choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

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CentCollStud1234
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choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#1 Post by CentCollStud1234 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:08 am

My goal is to get into M2 aircraft. After doing some research, having the M2 license alone doesn't get you anywhere without any type endorsements. Type endorsement courses are expensive and employers do not want to pay for those unless they feel very confidence about the employee.

Is it better to first aim for M1 and get an ACA? Then aim for M2 once I aced the M1? [Got to learn to walk first before going for a run, right?]
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GyvAir
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Re: choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#2 Post by GyvAir » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:43 am

If you want to work on M2 aircraft, try to get an apprentice job in an M2 shop. If you want to work on M1 aircraft, aim for an M1 shop. Either way, if an employer lacks confidence in an AME, ACA isn't going to be granted. If they do have confidence and they feel you're a good bet to stick around, courses will follow, with or without the M1 background.
As far as walking before you run, it's all nuts, bolts and electrons, no matter the category. Someone will be there to keep you in the right lane and see you don't out pace yourself.
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fixnfly
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Re: choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#3 Post by fixnfly » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:42 am

Yea I don't think an M1 license will help you get further with an M2 license and job. If you want to work on M2 aircraft you should look at getting into heavy maintenance AMOs. I have both and find that M1 aircraft are far simpler than M2 where the aircraft in that category have far more complicated systems. If you get your M1 first then go for an M2 license then you are pretty much apprenticing all over again IMO. As GyvAir said, Endorsement courses will be given to you if you are deemed a competent and capable employee that will likely stick around (they'll probably force you to sign a bond). PM me if you have more questions.
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Re: choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#4 Post by acidgambit » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:26 am

My opinion is to figure out if you're more interested in working on the medium/big transport category planes or the little ones. Once you made your mind up, then aim for that. Try not to change your mind half way through or else you're basically starting all over again. Don't put M1 and M2 tasks in one single logbook. You are basically screwing yourself over. when it comes time to submit your book. Unless you're working on an airplane that is considered M1 and M2 like the Beechcraft 1900 then that is a different story.

I'll give you some examples:
Example (1)---
I used to work with this person in an airline and we were both fresh out of school. After about 3 years, he decided that he was bitter with the company and left (he got really involved with the politics of the company). I stuck with the airline cause I didn't really care (Minded my own business). It was a decent paying job and good benefits as an apprentice. We were making 25 a hour as an apprentice. Many places out there wasn't paying that much. Anyways, he took a paycut to go to this new company that operated King Air/Cessna/Piper Navajo. Lets just say, it's been a few years now and he is still unlicensed. I got my M2 license a couple months after he left. Wage went up and was on an endorsement course not long after.

Example (2)---
I eventually left the airline and went on to try out some new stuff. I got to work for this company that operated both M1 and M2 aircraft. They had a plane (Beechcraft 1900C/D) that was considered both a M1 and M2 type plane. So you can fill out 2 logbooks at once whenever you finish a task. All the guys working there had their M1/M2 licenses.


If you're going for your M2 license, look for work in airlines or big overhaul shops.
Airlines/Regional/Charter/Cargo: Air Canada, Westjet, Jazz Air, First Air, Canadian North Airlines, Air Transat, Cargojet, Central Mountain Air, North Cariboo, Sunwing, Canjet, Westwind Aviation, Transwest, Calm Air, Perimeter Airways......I can only think of these.

Overhaul shops: I think the biggest ones right now are Kelowna Flightcraft and Premier Aviation. Premier is desperate for people in their Windsor facility, so maybe look into that.

In the companies I mentioned above, some of them operate M1 and M2 planes, so you'll be able to work on both of your licenses if you get in with them.

Good luck!

Remember to write down the dates and tasks you did everyday in a notebook. You will thank yourself later.

I agree with GyvAir. You'll get your endorsement course if you are deemed competent, hard working, and don't do big screw ups.
The airline I am working at now gave an apprentice a Boeing course after 2 years in the company.
Another person only have his M1 license and he was given a Boeing course right after probation.
None of the guys have to sign any contracts. So that was nice.
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Re: choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#5 Post by david_351 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:38 am

I find you learn more with an M1 then an M2, I got my M1 first. I find that working on King Airs, Twin Otters etc will teach you a lot more then bigger stuff. There is more troubleshooting in the M1 world. My employer, who operates both M1 and M2 aircraft says that you can usually make a good M2 mechanic out of an M1 guy, but you can't always make a good M1 guy out of an M2 guy.

Furthermore all/most employers do pay for the endorsement courses when you get your M2. They need people tom sign there logbooks, anyone can work on the plane. As an apprentice just concentrate on getting into the industry, working hard and building upmcontacts/references.
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Re: choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#6 Post by YYCAME » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:05 am

I'll second what david just wrote, you really tend to learn much more general skills in a smaller place and ideally that has crossover aircraft that count toward M1 and M2 for the logbook. Not to say that you can't learn all the same stuff in a bigger M2 environment but you have to really take the initiative to do so because it is easy to just let avionics or sheet metal do stuff that you would otherwise learn about in an M1 environment.
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Re: choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#7 Post by iflyforpie » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:59 am

If you want an M1 license, you have to do it on M1 aircraft and if you want an M2 license you have to do it on M2 aircraft. If you want both licenses, you'll have to do some applicable tasks twice.... unless you can find an aircraft that is both M1 and M2.

I found that M2 experience was much better going into M1 than vice versa. Mind you, I worked in a non-union overhaul shop so I got a huge range of experience (no pigeon holing tasks like you see in airlines) and my M1 experience was all on light piston aircraft which was a complete gong show only mitigated by the extreme simplicity of the aircraft. It was M2 experience I drew on later to work on M1 turbine aircraft like the Conquest and Skyvan.....
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Re: choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#8 Post by robertw » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:46 pm

My experience with TCCA was that they would let you could count experience from an M1 or M2 category aircraft towards an M1 license. Once you the task was counted as credit towards an M1, it was no longer eligible to be counted as credit toward an M2 license even if it was an M2 aircraft task. The best advice is to keep 2 separate logbooks one for M1 and one for M2, but a task you completed on one aircraft can not appear in both books.
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Re: choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#9 Post by brownbear » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:06 am

Hopefully at the next licence re-model whenever that might be the M1 and M2 cat is dropped. It should just be M. Like E and S.

Let the employer decide with courses and experience to allow them to sign it out.

It is true M1 is a little more used to thinking for themselves. The manuals are not as in-depth with job instruction cards etc. Big aircraft are built to be maintained anywhere in the world with less English comprehension work forces than Canada. Parts replacements for dummies.

M1 you might get a MM that says install and rig per general tension values etc.

M1 and M2 already also sign out any size of helicopter too. It's time for them to drop the category. At least previous to the year 2000 when the licence model had some actual break down to keep experience in areas. Even in M1 world there is a huge difference between working on Beavers and Cessna's then going to work on King Air's or Turbine Helicopters.
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Re: choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#10 Post by casey » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:20 pm

Not to burst your bubble.But when you graduate If you get a job IE M1 M2 take it and start from there.And i agree with Brown Bear the system needs to be changed it makes zero sence that i guy with M2 lets say starts on small Dash-100 type cannot sign a tire change on a King Air series are a DHC series under 12 500 should be reciprical because according to TC you should be using the appropriate MM for any work completed and it should go the other way also within reason because if you went after TC THE answer would be was the appropriate MM IPC CCM followed
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Re: choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#11 Post by casey » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:20 pm

Not to burst your bubble.But when you graduate If you get a job IE M1 M2 take it and start from there.And i agree with Brown Bear the system needs to be changed it makes zero sence that i guy with M2 lets say starts on small Dash-100 type cannot sign a tire change on a King Air series are a DHC series under 12 500 should be reciprical because according to TC you should be using the appropriate MM for any work completed and it should go the other way also within reason because if you went after TC THE answer would be was the appropriate MM IPC CCM followed
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Re: choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#12 Post by GyvAir » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:43 pm

Lots of good points made in the above postings.
I still say aim for the type of work you think you want to do.
david_351 wrote: I find that working on King Airs, Twin Otters etc will teach you a lot more then bigger stuff. There is more troubleshooting in the M1 world.
I never learned more, in less time, than working on old-ish, hard-flying King Air, Metro, Twin Otter category aircraft. Immerse yourself in a bunch of these and you will quickly learn a lot of skills that transfer up or down in aircraft size, not to mention filling up your logbook with genuine tasks completed.
acidgambit wrote:Anyways, he took a paycut to go to this new company that operated King Air/Cessna/Piper Navajo. Lets just say, it's been a few years now and he is still unlicensed. I got my M2 license a couple months after he left. Wage went up and was on an endorsement course not long after.
Whatever you decide, try to stay your course until you get something under your belt. Jump around too much and you risk ending up getting nowhere.
robertw wrote:My experience with TCCA was that they would let you could count experience from an M1 or M2 category aircraft towards an M1 license. Once you the task was counted as credit towards an M1, it was no longer eligible to be counted as credit toward an M2 license even if it was an M2 aircraft task. The best advice is to keep 2 separate logbooks one for M1 and one for M2, but a task you completed on one aircraft can not appear in both books.
Depending on the TC office/inspector, you may find that your time towards your first rating - not just the tasks - won't be fully counted towards issuance of another rating. See CH 566 Appendix A. Be prepared to work another year specifically on aircraft covered under the new rating sought.

And as per what Casey says.. don't be too picky. Any job working on airplanes, be it 150s or 777s, is going to beat slinging coffee any day!
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CentCollStud1234
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Re: choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#13 Post by CentCollStud1234 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:05 pm

Thank you very much. So much useful information here.
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Re: choosing between M1 and M2?? for new beginner

#14 Post by Badfarmer » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:24 pm

I just want to add, seeing as no one really stated the obvious; M1 is essentially for private small (under 5000kg) aircraft, M2 is more commercial aircraft. And in any commercial environment, your licence is a way to get your foot in the door where the AMO will issue you ACA privileges. It will still take the same time (hours) to meet the tasks requirements. And that will be where you find a job.
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