okotoks flight school

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C.W.E.
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:41 am

Now for any who have not searched these forums and read the 637 times this special technique has been already shared by a troll, I am certain that if you simply suggest that what page 111 states is correct and then bow to the super wisdom of one who really knows you will learn so much. I would offer to do it, but I really have no idea what is on page 111
Interesting.

Someone who is admitting to ignorance of the subject ( but I really have no idea what is on page 111 ) takes the time to write a long rant on trolls.
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trey kule
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by trey kule » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:09 am

I admitted ignorance only to what was referred to on page 111 of some nameless flight manual.

I guess when you get old, and the goal is to argue, one can choose to pretend to lack reading comprehension skills. A virtue for Trolls, who like to ask questions to entrap the unwary.

To be accurate though, help me out. How many times have you posted your method for wheel landings on these forums?

BTW. I last flew a taildragger two months ago. When was the last time you flew one?
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:24 am

I admitted ignorance only to what was referred to on page 111 of some nameless flight manual.


It has been a long time since I opened one of T.C.'s training guides and I noticed a book mark in the flight training manual at page 111
Here let me be more specific regarding the manual I am referring to.

It is Transport Canada's Aeroplane Flight Training Manual 4th. edition.
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by trey kule » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:00 pm

Your right, the manual definitely needs amending.
Can you do all aviation a public service and get them to amend the manual?

Just funning with you CWE. You’re not the only old bored cantankerous guy-on these forums.
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by Squaretail » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:18 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:58 am

As I recall her opinion on the FIG was in reference to the " Laws of Learning "

She said she never heard of these laws.
Regardless, the question still stands. What part about the principles I already mentioned do you find objectionable? For the record, I tend to agree with most of what photofly has pointed out as faults of the guide. I’m still not really sure what you find wrong with it, besides a general dislike of it based upon its source and someone else’s opinion.

We can break it down if you would like. Do you object to the principle of primacy?
It has been a long time since I opened one of T.C.'s training guides and I noticed a book mark in the flight training manual at page 111 describing wheel landings and the way it is described there does not describe the way I perform wheel landings.
Nice dodge there by the way. Have you considered getting into politics? We’re talking about the FTM now? Fair enough. Personally I have found even less to quibble with within its pages, though I confess to not having read much since I stopped instructing regularly. I used to have a list, but let me review it when I get time.
What are your thoughts on how that manual describes how to perform a wheel landing?
Enlighten us to what it says and what you disagree with so we can have a starting point to discuss. You may wish to start a new thread on the matter for the audience’s clarity.
By the way I do wheel landings almost exclusively in tail wheel airplanes except for one or two airplanes due to the visibility problem they have looking forward.
--
That’s great. Do what works for you.
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by C.W.E. » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:41 pm

I used to have a list, but let me review it when I get time.
Fine, after you review it get back to me and let me know what you think about the description on how to wheel land and if you find there is a bit of strange advice on the procedure.
Enlighten us to what it says and what you disagree with so we can have a starting point to discuss. You may wish to start a new thread on the matter for the audience’s clarity.
If you do not find the part I am referring to would you join the other Canadain forum where these discussions are so much easire to have and I will be pleased to discuss it with you.
In the mean time, you can tell us why you disagree with the principle of primacy. And if you wish to discuss the merits or faults of the FTM’s tailwheel instructions you can tell us about that.
Where did I say I disagree with the principle of primacy?

As I said lets discuss it on the other forum.

Chuck Ellsworth.
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Last edited by C.W.E. on Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by Squaretail » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:17 pm

In the mean time, you can tell us why you disagree with the principle of primacy. And if you wish to discuss the merits or faults of the FTM’s tailwheel instructions you can tell us about that. I will admit it surprises me you have a ready copy of the 4th edition. I actually still only have my copies of the 3rd edition (grey cover) and 2nd editions (light blue, small size). For reference, is your edition the blue cover or the purple “revised” edition. Not that I can recall the minor differences between the two, though I think it has to do with differing techniques of exercise 21. Maybe 22. My last 4th edition of course has never been returned to me since the last time I lent it out. Word of advice to new instructors, don’t lend students nothing unless you don’t want it back. No matter what sob story they tell you.

Edit: Just googled the FTM, that sucker is going for almost a hundred bucks on Amazon... wtf!?
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:53 pm

In the mean time, you can tell us why you disagree with the principle of primacy.
Once again I don't recall saying I disagree with the principal of primacy.
And if you wish to discuss the merits or faults of the FTM’s tailwheel instructions you can tell us about that. I will admit it surprises me you have a ready copy of the 4th edition.
I have a copy of that publication because I was a professional teacher of flying and used every publication I could find to read and use any ideas or methods that would improve my understanding of the art of airplane handling and decision making.

By the way I found an old PPC check ride record and the T.C. inspector wrote a comment that was quite interesting at the end of the PPC report.
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by Squaretail » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:24 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:53 pm

Once again I don't recall saying I disagree with the principal of primacy.
Ok, that is in the section you say your wife has never heard of and you seem to disagree with. Perhaps it is the principle of exercise you disagree with?


I have a copy of that publication because I was a professional teacher of flying and used every publication I could find to read and use any ideas or methods that would improve my understanding of the art of airplane handling and decision making.
Fair enough. I was just operating under the assumption you haven’t done any ab initio since the revised 4th edition came out (I’m thinking late 90’s? I don’t know off hand when the “revised” edition came out) and this probably haven’t bothered with a newer copy. After all I have no idea of your own training career. Only that it has seemed you have not done any since the existence of this forum. At least you have not mentioned you have. If I am mistaken in that assumption, kudos to you.
By the way I found an old PPC check ride record and the T.C. inspector wrote a comment that was quite interesting at the end of the PPC report.


Well don’t leave us hanging, do tell!
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by C-GKNT » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:36 pm

I did my aeroplane to helicopter conversion in 2013. The AVERAGE time of my 3 instructors was in excess of 15,000 hours. Instructors fees were $250/hour dual AND solo. Was it worth it? well...yes, best instruction I have EVER had but I have no clue how some of the students are able to pay for it.

Glenn
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by Zaibatsu » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:32 am

Here. Let’s just make it clear.

CWE or Chucks wife believes that students should should not be ready for their lessons, that repetition of tasks does not do anything to build a skill, they should not enjoy their lessons, they should not be taught right the first time, that they remember things taught long before the last thing they were taught, that lessons should be boring, and that complex things should be taught before simple things.

When I think about it, there were a lot of educators in my youth who embodied those anti-principles. Anyone else?Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by C.W.E. » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:43 am

By the way I do wheel landings almost exclusively in tail wheel airplanes except for one or two airplanes due to the visibility problem they have looking forward.
My comment above was made to point out that I do mostly wheel landings because they are the most efficient, safe and easy method of landing most tail wheel airplanes.
That’s great. Do what works for you.
Your response was rather vague, however I am interested in your opinion on wheel landing versus three point landings.
Fair enough. I was just operating under the assumption you haven’t done any ab initio since the revised 4th edition came out (I’m thinking late 90’s? I don’t know off hand when the “revised” edition came out) and this probably haven’t bothered with a newer copy. After all I have no idea of your own training career.
I received my flight instructor rating in 1957 and did ab-initio until the early sixties.

I taught Ag. Flying, Fire Bombing, and did type ratings all during my flying career until I retired in 2005 at which time I was still teaching advanced flying in Europe under a EASA unlimited airdisplay authority.


The training programs in Europe are far more demanding than any country that I was approved to teach in which were FAA / EASA / and CASA in Australia.
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by Squaretail » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:03 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:43 am

Your response was rather vague, however I am interested in your opinion on wheel landing versus three point landings.
No you’re not. My response was to indicate that I don’t really care how you do tailwheel landings or why you do them that way. Nor was it really relevant to the topic at hand.

Besides, the Colonel already wrote an exhaustive examination of the subject on another forum. When it comes to technique I tend to agree with him.

I received my flight instructor rating in 1957 and did ab-initio until the early sixties.
You’ll forgive me if I suspect that he view though fifty some years in the past may be a little rose tinted.

Either way, I can see that we won’t get a useful response out of you on how the FIG could be improved. I should have stuck with my usual hunch and not bothered to engage you on the subject.
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by C.W.E. » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:29 pm

Either way, I can see that we won’t get a useful response out of you on how the FIG could be improved.
Well for a start the first sentence is so simplistic it seems to have been written for those who are at the bottom of the IQ scale under the heading of.

" The Instructional Role. "

The purpose if all instruction is to help students learn.

Fortunately there is no minimum education required to be a pilot so I decided it was the career for me.
Besides, the Colonel already wrote an exhaustive examination of the subject on another forum. When it comes to technique I tend to agree with him.
For sure Andy is a true expert on the subject and is a friend of mine who I quite admire in fact we are good enough friends he contacted me about flying a Beech 18 he was about to fly as he had heard rumours it was a tricky airplane to land.

You should contact Andy and ask him what he thought about my advice on how to land it.
I should have stuck with my usual hunch and not bothered to engage you on the subject.
I feel really dejected that you feel that way but I hope in time the hurt will fade.

You really should join us over on the other forum as it is so much easier to openly discuss things there.

In the mean time I started a new post on this forum titled.

" Landing. "

If you read it can you let me know if it is useful in teaching flying, and if not why?

Chuck Ellsworth.
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by Squaretail » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:36 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:29 pm

Well for a start the first sentence is so simplistic it seems to have been written for those who are at the bottom of the IQ scale under the heading of.
If we are to judge the material based on its literary merits, then I have yet to find anything that was particularly incredible. Even Stick and Rudder was hardly readable in that regard. And maybe you haven’t noticed, but most AFMs are written hardly hiding how poorly learned engineers assume that their pilot readership is going to be. It doesn’t mean the information within such tomes should be discounted.
" The Instructional Role. "

The purpose if all instruction is to help students learn.
You would maybe be surprised how many instructors should read that line a bit more carefully. Or maybe not. Depends on how many instructor students you taught over the years. As a case in point I had one person who desired to get his rating whose motivation to become an instructor was to, “become a big fish in a small pond”. I declined to take him as a student. Instruction isn’t to pad your ego, to build hours, to get more paper qualifications.

Maybe a lot of people skip that bit. It would explain a lot of the shitty instruction I have seen evidence of.
You should contact Andy and ask him what he thought about my advice on how to land it.
Why would I need to bother him about that? What is between you and him is your business, not mine.
You really should join us over on the other forum as it is so much easier to openly discuss things there.
I gave up on that place a long time ago. I occasionally read it if I’m exceedingly bored and have free wifi, but I also don’t like my browser feeding me links to far right propaganda, so I try to avoid it.
If you read it can you let me know if it is useful in teaching flying, and if not why?
Not going to bother.
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by C.W.E. » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:53 pm

Not going to bother.


Oh well I guess we can agree to end our brief attempt at discussing flying training, in my experience there is not much hope trying to open a closed mind.

All the best in your flying career...fly safe.
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Re: okotoks flight school

Post by C.W.E. » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:12 pm

In response to Squaretail and our discussions here.
Fair enough. I was just operating under the assumption you haven’t done any ab initio since the revised 4th edition came out (I’m thinking late 90’s? I don’t know off hand when the “revised” edition came out)
Today I was going through my file cabinet and damned if I didn't find two new copies of the " Revised " edition of the FTM that I have left over from my flying school's manuals I had for sale.

The Revised edition was published in 1998 and the cover is purple.

And the advice on how to wheel land is still the same, not very well explained and in fact if followed will not be very useful if your intent is to land smoothly and not eat up lots of runway.

Edit: Just googled the FTM, that sucker is going for almost a hundred bucks on Amazon... wtf!?
Hmmmm, maybe I should sell one of mine.
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