Conventional Gear Situation

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Laythe
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Conventional Gear Situation

Post by Laythe » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:28 am

Hey I wanted to hear some opinions on an idea my uncle and I were talking about.

My uncle owns a 1947 C140 which is a tail dragger, my uncle has his private license and 1200hrs on type. I am a new pilot with my CPL tests completed and Multi engine rating, I need to build 40 hours pic to finish off my CPL. So I have a few options.

My uncle is willing to show me the ropes of tail draggers and fly his plane for my time building. Because I'm time building for PIC I would be logging the time as such.

So a few questions I have are, do I need to log the time as duel for the first few flights as that shows I've been taught how to fly conventional gear, is this something my uncle is even able to do with only a PPL? If I have hours on a tail dragger for example about 10 but haven't gotten an endorsement from a flight school am i still able to fly into the United States? Do company's who like tail dragger time want to see that the training was duel with an instructor or will having 40 PIC hours in a tail dragger with no duel be a problem.

Thanks for any info.
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ahramin
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by ahramin » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:37 am

It is absolutely legal for your uncle to train you to fly a new type with his PPL and you can log it as dual.

As for logging the time as PIC, you're asking the wrong question. Instead of trying to figure out what you can and cannot get away with, ask yourself this simple question: who is pilot in command? Who is the person in charge and responsible for the conduct of the flight? If it's you and the other pilot is a passenger on that leg, log it as PIC. If it's the other pilot and you are getting instruction, log it as dual. If it's the other pilot and you are not getting instruction, do not log it at all (or at least not PIC or dual).

Learning to make your records correct rather than trying to figure out what corners you can cut and still get away with is a valuable lesson at this stage of your career and will likely prove very helpful later on. Whether it takes you one hour or twenty to learn to keep it straight, log it as dual. When you're ready to be PIC on your own, log it as PIC.

There is no such this as a tailwheel endorsement for a Canadian licence so it is not a requirement here or anywhere else in the world. If you convert it to another state's licence, they may or may not require you to get the endorsement, but you can fly your Canadian registered aircraft anywhere in the world with just your Canadian licence. No need to worry about endorsements.
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l_reason
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by l_reason » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:39 am

In your license book it says something to the effect “ALL single engine land airplanes”. Really you can walk up to that 140 get in and fly away if you can get insurance (make sure you are insured before solo!). That being said you’d probably wreck it on your first landing attempt. I’d log the first 3 hours dual COT (checkout on type). There is a regulation that says you can do that, and as an aspiring CPL you can go forth and try to find it in the CAR’s. Your uncle has far more tailwheel time then you are likely to find with a local flight school instructor. Please take some of what he says and does with a grain of salt. He probably hasn’t done much ground school or training recently. You as an aspiring CPL should keep a close eye on W&B, airspace, notams, circuit procedure and some of the other recreational flying habitats he may have.

Lastly learn how to takeoff and land that C-140 in up to a 15kt crosswind. Be hard on yourself holding the centreline of the runway. Please keep in mind that you can “crash” a taildragger at walking speed, so give it your full attention until it’s shutdown and chocked.

Send me a DM if you want some tips on how to fly it or exercises to practice with him.

Have fun
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by PilotDAR » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:58 am

What I reason said.

And to add, be sure to be proficient in wheel landings and three point (which wheel landings being my preference) before you decide you're checked out. Treat directional control as though you're trying to land on a sidewalk, zero tolerance for wandering laterally, keep it exactly down the centerline, and you'll have less trouble with risk of groundloop.

The skills you will build in a taildragger will serve you well piloting any other aircraft type, and they will be noticed by other more experienced pilots you may fly with. Several pilots have commented to me "you must fly a lot of taildragger" while flying with me, most notably in a Twin Otter, which is hardly a taildragger, but the technique I applied to flying it was noticed favourably. Those kind of comments remind me of the value of learning then applying basic hands and feet skills.

Fly the 140 as much as you can, they're great! (and take I reason up on his generous offer!)
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photofly
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by photofly » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:02 am

I_reason did some hours with me in his Luscombe; I found his advice and training extremely valuable and now he's one of the voices in my head when I fly (don't ask about the others).

On the subject of logging hours: if someone is genuinely instructing you, and they're PIC, you should log it as dual in your personal flight log. When it comes to licensing time (you're more or less over that hurdle now) that dual time may not count towards the experience requirements for some licence or rating, but that doesn't mean it wasn't dual instruction, it just means you can't count it towards the total for that licence or rating.

At the very least, you may at some future date want to say to some insurance company, or employer, "see, I had x hours of dual with this very experience taildragger pilot, and here's the contemporaneous evidence of that, because I recorded it in my log at the time."
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corethatthermal
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by corethatthermal » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:03 am

up to a 15kt crosswind
+1
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:46 am

up to a 15kt crosswind
The above should be a 15kt. 90 degree crosswind.
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ayseven
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by ayseven » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:27 pm

Chuck you are still a sadist...
Man that is going to be a fun experience on that thing!
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:40 pm

When I used to do tail wheel checkouts to plots who were already licensed to fly before we went flying they had to demonstrate they could safely control it with the tail in the air for the full length of the runway, both straight down the centre line and also S turning down the centre line.

When they were comfortable doing that we then went flying.
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by corethatthermal » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:03 pm

I should have said variable and gusty crosswinds ( much different than a steady crosswind ) Once landed in YPQ and had to fly it to the tie-down spot ( wheels both off the ground when taxiing ! )
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Laythe
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by Laythe » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:05 am

Hey thank you everyone for all the great info. Definetly will be vigilent with the paperwork I'll be handling most of the ground stuff, notams and such (Hate the new notam site). Mostly was curious about the time logging and I after reading here and looking it up I think that's exactly what I'll be doing. First 2 or 3 flights will most likely end up being circuits anyways so I'll log those as duel and any extra training where if an emergency happened he'd be doing the flying. After I'm set up and feeling good I'll start racking in the PIC time. I'm definetly in no rush and will just be having a good time flying with my uncle and enjoying an awesome airplane which I'm excited to learn on.

If anyone has any wise Taildragger tips please feel free to let me know I'd love any bit of experience you guys can give me!
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:42 am

If anyone has any wise Taildragger tips please feel free to let me know I'd love any bit of experience you guys can give me!
Keep it on the centre line until it is stopped.
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by ahramin » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:37 pm

I may have misunderstood. Are you going to be flying this aircraft solo, or only with your uncle on board? Are you being added to the insurance and if so, what requirements has the underwriter put in place for you to be PIC?
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Laythe
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by Laythe » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:05 pm

I will be doing a majority of the flying with my uncle for insurance reasons.
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by PilotDAR » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:29 pm

I'll log those as duel


Dual will be safer, both you and your uncle can claim victory, and live....

Crosswinds: It's a plane, like any other plane, while in flight. When taking off, or landing in a crosswind, it's still a plane, and can still be flown. Don't be afraid of it. If, you cannot taxi it straight, or on final, you cannot keep it lined up, perhaps the wind is more than you can handle. For that plane, a 10 to 12 MPH direct crosswind would be what was demonstrated. The POH probably says, though the older format may have predated stating this value. 15 kts may be optimistic, and is beyond what the plane was required to demonstrate during certification (0.2 Vs0). Get comfortable within the design of the plane, before challenging yourself too much.

As long as the rudder is effective (around 10 to 15 MPH forward speed), the rudder is doing most, if not all of the directional control. don't think you need to have the tailwheel on the runway to steer. At 15 MPH, it's holding the tail up, not really steering you. Once you get onto a really slippery runway, this will become more clear to you, as you might have difficulty keeping the nose straight while taxiing slowly, of the tailwheel has no traction.

So focus on using the rudder to steer the plane, and focus less on applying weight to the tailwheel. If you have enough elevator effectiveness to hold the tailwheel off the ground, you most likely have enough rudder effectiveness to keep it straight - so no excuses, keep it straight! After a very nice wheel landing, don't be in a hurry to get the tailwheel on. Every (not short field) landing I fly in my taildragger will reach a point where the tailwheel is settling on while I apply full nose down elevator, and it works just fine! ( I don't fly short field landings in it often, the plane gets in plenty short the regular way!).

The taildragger expects you to fly it. If you let it fly you, you're both going to regret it!
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by photofly » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:35 pm

Laythe wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:05 pm
I will be doing a majority of the flying with my uncle for insurance reasons.
If the insurance doesn't allow you to be PIC then you can't honestly log the time as PIC.
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:04 pm

The two most important issues are.

Are you insured to fly it solo.

Are you in the airplane journey log as PIC when you log it as PIC in your personal log book?
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Laythe
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by Laythe » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:45 am

I will be PIC in the journey Log and PIC in my logbook assuming I'm actually doing PIC flying. As for the insurance end of things it's not my airplane nor have I ever owned one so not sure what the rules for his insurance are. All I know is what I was told and it was and I quote "We don't need insurance stuff while I'm with you. Initially anyway." what that means exactly I have no idea but from what I understand when I fly pic it will be entered into the journey log as such.
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ahramin
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by ahramin » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:28 am

Ok I think I understand. You could log the first 3 hours as dual, putting both your names in the journey log and having your uncle sign those entries. Then for the rest of your flying have your uncle on board for insurance and training purposes but only put your name in the journey log, you sign the entry and log it as PIC. This seems to be the plan you were indicating in your original post. This maximizes your PIC time on paper and you have a very good chance of not getting caught. The only way I see you getting caught is a very sharp TC person happens to ramp check you (incredibly unlikely), TC goes looking through your records after an accident (very unlikely), or someone catches on that your skill level doesn't match your claimed experience and calls TC about it (I've seen it happen but again unlikely). So your odds are very good of getting away with it.

The big problem with that plan is that you would miss out on the chance to start being in the habit of making sure you always do things correctly and legally. It may feel like cutting corners and logging as much PIC time is going to get you ahead right now, but later in your career those same habits can lead you to a smoking hole in the ground after you get taken advantage of for someone else's profit.

In my experience, a much better idea right now would be instead of asking "How can I get away with logging this time as PIC", start researching what the requirements are to actually be PIC. It's fine to let your uncle worry about the paperwork and legalities while he is checking you out on his aircraft. He's the PIC, he's responsible, and you can legally log the time as dual under his instruction. Before you log the time as PIC though, make sure you are the PIC. When you rent from a flight school, it's reasonable to trust that they are following their maintenance schedule and that their insurance is in place for you to be PIC. On a private aircraft it's very different. Go through the aircraft's maintenance records for the last couple years and compare them to the maintenance schedule in CAR 625 B and C. Find all open defects and make sure they are not airworthiness items. Look up the minimum insurance requirements and make sure you meet them on your own.

It's perfectly ok for your uncle to say don't worry about insurance, or anything else, but if he's the one making these decisions then he's obviously the PIC. Logging it as such is going to be much better for you in the long run.
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Laythe
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by Laythe » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:27 pm

I am really confused,I am not trying to "get away" with anything, the reason I asked these questions is to make sure everything I am doing is perfectly legal. After a couple of duel hours I will be flying as the PIC, I will be left seat, pilot flying, and handling any emergency at which point my uncle will basically be a passenger who knows some helpful tips about tail draggers. His maintenance is up the spec and if It's not I wont be flying the aircraft, it is certified and airworthy, the only question is with the insurance but my uncle informed me that he called them and asked and said to me "We don't need insurance stuff while I'm with you. Initially anyway." what exactly this means I have no idea, but you make it seem like hes saying I'm not legally able to be PIC which I do not think that he was implying that. Sounds like to me he more so means that logging the first few duel hours will be no problem as he works on getting me put on so that I can be PIC. Or maybe he is implying that as long as I am not going to be fulltime operating the aircraft for several months his insurance does not require adding me on. Again I do not know much about private insurance but my uncle has been piloting a long time and an aircraft owner for over 20 years, I don't believe he's lying to me about his insurance. I think you are somehow looking at this like I'm going to be the passenger or not PIC while logging time as such which is not true. Honestly he wouldn't even need to come with me after the duel flights but he's retired and an aircraft owner and doesn't get nearly enough use out of his aircraft, I figured pairing up my training, having his experience, and getting him some use out of his aircraft would be a fun, safe, and LEGAL thing that we could do together while also achieving a goal.

Again tell me exactly what is so sketchy here because I am not trying to cut corners, if I went to a flight school and rented an aircraft I would still bring my uncle along just for fun as a passenger so i see no difference other than potential insurance differences.
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:44 pm

If I were hiring you to fly for me my question would be why not fly without your uncle with you so there would be no question of who was PIC.

My concern would be wondering how many if any possible bad habits your uncle may have that would be transferred to you.

Considering your uncle is not a professional pilot.
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by PilotDAR » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:15 am

For a Cessna 140, as long as you learn to land three point, and wheel landing, and can handle a 10 MPH crosswind, I would really not be too worried about picking up any bad habits in it. In a turbine twin, yes, you could pick up bad habits, in a single taildragger, not so much. Just don't let the good habits you demonstrated to earn your CPL erode!

As for PIC, Member Big Pistons Forever is really the guy to answer the nuances of that. But in my casual opinion, you're technically legal to fly the plane within your license privileges, log the PIC. If your uncle is along for insurance, and everyone is happy, I really can't imagine anyone trying to deny you the credit for the PIC time, as long as you did take the responsibility for the flight, and fly the plane.
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:09 pm

From the Aeronautics Act

“pilot-in-command means, in relation to an aircraft, the pilot having responsibility and authority for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time; (commandant de bord)”

The most practical way to look at this is as follows:

If the OP is if flying the aircraft with his uncle and you had an accident would you tell the Insurance company you were the PIC. If the answer is no then I would suggest you are not the PIC

The best way to handle this in my personal opinion is to ask the insurance company to put you on their insurance with your uncle acting as your instructor for a predetermined number of hours which you would log as dual. After that you would be a named pilot on the insurance and you could if you wish, continue to fly with your uncle. You would be PIC and your uncle would be a passenger
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Re: Conventional Gear Situation

Post by C.W.E. » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:37 pm

The best way to handle this in my personal opinion is to ask the insurance company to put you on their insurance with your uncle acting as your instructor for a predetermined number of hours which you would log as dual. After that you would be a named pilot on the insurance and you could if you wish, continue to fly with your uncle. You would be PIC and your uncle would be a passenger
Exactly.
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