started out as a licensed AME I was at $160 a day. After 10 years and 2 endorsements later I was up to $350 a day. Maybe that is why I don't see aviation as such a bad job. I have seen decent wage increases that have made me stay in it for those years. Now that I have tried something else besides helicopters I find that it isn't greener on the other side. I am beginning to entertain the idea of going back to choppers.

So I call bullshit on the 10 years at one company and only receiving $1 increase in wages. I think there is more to a $1 raise over 10 years then just Air Canada being cheap. And just to make sure I will chat with a friend of mine who is a crew chief for AC and see what kind of raises he experienced in those 10 years.

Also do you honestly think that if you put two plumbers together and a few beers later they will be singing praises for the plumbing industry.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#97 Post by ourkid2000 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:01 pm

Schimunga,

AC's contract is out there for all to see on the IAMAW's website so take a look for yourself. The one they are working on now was signed back in 2002 and has the pay reductions worked in after the bankruptcy starting in 2003. That contract is still current as they voted it in for another couple years last year. I still have my IAMAW contract that was valid before the 2002 contract and it is pretty much the same numbers.

Seriously dude, they haven't seen much of a raise in 11 years. This is what Sept 11th & the bankruptcy did.......well what they blamed it on anyways.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#98 Post by c170b53 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:13 pm

Bullshit is the right as there's more to the story. The wage increase well it just hasn't maybe its a dollar or $1.50 maybe a few pennies more or less over a ten year period but there's no mention everyone lost a week's vacation nor the increase in the work week. Loss of shift diff, run up and taxi pay (yeah I know anyone can drive and blast a 47 around) overtime regardless of situation is 1.5 (second day used to be at double). (OT can be forced on you) Used to get uniforms now we have to buy them (we get a yearly allowance but you have to save up to get stuff). Out of town travel is at straight time regardless of how long you've been traveling. We pay our own BC medical.
The best measure of the situation, we used to get 20-25 (its been awhile) at Christmas time to buy dinner if you were on shift, then the cash turned into a $5 dollar voucher for Tim's bits. Last year had to be a tough one cause we got stiffed.
Yeah the airline business is great.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#99 Post by SeptRepair » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:33 am

All I can say is holy shit. I never realized it was that bad at AC.
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Re: Future AME Discouraged

#100 Post by ourkid2000 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:38 am

Yeah it's bad there.....they have outsourcing issues approaching as well with the whole Aveos/Aeroman thing. Not a nice place to be I'm sure.

Heavy maintenance in general in Canada is a nasty business and getting nastier every year. What I would like us to talk about, instead of arguing, is how did this happen?

I looked at the local school here which has a maintenance program. NSCC (http://www.nscc.ca/Admissions/Cost_And_ ... sp?ID=1194) charges around $25,000 in tuition alone. These people will come out of school with 40k debt and looking forward to working at IMP or something like that for $22 an hour. My mind is boggled by this......why would anyone spend this kind of money to make average (at best) wages??
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