Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

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rookiepilot
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by rookiepilot » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:07 am

L39Guy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:16 am

But please, don't take my word for it as I am just a line pilot in a major airline.
I'm a disinterested bystander, but above you say you do hiring for your engineering practice. Also a line pilot?
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:28 am

I am a Boeing 787 Captain (you can probably guess which airline) that also has an engineering practice involved with advanced satellite-based navigation applications.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by jschnurr » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:53 am

L39Guy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:16 am
One of the things I really don't like on these forums is the name calling. Rather juvenile.

And no, I am not a shill for Seneca or any of the other flying colleges. I happen to fly with a lot of first rate pilots who happen to come from some very good training organizations (the military, Seneca, Mount Royal, etc). 99% of them are top drawer, the remaining 1% wankers but you'll get that in any group of individuals.
Your credibility, sir, is now less than the 737 Max.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by ant_321 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:43 am

L39Guy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:16 am
Napoleon So Low wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:50 pm
Spoken like a true shill. Your posts read like commercials for Seneca.
One of the things I really don't like on these forums is the name calling. Rather juvenile.

And no, I am not a shill for Seneca or any of the other flying colleges. I happen to fly with a lot of first rate pilots who happen to come from some very good training organizations (the military, Seneca, Mount Royal, etc). 99% of them are top drawer, the remaining 1% wankers but you'll get that in any group of individuals.

What has always impressed me is the knowledge and professionalism of these pilots - this is not to detract from others that don't come from any one of these formal, flying training schools but my experience has been that virtually to the man (and woman), you are dealing with a highly competent aviator. Like any skill, competence comes from learning the basics early and properly then applying then thereafter. That is what the military or an integrated training organization like Seneca, Mount Royal provides. For those that do not do an integrated training program but instead get their flying training piecemeal, a private certificate here, the multi-engine there, etc they do not get an integrated training and that is what the 1 year Seneca program provides, a mechanism to fill in the gaps that a piecemeal training program does include.

But please, don't take my word for it as I am just a line pilot in a major airline. Ask the employers or better yet go to their websites to see what they are looking for as I have done and you will notice that they seek pilots with military or aviation college credentials. For those that lust over working in the US; if you want a major airline job you need an education, normally a full college degree so Canada is not unique in demanding post secondary training.

The keen reader might notice that I am speaking (or writing) past the naysayers and I do that intentionally. My target audience are those that are looking for some free advice if they are trying to decide how to go about checking the boxes to get an airline gig. The hiring desires of the airlines are all on their websites and most of them include the aviation college degree or diploma. For those without one but believe they should get one to become more marketable to an airline but already have a commercial pilot license and a post secondary education, the 8 month Seneca program ticks that box, in addition to providing valuable training.
You are spreading false information. An 8 month diploma won’t tick any boxes. Every airline job I have applied for in the past that cared about post secondary asks if you have a college diploma or degree. In order to get into this program you need a post secondary education so you would already tick that box. Airlines typically don’t care what your education is in. Bachelor in tiddlywinks? Perfect, welcome aboard.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:52 am

jschnurr wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:53 am
L39Guy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:16 am
One of the things I really don't like on these forums is the name calling. Rather juvenile.

And no, I am not a shill for Seneca or any of the other flying colleges. I happen to fly with a lot of first rate pilots who happen to come from some very good training organizations (the military, Seneca, Mount Royal, etc). 99% of them are top drawer, the remaining 1% wankers but you'll get that in any group of individuals.
Your credibility, sir, is now less than the 737 Max.
And you're one of the 1 per cent. You just proved my point, thanks.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by jt8d » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:44 pm

Glad you learned how to spell "Seneca" L39.. kind of alarming that you can't proof-read the title to the thread you created.. that says a LOT

Below are the copy and paste AC requirements...
...

Pilot applications far exceed job vacancies, so preference is given to candidates with qualifications beyond the basic requirements. Examples of desirable additional qualifications include, but are not limited to:

-Graduates of a three or four year diploma/degree program from a college or university
-Aviation College degree or diploma
-Commercial or military flight experience
-Jet and/or glass cockpit experience

So it looks like if you already have a 3 or 4 year degree /diploma.. you are golden! So why are you pitching this silly 8 month SEENCA course to degree holders?! They've already ticked off that box! There's no box for 8 month airline ops course lol.. you sure you aren't working for Seenca?
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:10 pm

You are here to provide free advice, and you have ten posts. Admirable altruism. :prayer:
\\

Not to mention his smug self serving attitude.

As to pilot decision making, judging from his posts here I have decided I would not want to be crewed with him...period.....hows that for PDM? :mrgreen:
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by B208 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:00 pm

L39Guy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:28 am
I am a Boeing 787 Captain (you can probably guess which airline) that also has an engineering practice involved with advanced satellite-based navigation applications.
Is that you DP?
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:19 pm

jt8d wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:44 pm
Glad you learned how to spell "Seneca" L39.. kind of alarming that you can't proof-read the title to the thread you created.. that says a LOT

Below are the copy and paste AC requirements...
...

Pilot applications far exceed job vacancies, so preference is given to candidates with qualifications beyond the basic requirements. Examples of desirable additional qualifications include, but are not limited to:

-Graduates of a three or four year diploma/degree program from a college or university
-Aviation College degree or diploma
-Commercial or military flight experience
-Jet and/or glass cockpit experience

So it looks like if you already have a 3 or 4 year degree /diploma.. you are golden! So why are you pitching this silly 8 month SEENCA course to degree holders?! They've already ticked off that box! There's no box for 8 month airline ops course lol.. you sure you aren't working for Seenca?
Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Thank you for pointing out a spelling error in a post of mine. But give me some credit, I spelled "Seneca" correctly twice later in that post.

But speaking of proof reading, lets take a look at your contributions to this forum. In none of your twelve contributions so far have you been able to put together two paragraphs of thought just lots of drive-by hits on others. In addition to this, you seem to be unable to put a full sentence together and end it with a "." rather than a "...". Or is that morse code?

But there's more!

"And what would be a reasonable pay for a 250TT pilot? If you have no experience to bring to the table, you don't deserve some 50K salary as a 400TT FO.. these very 2 regionals have perpetuated the race to the bottom... so why is everyone wanting to jump onboard? Tell me.. why is a 2 year bond so hard to swallow? It's 2 years!! How people can't fulfill a 1-year commitment is ridiculous... actions like this bring down the whole industry. I've seen it happen over n over and have nil respect for these kind of people... who were so grateful to get that job but.. but.. grass is always greener? NO

... anyway.. rant over... Seems like the industry is breeding more Air France Bonins day by day.... sighhh.. don't be in such a rush people!" "Onboard" is actually spelled "on board". Also, you capitization after ... is inconsistent.

"I'm shocked how pilots these days have no integrity... and no patience... jumping on bonds to go regional ASAP before they've truly learned the fundamentals of flying! Sad state of affairs... if I were an employer and took a gamble on you as a new hire 250TT know-nothing.. where the f@#$ is the gratitude? Unless the flying is ultra sketch and you have wild safety concerns... you owe it to your employer to finish your bond.. maybe i'm just old fashioned and believe in a solid reference. You really shouldn't be applying anywhere til your obligation to your employer is nearly fulfilled. Take some time to smell the roses kids... seems like most pilots lack the true passion for flying and just wanna wear an airline cap for instagram.". "i'm" should be "I'm", "til" should be "until". Instagram is a proper name and should be capitalized.

"Sure seems to be less emphasis on hands and feet skills these days... now Jazz has 1000TT system operators that don't know how to land a plane in marginal wind conditions hehe.. i say again.. 100 hours in a sim and no type rating out of it is a money grab! Might as well go out there and get a flight instructor rating with that cash... (since you'd already have a degree anyway). So basically if you take this course, the main benefit is you can check off the FMS experience box... yayyee! Original poster seems to be under the impression that jazz is openly taking 250TT pilots... last i checked, you had to be crème de la crop from the class... so don't bank on Jazz being your first employer as a pilot! I guess Seneca sold you a different story about their post-post-secondary course haha... FMS is easily learned in an initial course with good trainers! Kids these days are pretty tech savvy... if you have the degree to qualify you for this silly program.. then you already have a leg up on most on the CV pile... there's no point in this program at all unless your mommy and daddy are paying for it." "i say again" should be "I say again" as I is capitalized. Jazz should be capitalized

"Are you kidding me? An 8 month diploma! Ever heard the saying GO BIG OR GO HOME? Either get a 3 or 4 year diploma/degree or don't bother wasting your with this lil post secondary course.. who the heck needs 100 hours in some generic sim? You should atleast come out with a dash type rating after this program

To the OP learn to spell Seneca... especially if you work for them as a recruiter lol.. hard to take your recommendation seriously" What's a "lil"? Is that little or lil'? What's "atleast"?

"Yet that stupid "Where to begin" thread still exists.. what a waste of interweb! 777 O.P. is some sort of Troll that has yet to make a reply.. avcanada.. can you delete that silly thread?""Troll" should not be capitalized

That's enough although each every one of your "contributions" to this website has spelling and grammar errors.

More troubling, however, is that as I look at your posts, you appear to be a very angry person. Lots of vitrol, lots of disparaging remarks, lots of put-downs, lots of jealousy. Sad.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:33 pm

[/quote]You are spreading false information. An 8 month diploma won’t tick any boxes. Every airline job I have applied for in the past that cared about post secondary asks if you have a college diploma or degree. In order to get into this program you need a post secondary education so you would already tick that box. Airlines typically don’t care what your education is in. Bachelor in tiddlywinks? Perfect, welcome aboard.[/quote]

I am afraid you are ill-informed. One of the 2018 cadets who did the post-secondary/commercial license, 8 month Seneca program got hired at Jazz with 260 hours total time and is flying in the right seat of an RJ. He never would have got looked at by Jazz without the Seneca program but he did and now he is flying an RJ. That should tell you something.

To be clear, this program is well suited for just that type of pilot, relatively low time with the post-secondary/commercial license already. As I said earlier, if one wants to take a pass on going up north or some other operator to get time and go straight to a Jazz or other regional airline then this is a program that one should check out. It is not for everyone however my objective is to make people who are on this forum aware of its presence. They can do their own research and see if its suits them.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by rookiepilot » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:47 pm

L39Guy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:33 pm
One of the 2018 cadets who did the post-secondary/commercial license, 8 month Seneca program got hired at Jazz with 260 hours total time and is flying in the right seat of an RJ. That should tell you something.
.....It tells me if true, to tell my friends -- don't book an airline flight on an RJ!

Seriously.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by jt8d » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:36 pm

Umm L39.. thanks for the proof reading bud but seems like you're still missing the point... comprehend much? Rest assured I know how to spell when it matters. I called you out because you couldn't spell the bloody name of your son's program that you are pitching. LOL. If you start a thread, please proof read the title. I'm not going to knit pick the body of your message... who does that? Lol

umm I'm not angry.. hehe.. just saying it how it is.. I'm in a very happy place in life. I actually feel very sorry for your 250TT example RJ kid... will never get to experience flying say a 206.. king air etc.. only flying into ILS airports. What's a circling approach? My point was that you make it sound like if you take this course you stand a darn good chance at going to Jizz with 250TT... not the case bud... not the case

Ps. Save your wise-guy talk for your son... I live in a brick house
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:14 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:47 pm
L39Guy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:33 pm
One of the 2018 cadets who did the post-secondary/commercial license, 8 month Seneca program got hired at Jazz with 260 hours total time and is flying in the right seat of an RJ. That should tell you something.
.....It tells me if true, to tell my friends -- don't book an airline flight on an RJ!

Seriously.
Better not book on a Dash 8, Q400, B737 either as Jazz, Sunwings, (and I believe but not entirely sure) Porter and Encore hire straight out of Seneca and Mount Royal. These carriers obviously think highly of the product that these and other schools produce.

I spoke with a TC inspector that monitors Jazz and Sunwings and he told me that these young aviators do an excellent job...just goes to show you that solid training can make up for fewer hours.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by PilotDAR » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:48 pm

I spoke with a TC inspector that monitors Jazz and Sunwings and he told me that these young aviators do an excellent job
Which would be one opinion , though amazingly general ('sounds like a President I can think of).

I have be told opposing opinions from equally authoritative sources. I accept the reality that these lower time pilots are right seat more and more, but I'm not relaxed about it.

To the fresh graduates of such programs reading this, consider more than one opinion about flying education and experience, as you build yours....
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by iflyforpie » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:58 pm

L39Guy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:14 pm
Better not book on a Dash 8, Q400, B737 either as Jazz, Sunwings, (and I believe but not entirely sure) Porter and Encore hire straight out of Seneca and Mount Royal. These carriers obviously think highly of the product that these and other schools produce.
Sigh..... and it shows.

I'm sure their FMS button pushing and FMC SPD | LNAV | VNAV PATH skills are just awesome, but as far as airmanship, communications, airlaw, and plain situational awareness go they are sorely lacking.

Like a Dash 8 I saw that decided to go down a closed taxiway, probably wondering why we took another taxiway and backtracked in front of them, and got stuck in a place they couldn't turn around.

Or a SAAB that asked for the visual, then when asked if they had the field in sight they said they didn't.

Or a 737 that asked for a shortcut from the STAR to the ILS, and centre asked if they were going to make it, and they said they were, and two minutes later are asking for orbits because they can't make it.

In these situations.... knowing how to push buttons on something I learned to use in a week and mastered in a month after flying planes made before I was born isn't going to help you.

The worst thing is, this course doesn't even tick the box that airlines for some reason so desperately want.

It's a money grab... plain and simple.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by TheRealMcCoy » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:22 pm

So you're completely ignoring my comment even though I've been to one of these so called "top tier" schools? And I was in the Air Force, don't even get me started at that institution...

Keep drinking the kool aid there chum.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:37 pm

TheRealMcCoy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:22 pm
So you're completely ignoring my comment even though I've been to one of these so called "top tier" schools? And I was in the Air Force, don't even get me started at that institution...

Keep drinking the kool aid there chum.
Yes, I tend to ignore people who call people “idiots” on forums. Call me back when you can muster more respect for your colleagues.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:53 pm

iflyforpie wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:58 pm
L39Guy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:14 pm
Better not book on a Dash 8, Q400, B737 either as Jazz, Sunwings, (and I believe but not entirely sure) Porter and Encore hire straight out of Seneca and Mount Royal. These carriers obviously think highly of the product that these and other schools produce.
I'm sure their FMS button pushing and FMC SPD | LNAV | VNAV PATH skills are just awesome, but as far as airmanship, communications, airlaw, and plain situational awareness go they are sorely lacking.

It's a money grab... plain and simple.
Of course they wouldn’t have the airmanship, etc compared to someone who has been flying for years. That’s not a particularly profound observation. But what the young aviators have is the chance to make many of those mistakes in a simulator rather than on the line. I hope that we can agree that there is value to simulator training.

As far as those Dash 8, Saab and 737 incidents, how do you know that these aren’t pilots with thousands of hours of experience and not some newbie? Hell, I screwed up a taxi in Copenhagen a couple of years ago and combined the FO and I we had about 35,000 hours of flying experience on the flight deck that day. I can happen to anyone.

Money grab? What’s 100 hours of CRJ/King Air simulator time with experienced pilot instructors worth per pilot? $15,000 ($150/person/hour)? The entire tuition is less than that. I would submit that this is an incredible bargain.
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Last edited by L39Guy on Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by TheRealMcCoy » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:00 pm

L39Guy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:37 pm
Yes, I tend to ignore people who call people “idiots” on forums. Call me back when you can muster more respect for your colleagues.
Hahaha, read it again. I wasn't referencing you, or any one person for that matter. Merely stating that a human is the same piece of meat they were going in to school as they were coming out.

It's evident that you are convinced that these are the "best" aviators around, so be it. My, albeit minimal, experience leads me to believe otherwise.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by Napoleon So Low » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:14 pm

L39Guy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:53 pm
I would submit that this is an incredible bargain.
Of course you would, you're the one selling it. Some people go out of their way to be polite when they disagree with a poster. Others just call a shill a shill. You are a very good writer. I suspect you've had some professional sales training. You must be very disappointed your cleverly disguised advertisement hasn't produced the desired result.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by jt8d » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:00 am

L39 wrote:

"Onboard" is actually spelled "on board". Also, you capitization after ... is inconsistent.

Yup..
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by PilotDAR » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:18 am

It's a money grab... plain and simple.
Which is not entirely bad, it just depends upon whose money, and who's grabbing. If our fellow Canadians have a good international market, and our industry is an export training business, that employs Canadians, and I'm all for that. If the foreign students come with full pockets, and we Canadians can do good business, good for us! Those foreign students may come from a part of the world where there is no alternative means to enter aviation - okay, follow our path!

However, for we Canadians, flying is opportune in many ways, including building experience "privately" with one's own airplane, so don't discount those other paths to being a professional pilot. Candidates who are already in Canada have choices they should understand, and the resulting cost/benefit to them.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:42 am

[/quote]Hahaha, read it again. I wasn't referencing you, or any one person for that matter. Merely stating that a human is the same piece of meat they were going in to school as they were coming out.

It's evident that you are convinced that these are the "best" aviators around, so be it. My, albeit minimal, experience leads me to believe otherwise.
[/quote]

So you think that nothing is gained by increasing one's knowledge level and experience by doing classroom and simulator work? I am afraid that is not the case in any field. Assuming the material and delivery is pertinent and effective, I would submit that the eight months in this program is time and money well spent.

I never claimed that these are the "best aviators" around but I do claim, based upon my non-minimal experience (36 of professional flying/26,000 hours), that the aviation colleges produce an excellent product, particularly when one considers how few hours they have. This is not unlike the military where a 200 hour or so pilot goes onto to fly fast jets (solo) or C130's, C17's, Airbus A310's as a first tour.

And, as I remarked earlier, one will get some outliers (the 1%) where you wonder how they ever made it through training but I will say this about the military and the aviation colleges: they do an excellent job of filtering. No one filters in the private/multi/IFR/commercial route; you pay your money and you get your endorsements.

It is for all of these reasons why I completely understand why 705 air carriers like pilots that come from these sources and give them preference in hiring - the reputable schools produce a known and respected product. I would also submit too that the aviation colleges guard their reputations carefully and they would be hesitant to graduate someone that risks tarnishing their reputation.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by jt8d » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:47 pm

You got stats on how many of these students from that 8-month airline ops @ seneca course go on to flow through to 705 ops with their 250tt? Just seems like you're pitching this as a total flow through program? Don't be getting kids' hopes up L39. I got a paper degree from an aviation university somewhere in a box in storage. It's comforting to know it will come in handy if I decide to apply to main lines. A fallback I can recommend... but there's no need at all to take this 8-month course! If it was a legit course... you would come out with a dash 8 PPC! 100 hours on what? Maybe I should start a school out of my living room... and offer extensive training on my laptop simulator.. lol.. FMS experience is FMS experience... new pilot could tick that box from my living room.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by iflyforpie » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:33 pm

L39Guy wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:53 pm

Of course they wouldn’t have the airmanship, etc compared to someone who has been flying for years. That’s not a particularly profound observation. But what the young aviators have is the chance to make many of those mistakes in a simulator rather than on the line. I hope that we can agree that there is value to simulator training.
Then what on earth are they doing flying hundreds of people around? When the captain is only a couple years removed from his initial training. That’s why nothing replaces experience.
As far as those Dash 8, Saab and 737 incidents, how do you know that these aren’t pilots with thousands of hours of experience and not some newbie? Hell, I screwed up a taxi in Copenhagen a couple of years ago and combined the FO and I we had about 35,000 hours of flying experience on the flight deck that day. I can happen to anyone.
These weren’t simple mistakes... which we all make. These were lapses in what’s supposed to be common knowledge or actions taken with ample warnings from other parties. If someone asks you a question, or does something different than you’re planning on doing, an experienced pilot will at least stop and consider it.

Sure... I don’t know what the experience level of the individuals are... but man is it ever common. Just today:

“Are you planning on getting visual? Because if not I’ll have to climb you for outbound traffic.”
“Uh yeah... we got visual for a bit but were waiting for another break in the clouds.”
“Well I’ll need you to cancel IFR in a minute or I’ll have to climb you.”
“Uh... can we get the contact approach so I can find a hole to go through? [I don’t know that you need to protect the entire airspace below me to do it]”
“Unable any approach due outbound traffic, I need you to cancel IFR in 30 seconds”
“Ok, we’ll cancel IFR”
“You need to be below 12,500 to cancel IFR”.
“Ok we’re descending [probably in and out of cloud in poor visibility with huge terrain in the area] and we can cancel IFR.”

This wasn’t a Navajo or a King Air or 1900. This was a Dash 8 with the logo of a national airline on it. Does that sound like a surplus of experience in the cockpit or something that a simulator would remedy?
Money grab? What’s 100 hours of CRJ/King Air simulator time with experienced pilot instructors worth per pilot? $15,000 ($150/person/hour)? The entire tuition is less than that. I would submit that this is an incredible bargain.
Retail price? I would imagine that it’s worth a ton. So is 100,000 square feet of tile flooring or 25 cords of firewood or 1000 yards of drainage rock.

Actual worth to a new pilot that’s going to be saturated going through most of it, and then have to be untrained for the actual plane they are going to be flying, which will be provided by the company they work for? Not worth what they are charging.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

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