172 annual
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burned out
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172 annual
I have a cessna 182 and I need an annual as per cars 625. The local amo told me it would take 20 hours to complete the annual plus snags,awds. On the internet I found an AMO that can do it in ten hours. How come one guy is 10 hours and the other 20 for the same sign out. It just not seem right. I like an safe aircraft like everyone else. What does tc think about this?
Re: 172 annual
One company is probably low-balling to get business.
The other company is probably being realistic in their labour estimates.
Odds are, the annual will cost you the same amount, but you'll be expecting it with the high quote.
(By the way, a company I worked for quoted approx. 12-15 hours for a snag-free annual on a single-engine fixed-gear aircraft that we were familiar with. If it was a new (to us) aircraft, the quote was significantly higher.)
Either way, TC doesn't care about labour hours / quotes / bills / payments. As long as the aircraft is safe and the paperwork is done, they are generally satisfied.
The other company is probably being realistic in their labour estimates.
Odds are, the annual will cost you the same amount, but you'll be expecting it with the high quote.
(By the way, a company I worked for quoted approx. 12-15 hours for a snag-free annual on a single-engine fixed-gear aircraft that we were familiar with. If it was a new (to us) aircraft, the quote was significantly higher.)
Either way, TC doesn't care about labour hours / quotes / bills / payments. As long as the aircraft is safe and the paperwork is done, they are generally satisfied.
Re: 172 annual
Shot in the dark: the 10 hour guy is not pulling the interior, or the spinner.
The 20 hour guy is pulling the interior and the spinner.
On a perfect airplane, it takes me two days to do an annual inspection. One day for the engine (firewall forward) and one day for the airframe. Call it 16 to 18 hours in total. With two guys working you can get it done in one long day if nothing goes wrong. Snags are extra time and parts and money, and there are always snags. An annual with no snags is suspicious, IMHO.
The 20 hour guy is pulling the interior and the spinner.
On a perfect airplane, it takes me two days to do an annual inspection. One day for the engine (firewall forward) and one day for the airframe. Call it 16 to 18 hours in total. With two guys working you can get it done in one long day if nothing goes wrong. Snags are extra time and parts and money, and there are always snags. An annual with no snags is suspicious, IMHO.
Re: 172 annual
Hedley, Are you an AME too?
To the OP,
CAR 625 Appendix B sets out the bare minimum annual inspection requirement and does not require much. There's you're 1 day annual.
The C172 Service manual sets out a 200 hr inspection; there's your 2-3 day annual.
You bring an airplane into Canada from the US without a Canadian inspection. You bought it with "no snags". There is your 30 day annual.
To the OP,
CAR 625 Appendix B sets out the bare minimum annual inspection requirement and does not require much. There's you're 1 day annual.
The C172 Service manual sets out a 200 hr inspection; there's your 2-3 day annual.
You bring an airplane into Canada from the US without a Canadian inspection. You bought it with "no snags". There is your 30 day annual.
Re: 172 annual
I have been an apprentice for 19 years now. I can't get the 6 months full-time employment!Hedley, Are you an AME too?
I spend more time wrenching than flying, on a wild variety of aircraft. Last time I counted, it was 18 aircraft.
You bring an airplane into Canada from the US without a Canadian inspection. You bought it with "no snags". There is your 30 day annual
A friend of mine bought a Cherokee from the USA. Hard to think of anything simpler, eh? Fixed pitch prop, fixed gear, bare bones avionics.The import took 6 months - long enough that the engine was getting damaged from not flying. I told him to pickle it.
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pistonpounder
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Re: 172 annual
I dont care what anyone says but an ame who signs out an annual in one day is not doing a very good annual.
Re: 172 annual
+1 to what PistonPounder said.
I have been doing an annual inspection on a guys Cessna 172 for the last 4 or 5 years. The first year it was almost three days including a couple of small repairs because I had a good look at everything (read: I don't trust anyone but myself). The second and third year it was done in two long (ish) days and the last two years have been two days. Not that it's relevant but the guy literally flies only 8 or 10 hours a year and so things like the wheel bearings only get done every second year. The point is I've gotten to know this airplane inside and out but it still takes two days to get the annual done. Like Hedley I do the firewall forward in one day and the rest in the second day too. There are times I want to just skip pulling the spinner or crawling into the empenage to look for corrosion that I know isn't going to be there, however I do everything every single year because that's just me and I know it's right. I would be very suspicious of anyone who claims they can get an annual done in 10 hours, the lowest amount of time I have ever billed on this particular aircraft was 17.5 hours without snags or repairs included.
My $0.02
~FOX~
I have been doing an annual inspection on a guys Cessna 172 for the last 4 or 5 years. The first year it was almost three days including a couple of small repairs because I had a good look at everything (read: I don't trust anyone but myself). The second and third year it was done in two long (ish) days and the last two years have been two days. Not that it's relevant but the guy literally flies only 8 or 10 hours a year and so things like the wheel bearings only get done every second year. The point is I've gotten to know this airplane inside and out but it still takes two days to get the annual done. Like Hedley I do the firewall forward in one day and the rest in the second day too. There are times I want to just skip pulling the spinner or crawling into the empenage to look for corrosion that I know isn't going to be there, however I do everything every single year because that's just me and I know it's right. I would be very suspicious of anyone who claims they can get an annual done in 10 hours, the lowest amount of time I have ever billed on this particular aircraft was 17.5 hours without snags or repairs included.
My $0.02
~FOX~
Hang Time Is The Best Time!
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LousyFisherman
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Re: 172 annual
We get billed 8 hours AME time plus 8 hours apprentice time for the annual on our 152. As simple a certified plane as there is. Optional equipment includes a radio 
The labour charge includes nothing other than the annual/200hr inspection. All other inspections, repairs, certifications (ELT, altimeter etc) are done separately.
The shop has been doing our inspections for 4 years and the plane is in 3-4 times a year for the other inspections or minor repairs. .
$85/hour, 10% markup on parts, and they make an effort to keep our costs down by offering used (certified) parts, and suggesting when work is not really necessary. They will also allow us to assist, further reducing the apprentice time. They probably save us 50% of the cost of the annual each year with their suggestions.
Find a good AMO/AME and do not cheap out! Based on the one time I helped I do not see how you can get a COMPLETE inspection done in 10 hours
HTH
LF
The labour charge includes nothing other than the annual/200hr inspection. All other inspections, repairs, certifications (ELT, altimeter etc) are done separately.
The shop has been doing our inspections for 4 years and the plane is in 3-4 times a year for the other inspections or minor repairs. .
$85/hour, 10% markup on parts, and they make an effort to keep our costs down by offering used (certified) parts, and suggesting when work is not really necessary. They will also allow us to assist, further reducing the apprentice time. They probably save us 50% of the cost of the annual each year with their suggestions.
Find a good AMO/AME and do not cheap out! Based on the one time I helped I do not see how you can get a COMPLETE inspection done in 10 hours
HTH
LF
Women and planes have alot in common
Both are expensive, loud, and noisy.
However, when handled properly both respond well and provide great pleasure
Both are expensive, loud, and noisy.
However, when handled properly both respond well and provide great pleasure
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iflyforpie
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Re: 172 annual
No way it could be 10 hours. I bill a minimum of 12 on most of my single engine, fixed gear planes I've seen before without including snags, but I usually take a bit longer and shave off a bit for time I inevitably waste during the day (phone rings, lunch breaks, etc). The average is about 14 for the inspection only. I also try to work efficiently: parts, tools, and paperwork laid out before hand; instead of using the terrible format of most inspection sheets, I just look at 'everything' in an area and confirm with the list later; and for the release I used a printed off fill-in-the-blank form that I can add ADs, parts, and snags to.
Lots of things I won't mess with on a plane I know. If a strut I've seen three years in a row hasn't needed any nitrogen, I'm pretty sure the fluid level is fine. No point in messing with shimmy dampers if there is no shimmy to worry about. Bearings I will do at required tire changes, which will often be because of sidewall cracking on private annuals; I don't wait for tread to disappear. A database on each aircraft tracks what I've fixed, out of phase items (mag 500 hours, prop inspections/overhauls, etc), and previous concerns.
A solid day on the engine, absolutely. First run it (AMEs should always run it even if the owner just had to make sure what is working, what is not, and how the engine is behaving). Oil change, filter inspection, leak downs, sparkplugs, heat muff, and general inspection take long enough. I add cylinder boroscope and timing to every annual since doing these two can catch a lot of potential problems on an engine that leak downs and mag drops won't catch. The spinner isn't a big deal on most aircraft if you have an electric screwgun.
For the rest of the plane, you need to pull the front seats if you are going to do a proper annual. To pull the front seats on 99% of the 100 Series Cessnas (excepting the 140, 150, 152s of course) you are going to have to pull the back seats (I love old Pipers with the flip up back seats
). A bad enough job on the newer Cessnas, an absolute biotch on the older ones where the bolts go sideways into the fittings on the wall and the floor A-nuts are u/s or non-existent (pity the poor bastard who's going to have to figure out there is a mini-nut under here..... DOH!!). Then finding the magical combination of twistology to get that sucker out and back in with the armrests and front seats in the way. I do save some time though by not pulling the firewall screws on the rudder tube panels. Just pull the front ones and tip the panel up to save yourself from trying to get those PK screws back through the upholstery and insulation to those unseen but often imagined holes and tinnerman nuts on the other side.
Add the headliner (zippers rule when they work, I abhor the 1970s plastic ones), bulkhead, tail, the zillion wing panels (I do them one at a time, again Piper rules for only putting a handful in), fuel strainer, and the gear and there's your second day easy. Then add the first run and leak check, cowls on second run, mag drops, tach check, compass swing (snicker), and at the end of two very long days you've finally wrapped up your mythical snag-free annual without an AD search or tech log update..
Lots of things I won't mess with on a plane I know. If a strut I've seen three years in a row hasn't needed any nitrogen, I'm pretty sure the fluid level is fine. No point in messing with shimmy dampers if there is no shimmy to worry about. Bearings I will do at required tire changes, which will often be because of sidewall cracking on private annuals; I don't wait for tread to disappear. A database on each aircraft tracks what I've fixed, out of phase items (mag 500 hours, prop inspections/overhauls, etc), and previous concerns.
A solid day on the engine, absolutely. First run it (AMEs should always run it even if the owner just had to make sure what is working, what is not, and how the engine is behaving). Oil change, filter inspection, leak downs, sparkplugs, heat muff, and general inspection take long enough. I add cylinder boroscope and timing to every annual since doing these two can catch a lot of potential problems on an engine that leak downs and mag drops won't catch. The spinner isn't a big deal on most aircraft if you have an electric screwgun.
For the rest of the plane, you need to pull the front seats if you are going to do a proper annual. To pull the front seats on 99% of the 100 Series Cessnas (excepting the 140, 150, 152s of course) you are going to have to pull the back seats (I love old Pipers with the flip up back seats
). A bad enough job on the newer Cessnas, an absolute biotch on the older ones where the bolts go sideways into the fittings on the wall and the floor A-nuts are u/s or non-existent (pity the poor bastard who's going to have to figure out there is a mini-nut under here..... DOH!!). Then finding the magical combination of twistology to get that sucker out and back in with the armrests and front seats in the way. I do save some time though by not pulling the firewall screws on the rudder tube panels. Just pull the front ones and tip the panel up to save yourself from trying to get those PK screws back through the upholstery and insulation to those unseen but often imagined holes and tinnerman nuts on the other side.Add the headliner (zippers rule when they work, I abhor the 1970s plastic ones), bulkhead, tail, the zillion wing panels (I do them one at a time, again Piper rules for only putting a handful in), fuel strainer, and the gear and there's your second day easy. Then add the first run and leak check, cowls on second run, mag drops, tach check, compass swing (snicker), and at the end of two very long days you've finally wrapped up your mythical snag-free annual without an AD search or tech log update..
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: 172 annual
10 hours is just a little more time than you need to inspect the engine!
Re: 172 annual
What they all said. I've been in this racket since the early seventies and still cant do a good inspection in less than 20 hours.
