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christianhgross
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:23 pm 
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@iflyforpie

Want to know why I got out of the shop? Because of comments like what you made...

"There is the problem right there and probably why no AME would be willing to let you work on your aircraft. You have a air of superiority and a sense of entitlement. Yes, academically you might have more knowledge than an AME, but not in regards to aircraft and certainly not in the ins and outs of how to do things on planes. Lots of stuff in other mechanical trades does not 'fly' so to speak on aircraft. "

I never once said I knew more than an AME. I never once said I would try to overrule. I said I would like to work with an AME. I said I would gladly do the grunt work. @CID said it best and that was what I expected.

But back to the point of the shop. I have worked in Canadian shops, and have worked in German shops. And while I don't want to stereo typify all Canadian shops I completely dislike that attitude. I know about that attitude all too well.

For example you wrote:

"No, I'm biling it because I can and I will."

That is BULLSHIT! It is why I dislike some shops and why I am very very concerned about getting ripped off at a shop.

You also said...

"Did you know that it costs nearly the same amount of money for a car manufacturer to produce a $20,000 compact car vs a $50,000 SUV?"

I learned part of my shop work at a company called Magna! Ever heard of them? World's biggest car parts maker. That is where I did most of my shop work. And their belief is since they are a Germanic shop that you need to learn the shop floor before you do engineering work. So I know for a fact what it costs to build a car (from the shop floor to the engineer plans). The reality of which you so speak is actually incorrect. The two different cars have different price models.

Let me say that a cheaper car has cheaper parts. It starts with the foam used to make the seats. For example a compact car will have a seat made from a single piece of foam, with no lips. Whereas an SUV will have multi-layer foam seats with various pockets. A cheap car will use the bare minimum sheet metal, whereas an SUV will have thicker sheet metal that will have treatment within the car hollow room to ensure little corrosion.

BTW I never said once that AME's are getting rich. On the contrary I actually think AME's are getting the short end of the stick, but there is a reality here. The reality is that there is price competition and the question becomes as an AME where would I want to earn my money? Google killed my book authoring business, but hey I can cry and complain or I can adapt... Answer, become a consultant and inspector. Don't do the grunt work because that does not pay anymore. As I was reading AirCanada moved its service department to Costa Rica because of the costs... Its a reality...

If I had my AME license here is how I would do things...

1) Buy a hanger with a decent runway.
2) Create repair boxes which have a full tool set. These repair boxes with tools are accounted and rented for by the day.
3) Offer courses in repairing and maintaining your own plane.
4) Offer mailing services where people can order and get delivered parts through your office.
5) Offer my services on a per hourly fee (higher than the usual) to inspect and guide the work.

The advantage of this approach is that people get to tweak their plane and learn about it. I am also willing to bet that the per hourly cost of this approach will probably be about the same as having a mechanic do it. BUT the difference is that the pilot who does this work will get a sense fulfillment, and satisfaction that they did something with their hands and their intelligence.

In business and life I learned one thing, the way to make money is to have money work for you. If you are a mechanic or a engineer you are only one person with one income. BUT if you can create a business where your service is used to motivate others then you make money...


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040hurts
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:14 pm 
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"If I had my AME license here is how I would do things..."

1) Buy a hanger with a decent runway.
2) Create repair boxes which have a full tool set. These repair boxes with tools are accounted and rented for by the day.
3) Offer courses in repairing and maintaining your own plane.
4) Offer mailing services where people can order and get delivered parts through your office.
5) Offer my services on a per hourly fee (higher than the usual) to inspect and guide the work.



Stuation:

Aircraft leaves your shop after the pilot flew in and changed his own oil.
30 min later the single engine quits, and the aircraft crashes into a house. killing the pilot and the innocents in the home.

Next Day:
TSB and the RCMP come to your shop and ask you the following - what was the last work preformed, by whome and where is the work order.

Month Later:
Accident report is issued stating that the owner of the aircraft changed the oil in the aircraft and did not preform a satisfactory leak check, otherwise he would have noted that the oil cooler drain plug was not poperly secured and thus all the oil was expelled, starving the engine and causing a failure. AME released the aircraft without inspecting the work since he felt the owner was capable.

Next 3 years of you life:
AME licence revoked
Spend all your savings and time dealing with the lawsuits, trying to explain why your not at fault

I laugh everytime I hear "the last annual only cost me a 1000 dollars" when I hand out a expensive annual bill. I dont care what type of aircraft you have they all must be inspected properly and by someone who knows what they are looking for.

Work on your own aircraft if you like, you may never have a problem. But I know of one owner who did some "maintenance" on his own aircraft and when it crashed it affected alot of people including myself... Lawyers dont care if your a nice guy and you were trying to do right. they are out for blood and they will pin it on anyone, excempt the person truly at fault... the owner who tried to save 1000 dollars


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Popol
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:46 pm 
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Right now you seem to be attacking everyone that tell you that you can't be an AME by taking shortcut...

Cars are there for a reason... So that everyone can fly safe and not be too worry about aircraft falling off the sky. I didn't wrote them and no one on this forum did.

And by the way the way you would operate if you were an AME exist... It's called a school and it's a safe learning environnement.

Now you have a few solutions if you want to do your maintenance on your own aircraft

- go to school (or online course) then fill your logbook be an apprentice for a while then write your exam and get an M license.
-Owner maintenance, Amateur built aircraft
-Find an ame that will let you work on your a/c while supervising you

Also I would suggest you to read Bill Fraser book's: CARS for the AME... 40$ well spent if you want to do maintenance (after all... all AME must pass a CARS exam)


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RenegadeAV8R
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:48 pm 
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christianhgross wrote:
If I had my AME license here is how I would do things...

1) Buy a hanger with a decent runway.
2) Create repair boxes which have a full tool set. These repair boxes with tools are accounted and rented for by the day.
3) Offer courses in repairing and maintaining your own plane.
4) Offer mailing services where people can order and get delivered parts through your office.
5) Offer my services on a per hourly fee (higher than the usual) to inspect and guide the work.


christianhgross wrote:
The advantage of this approach is that people get to tweak their plane and learn about it. I am also willing to bet that the per hourly cost of this approach will probably be about the same as having a mechanic do it. BUT the difference is that the pilot who does this work will get a sense fulfillment, and satisfaction that they did something with their hands and their intelligence.


Somebody will correct me if I am wrong, but I really think that a licenced AME has to supervise the work in order to sign the maintenance release.

You made a comparaison to engineers in your country. I am a member of one of the Canadian engineers association, and as an engineer, I have to directly supervise the technicians/engineers in order to approve the drawings. Directly supervising mean being there; not being a phone call away and not simply inspecting after the work is done.

I would not be surprised that your proposed business model would be illegal in Canada.

christianhgross wrote:
The advantage of this approach is that people get to tweak their plane and learn about it. I am also willing to bet that the per hourly cost of this approach will probably be about the same as having a mechanic do it. BUT the difference is that the pilot who does this work will get a sense fulfillment, and satisfaction that they did something with their hands and their intelligence.


In Canada, we have the "Amateur Build" category that exist for people who want "to tweak their plane and learn about it" and "get a sense fulfillment, and satisfaction that they did something with their hands and their intelligence".

For certified aircraft, Transport Canada has a very specific list of tasks that the aircraft's owner can perform himself - it is called Elementary Maintenance.

christianhgross wrote:
I have worked in Canadian shops, and have worked in German shops. And while I don't want to stereo typify all Canadian shops I completely dislike that attitude. I know about that attitude all too well.


:roll:


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CID
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Just as I predicted (to myself anyway) this discussion has been overtaken by the classic AME self pity and lack of self esteem. Just because someone is an engineer and isn't an expert aircraft maintainer doesn't me he can't become one. And I saw absolutely no evidence of the original poster claiming any sort of superiority. And how could he? Mechanical engineering and aircraft maintenance are completely different fields. We may as well be comparing doctors and lawyers.

Of course in the case of a mechanical engineer, there is actually some knowledge that is transferable to maintenance of aircraft.

Telling a mechanical engineer that he can't fix his airplane is like telling an AME that he can't possibly design a tool. Or fix his car. Or play a musical instrument. That's just silliness. The guy was just asking questions, not looking for a fight from some whiners.


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Tiredoldcoot
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:44 am 
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CID:

Surprisingly, I find myself agreeing , partially, with some of your statements. And others, as is usually the cae, I'm scratching my head.

I do, to a point agree that there are SOME things that can be transfered from a Mechanical ENgneering degree to Aircraft maintenance/mechanics, at least in theory. HAving said that, a lot of things can't be. Which is common in a lot of trades / degrees.

If you recall, back in the late 70's , early 80's we had a CT114 ( Tutor( have it's tail section depart while an airshow was being conducted over the water on Toronto. A pilot died in that accident if I recall correctly!

Anyways, long storey short, AETE ( Aerospace Engineering and Tes Establishment) was tasked with carrying out structural fatique testing on that aircraft model. Since I had all the civikian AME license, including strutures ( I was in the military at that time) I was tasked as the Lead project Technician for mechanical and sheet metal/structural activites. We had THREE degreed mil officiers assigned to that project. TWO with mechanical degrees, the Lead Engineer had a PhD as well as a Masters in Electrinics Engineering.

Basically the project involed removing the front right seat, and installing strain gauges all over the frickin aircraft, along with all the associated wiring, to run up to the computers now placed in the front right seat.

While looking over the schemetics, I noted a very distrubing modification. The LEAD engineer had included an additional hole to be made toroute the wiring from the after section of the aircraft TO the computers in the front seat. My concern was, the hole was to be made in the carry through spar. During a meeting, I noted the proposed hole and brought it to the attention of the Lead Engineer. I was told to go ahead and do it! AFTER showing his the load limits as designed by the aircraft designer, there was blow uo and I was ORDERED to put the hole through the spar. Of course I fefused and evetually we ended up with another LEad Ebgineer.
My point? A degree simply means a person can study to the point of understanding thetheory. ( Not rtying to belittle anybody with that statement!) A degree does NOT mean a person is smarter then anybody else, nor that they actually know HOW to do something! It simply means that a person has the ability to study and retain the THEORY of how something SHOULD work. I know I have two degrees and I'm headed back to the U of C this fall.

I do believe that the point of some of the posts here, is that, in essence, a degree doesn't qualify you as a licensed mechanic of any typpe, nor does it absolve one of the liability of the work accomplished.

So, while I understand the Dude's goal, I also understand the position of many of the AME's who posted here. Whiners? I don't think so!

And in closing, there's always the guy from Nova Scotia, a licensed auto mechanic and former Service Shop manager for a large Canadian Tire dealership, who decided he wanted to be an AME. He was apprentuicing under me, in a fairly large AMO doing 737 C checks. He couldn't get the trunnion pin outa the NLG. So he headed over to the Facility Manger's shop and dragged out the Oxi torches, so he coul heat it up and cut it out!! The aircraft had OPEN fuel cells at the time!! My poiunt, both the individual's that I mentioned BOTH had the theoty aspects of mechanics down! Both had the desire, but BOTH lacked the liability for theri actions!!

So stating that , or ( and I may be wrong, if so I apologize) implying that a degree or ( in my inc ident) having an auto mechanics license does not necessarily meant that any person has transferable skills. Two completely different things!

The other point to consider is, there has been a long history of owners who want to do their own maintenace. As well as owners sitting in their Cadillac escalades, who pay auto mechanics 80.00 an hour to work on them, but whine at AME who charge 40 bucks an hour to work on theri aircraft! AND I haven't heard of ANY garage or professionakl mechanicw who will let an auto oner use their tools and THEIR vehicle mechanics license to carry out a vehicle safety innsepction. Personally, I can't see what any AME in his/her right mind would allow an owner to do his own maintenance ( I'm using "allow" quite freely) and but the AME's license adn his livlyhood on the line, to save an owner a 150.00 bucks!! NOT to mention the lifetime liability??

I mean really, do you not see that??

NO PERSONAL ATTACK intended nor implied to anybody who posted here!!


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GyvAir
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:28 pm 
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Christian

I fully understand your desire to work on your own airplane. I’m a compulsive DIYer myself. I make my living as an AME maintaining aircraft, but generally speaking, if my house, car, truck, computer, bicycle, fence, etc requires maintenance or repair I rarely call in a contractor/tech/mechanic.

The difference between these activities and what you’re proposing, besides the usual “When you screw up fixing an airplane, people die” line, is that I rarely feel the need or desire for professional supervision, help or legal sign off for my extracurricular activities.
When I do feel the need, for example with an extensive electrical installation, I’m not working in the electricians shop or having him supervise me along the way. He’s coming in once, at the pre-close stage, while all the work I’ve performed is still fully exposed when he does his inspection/sign off.

When I’m doing a one-time repair to my house, car, etc. I go into it with the realization that chances are, I won’t actually do it for less cost to myself in money/time than it would if I hired the right professional to do the job. I do it because I enjoy the satisfaction of learning something new and seeing to it that it gets done correctly and to my satisfaction. If I had to pay someone a premium on top of my time for quality assurance, it would quickly become prohibitively expensive.

Tradespersons in any field who have time or patience to run a shop of any kind with owner’s assistance are very few and far between. I know of two AMEs running shops catering to private aircraft owners who have tried essentially what you are proposing with supervised owner maintenance. One dropped the idea after less than a year because the hassles and that he couldn’t make money at it. The other has reduced that angle of his business to one existing customer (who incidentally held an AME licence in the past) because… you guessed it… he can’t make any money at it.
Having customers working around the shop is a huge distraction. It’s like having fresh apprentices around all the time who never reach that magical threshold of being profitable employees. Sure, the odd one is pretty sharp and picks things up fast, requiring minimal supervision. You may be that one. Most fresh apprentices are borderline dangerous though.
Also, customers are there for one or both of two reasons: recreation or to save money. The AME is there to feed his family and pay the mortgage. The two perspectives tend not to mix harmoniously.

Incidentally, I’ve seen a number of auto repair shops similar to the German model you referred to start up and quickly disappear, simply due to economics. A professional can fix your car in far less time than most owners can. Therefore, he can make far more efficient use of the space and equipment required and ultimately perform the work at less cost than an owner would incur due to the owner having to rent the space for the longer time he/she would require, plus paying for any assistance needed.

As others have previously stated, your best options for what you wish to do is to go with an aircraft with an owner maintenance C of A or an amateur built aircraft. I’m sure finding an AME willing to assist you in maintaining your aircraft under those circumstances will be much easier than finding an AME who would be willing to have you assist him in maintaining your aircraft under a standard C of A.
(I did see you mention that you’re looking at a twin.. even harder to get an AME to play ball with you as the plane gets more complex)

Anyways… back to the garage now, to spend $150 worth of time and parts to fix my $250 lawnmower so I can continue to spend another $100 worth of time and gas per month x 5 cutting my grass so that I can save the $350 total it would have cost me to get a professional to just come in and cut it for me for the whole season.


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SeptRepair
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Well said Gvyair.


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dashx
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:19 am 
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Christian:

You need to tell us why you wouldn't be able to do you own maintenance under the Swiss reg. Are the regs there more restrictive (like the car regs you mentioned)?

And you did not mention how expensive (per hour) the shops are in Switzerland. And why you feel you are getting "ripped" off even before you purchased an airplane.

If you choose to take the remote learning course (which anyone can take) - http://www.icslearn.ca/aircraft/index.html - there will be a time period to complete the course (they say 6 months to one year but I am sure you will shorten that down.......)

After you finish the course it will take 4 years of full time employment (40 hours per week) before you will be granted the privilege to apply for a licence. And not before you fulfil Transport Canada requirements with a AME logbook and write the mandatory 4 exams.

Getting an A&P (US) licence has its issues. You should contact the FAA to discuss your options (but only 3 exams in this case)

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/

You might think highly of yourself as an engineer (because of your school and your shop experience) but you will still have to walk a mile in our shoes (so to speak) before you get an AME licence.

You didn't get the iron ring just because you went to university and got an engineering degree. Did you? The system that grants you the PEng is just like the system that will give you the M1 M2 or A&P lic.

And you don't have to tell us about Magna. And Frank Stronach is Austrian. And got his start here in Canada. Before he took his act back to Austria (so i would say you did not work in Germanic shops but Austrian shops with Austrian ethics........mixed (perhaps) with Canadian morals.....)




Here is some inspirational music (for the common man).............Enjoy.

While you drive your 20000 dollar SUV.


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:56 am 
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Quote:
Mechanical engineering and aircraft maintenance are completely different fields


Really? The Mech Eng designs the aircraft, and the AME ensures that the aircraft is kept in the condition that Mech Eng specifies via a series of inspections that the Mech Eng determined. That's "completely different"?

It seems to be axiomatic amongst AMEs here that every Mech Eng in the world, although he may be smart enough to design an aircraft, is simply too f__king stupid to ever figure out how to pick up a #2 philips :roll:

A Mech Eng who has spent some time in a machine shop is a very knowledgeable person indeed, class anger aside.

Here's an engineer that you can sneer at, as being ignorant and incompetent compared to you:

http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/pro ... ounkin.htm

Quote:
Mr. Younkin holds numerous autopilot patents ... his creation of the air racing replicas, the Travelair Mystery Ship, and Mr. Mulligan, as well as the super Stearman "Goliath", the Mystery Pacer, and more recently the Mullicoupes. He is also known for his G Model Staggerwing production line which saw three D models converted to G Models and then upgraded with a number of engineering improvements. Finally, he is also known by some for his activity in the art of forming compound aluminum aircraft parts.


Yeah, that engineer is a real limp dick compared to you AME studs.

And I'm sure you all fly an airplane better than his son Bobby Younkin, and his grandson Matt Younkin:


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Pavese
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:01 pm 
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christianhgross, you have a PM. Well, you have will when the system eventually sends it.........been a few hours so far.

Interesting post Colonel.

D 8)


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azimuthaviation
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:48 am 
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I'm calling BS on the colonel's post. AME and PEng use totally different skill sets, not to say an engineer can't do a good ame job, but being an engineer does not automatically make one a good ame. That's like saying any doctor could be an engineer.

By the colonel's logic if you want a sturdy porch built, hire a civil engineer. He will be able to calculate the load bearing capability, the exact placement of the supporting posts, figure out the slopes and angles to cut the wood. But I would rather hire a carpenter, you can't book learn craftsmanship and workmanship.


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azimuthaviation
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:54 am 
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And as you have often mentioned, your beloved Pitts was designed by someone who never went to school, as are many other aircraft that require an ame signature. Does that mean every single engineer can design an aircraft better than the Pitts special?


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:46 am 
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Quote:
being an engineer does not automatically make one a good ame


I didn't say that. I said:

Quote:
It seems to be axiomatic amongst AMEs here that every Mech Eng in the world, although he may be smart enough to design an aircraft, is simply too f__king stupid to ever figure out how to pick up a #2 philips.

A Mech Eng who has spent some time in a machine shop is a very knowledgeable person indeed, class anger aside.


And maybe you think that Jim Younkin, because he is a highly skilled and talented engineer, must therefore be a total loser on the floor, but the airplanes he has built suggest otherwise. They are works of art. I doubt that 90% of the AME's here could form an aluminum fairing as well as he can.


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Tiredoldcoot
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:30 am 
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Col:

Based upon your logic, then EVERY pilot with a multi license can jump right into the left seat and fly a 747. After all they have a multi license, probably a commercial license, so it's NOT like they weren't trained to fly! OR anybody with a medical degree can perfom heart surgery. They all have medical degrees and they did study the heart functions.

One of the most senior DARS in Canada ( or was years back when I was working the racket) designed more repairs then anybody else in Canada! he could tell ya the bend radius for damned near ever thickness of 2024 T3 alumimium in the world. Ryhme of bend angles to the degree, tell ya the size and picth of the rivets , the shear and bearing strenght of the repair! BUT he couldn't identify one rivet from the next in a rivet tray, couldn't cut a piece if aluminum straight with a shear, nor could it bend it with a brake. And he couldn't buck a rivet if he had to, to eat. ANd he couldn't install nor release his own APPROVED repair! So his Engineering degree was of little use in actually REPAIRINg OR MAINTAINING an aircraft.

I'm still trying to figure out why you referenced the Yonkins flying abilities! Big deal. You fly, I fly, everybody flys! So the Old Man designed a couple of aircraft. Big deal! So did Rudy Enstrom. He didn't have a degree either! He was just a greasy paw A & P dude! What's the point??


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Quote:
What's the point??


If it is necessary for your self-worth, to delude yourself by claiming that by definition anyone with an education past grade 12 must always have lousy hands, well, sure, why not :roll:


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Tiredoldcoot
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:52 am 
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@ Col:

Huh?? really? I have an education WELL beyond Grade 12. Two degrees as a matter of fact, my hands are quite good at both fixing and flying?

If I base my opinion on your expressions on this forum, so are yours I assume. Did you get your license yet?

And you have yet to qualify your reference to flying? Just what is your point? I don't get it! And I'm certainly NOt deluding myself, I'm simply asking a question. Pure and simple. Big guy!


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