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iflyforpie
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:54 pm 
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You'd see that in automotive engines for sure, but not aviation ones where we are cutting open the filters every 50 hours or looking at screens every 25. Usually the most deadly aspect of aircraft engine problems is seeing the bill.


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Grantmac
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:44 am 
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I have heard of people checking the cam health by putting a magnetic dial indicator on the rocker and observing how much lift there was. This was then referenced to the lift for that cam.
Not as good as pulling everything apart, but it is a gut check.

Oh and FYI I just had to put 4 new cylinders on a O-290D with 1540SMOH ( a LOOOONG time ago) and the cam/lifters were in great shape. The AI (in the US) thinks I can expect another 1000hrs out of that bottom end if I fly it often. I use Camguard BTW.

-Grant


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OntheNumbers
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:52 am 
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OK, thanks for that info. I also found this informative link without too much effort:

http://www.mattituck.com/articles/engcorr.htm

The owner won't allow the jug to be pulled so I'll need to talk with the AME tomorrow and decide whether to proceed. My summary of the situation is, if there's corrosion, you are on a slippery slope to a premature overhaul, but there could still be a few hundred hours or more of usable time on the engine. And in some cases the wear can reverse itself if it hadn't gotten too far advanced in the first place. Worst case, a valve could stick open or closed and that sounds pretty serious.

Thanks to all for your help.

OTN


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cgzro
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:30 pm 
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If you cant pull a jug then
personally I'd assume 100hrs till major and price accordingly.

You sound like you really want this plane but be objective otherwise next year you will have a 20k annual... which is fine if you budgeted etc for it.


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Big Pistons Forever
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:51 pm 
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I agree. If the owner won't let you pull a jug and you have seen corrosion in the cylinders then the price will have to reflect that you will be need to buy 4 new cylinders and a cam and lifters (about 12 K) plus 2 K for the re and re.


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MrWings
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:04 pm 
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Is there a legitimate reason for an owner to not want to have a jug pulled?

Can a perfectly operating engine experience problems after a jug is pulled, inspected and then reinstalled? I assume it could if it is not installed correctly.


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Big Pistons Forever
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:12 pm 
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MrWings wrote:
Is there a legitimate reason for an owner to not want to have a jug pulled?

Can a perfectly operating engine experience problems after a jug is pulled, inspected and then reinstalled? I assume it could if it is not installed correctly.


The AME who pulls the cylinder has to make a maintenance entry in the log book. So if the maintenance entry is " No 1 cylinder removed for internal engine inspection. Cam and lifter found severly pitted and spalled, cylinder reinstalled at owners request " the bell can't be unrung so the price is going to have to get adjusted as nobody is going to buy it. Far better from the owners perspective to try to get some sucker to buy the airplane as is where is. If you are going to pay full price i would suggest it is up to the owner to prove to you that the engine is not soon going to need expensive repairs.

It is totally a buyers market now so you have some real leverage.......


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Colonel Sanders
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:02 am 
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Quote:
you will be need to buy 4 new cylinders and a cam and lifters (about 12 K) plus 2 K for the re and re.


At that point, why not pay a bit more for an overhaul, which would
increase the value of the aircraft at least a little bit. This repair
would not, after a year or so.

I should mention that not all overhauls install new cylinders
and cam and lifters!!

Quote:
Can a perfectly operating engine experience problems after a jug is pulled, inspected and then reinstalled?


Sure, if the AME screws it up. Happens all the time.

Note when the jug is pulled, you may need new exhaust,
baffles, seals, etc depending upon it's condition.


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OntheNumbers
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:23 am 
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Big Pistons Forever wrote:

The AME who pulls the cylinder has to make a maintenance entry in the log book. So if the maintenance entry is " No 1 cylinder removed for internal engine inspection. Cam and lifter found severly pitted and spalled, cylinder reinstalled at owners request " the bell can't be unrung so the price is going to have to get adjusted as nobody is going to buy it. Far better from the owners perspective to try to get some sucker to buy the airplane as is where is. If you are going to pay full price i would suggest it is up to the owner to prove to you that the engine is not soon going to need expensive repairs.

It is totally a buyers market now so you have some real leverage.......


Now _that_ makes a lot of sense! Today after the AME zipped everything back up, only an innocuous entry about an oil change was entered into the logs. It hadn't occurred to me that the logs would tattle on the owner about having found corrosion.

The owner took a hard line against any further negotiation, hacked on me for indulging in "what if" scenarios because I provided two prices - that of a cylinder rehone and that of a rehone plus camshaft replacement ($10K plus re & re). They wouldn't have been what-if scenarios if we could have pulled a jug, though.

Too bad, but then again in retrospect, it was a deal that seemed too good to be true.

Thanks all, I learned something from the responses and the process.

Cheers

OTN

Edit: to clarify a sentence


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Grantmac
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:31 am 
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Location: Coming home to YYJ soon.
OTN: where are you located?

-Grant


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Colonel Sanders
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:38 am 
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Quote:
The owner took a hard line against any further negotiation


I can see why - they want to sell the aircraft to someone who is much
stupider than you, and doesn't know about internal corrosion.

Odds are they will easily find someone like that, especially if they pay
for someone to wax their aircraft. You can see anything shiny - doesn't
matter if it's old, cracked, corroded, high time, worn out.


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MrWings
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:38 pm 
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Great thread and responses guys.


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SeptRepair
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:32 pm 
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I agree, good insightful thread. I have a somewhat similar story going on. I have maintained a Lycoming powered Cessna for the last 5- 6 yrs. The owner is ignorant to the regulations. and down right confrontational when I try and educate him on some of his obligations. ( for example having insurance).The aircraft has flow about 10 hrs in five years with only 2hrs in the last 3. The last time I did an annual was 3 years ago. The aircraft just sits out of annual. He has now decided to sell the aircraft. He refused to have the engine inhibited after i repeatedly advised him such a thing would be prudent with it not flying much. He is a grown man, and I will not beg him to use common sense. He gets calls on the aircraft with low ball offers ( actually they are realistic offers, but he knows better :roll: ). The biggest clincher is regardless of an annual or a ferry permit, I will not do such with out at least pulling one jug. I have advised him once that happens a huge can of worms will be opened and I am obligated to put any and all defects in the Log. Ball is in his court and I said since you have no intentions of flying it and will not budge on your price, and as well do not want to put any money on checking the cam/lifters you might as well save your money and leave it out of annual and pray some sucker comes along and buys it.


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Colonel Sanders
 Post subject: Re: 450 smoh in 15 years
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:54 am 
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That engine needs an overhaul. Too bad he couldn't bother
to spend a few bucks to pickle it with inhibiting oil and
dessicant spark plugs.


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