Is Jazz Approach worth it?

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nutlord
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Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by nutlord »

Assuming you have the money, no loan required, is Jazz approach worth it? An extra 50-60k upfront cost to train, but a headstart with seniority at air Canada?

I'm already 27 years old, so I'm starting a few years behind a lot of other fellas, but the positive is that I have enough squirreled away to be able to pay for a more expensive program like this. Is it worth it in the long run?
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L39Guy
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by L39Guy »

I generally get flamed for advocating the Jazz route so at great risk of having that occur again, I will. See the following threadviewtopic.php?p=1116212#p1116212. Also, don't look at how things are today; consider how things will be a few years from now when things return to "normal", whatever that is.

If your career objective is to go to AC then the Jazz route is the least risk as AC/Jazz have an agreement to hire 60% from Jazz. Pre-COVID that meant two years at Jazz before one could go to AC.

What is the best way to get to Jazz for someone like yourself with no flying time but money? Probably the Jazz/Seneca/CAE route (if that is still available) as that is 18 months from ab initio to program completion. If you already have post secondary, getting your ratings first then doing the one year program as described in the link above would be the next fastest route. Finally, most of the two year aviation college programs are on Jazz's Pathways program so if you do well there you are offered a position with Jazz.

Like most things, COVID has upended what was the norm even two months ago but assuming things return to where they were in 2 to 3 three years, hiring at AC and Jazz will resume.
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lownslow
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by lownslow »

Does that program still exist now? If so, will it go on for much longer?
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nutlord
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by nutlord »

L39Guy wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:07 pm
I generally get flamed for advocating the Jazz route so at great risk of having that occur again, I will. See the following threadviewtopic.php?p=1116212#p1116212. Also, don't look at how things are today; consider how things will be a few years from now when things return to "normal", whatever that is.

If your career objective is to go to AC then the Jazz route is the least risk as AC/Jazz have an agreement to hire 60% from Jazz. Pre-COVID that meant two years at Jazz before one could go to AC.

What is the best way to get to Jazz for someone like yourself with no flying time but money? Probably the Jazz/Seneca/CAE route (if that is still available) as that is 18 months from ab initio to program completion. If you already have post secondary, getting your ratings first then doing the one year program as described in the link above would be the next fastest route. Finally, most of the two year aviation college programs are on Jazz's Pathways program so if you do well there you are offered a position with Jazz.

Like most things, COVID has upended what was the norm even two months ago but assuming things return to where they were in 2 to 3 three years, hiring at AC and Jazz will resume.
Ok thanks for the insight. I already have a university degree, though it's in UBW so not the most useful. As a follow on question, if you complete one of these programs and Jazz offers your a job, how much say do you have in the location?
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jpilot77
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by jpilot77 »

First thing you don’t get any seniority at AC. On where you are based when hired, it depends where they need pilots and what seniority you draw. It’s possible that Jazz might not be hiring for 2 years plus. This sort of arrangement works in the pre COVID pilot shortage environment where places like Jazz and Encore’s hiring minimums where 1000 hours total time (and lower for some of the college graduates) cause that’s all that was available to them. But in the future their minimums for hiring might be 3000-4000 hours like it has been in the past. How long it will take to get back to the crazy days of 2017-2020? So if I was in your shoes I’d get my license quickly and try to find a job. You could be waiting a long time for Jazz.
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nutlord
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by nutlord »

jpilot77 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:28 pm
First thing you don’t get any seniority at AC. On where you are based when hired, it depends where they need pilots and what seniority you draw. It’s possible that Jazz might not be hiring for 2 years plus. This sort of arrangement works in the pre COVID pilot shortage environment where places like Jazz and Encore’s hiring minimums where 1000 hours total time (and lower for some of the college graduates) cause that’s all that was available to them. But in the future their minimums for hiring might be 3000-4000 hours like it has been in the past. How long it will take to get back to the crazy days of 2017-2020? So if I was in your shoes I’d get my license quickly and try to find a job. You could be waiting a long time for Jazz.
I thought that Jazz approach guarantees you a job with them upon completion of training?
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airway
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by airway »

Jazz is a separate company from Air Canada, although Air Canada does on about 10% of Jazz‘s parent company stock Chorus (CHR). It has a contract with Air Canada to do much of their regional flying. Air Canada also has agreement with Jazz to hire 60% of their new hires from Jazz.
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jpilot77
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by jpilot77 »

nutlord wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:14 am
jpilot77 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:28 pm
First thing you don’t get any seniority at AC. On where you are based when hired, it depends where they need pilots and what seniority you draw. It’s possible that Jazz might not be hiring for 2 years plus. This sort of arrangement works in the pre COVID pilot shortage environment where places like Jazz and Encore’s hiring minimums where 1000 hours total time (and lower for some of the college graduates) cause that’s all that was available to them. But in the future their minimums for hiring might be 3000-4000 hours like it has been in the past. How long it will take to get back to the crazy days of 2017-2020? So if I was in your shoes I’d get my license quickly and try to find a job. You could be waiting a long time for Jazz.
I thought that Jazz approach guarantees you a job with them upon completion of training?
Except if half the current Jazz pilots are on furlough you ain’t getting hired till they are hired back first.
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rudder
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by rudder »

nutlord wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:56 pm
Assuming you have the money, no loan required, is Jazz approach worth it? An extra 50-60k upfront cost to train, but a headstart with seniority at air Canada?

I'm already 27 years old, so I'm starting a few years behind a lot of other fellas, but the positive is that I have enough squirreled away to be able to pay for a more expensive program like this. Is it worth it in the long run?
No.
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nutlord
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by nutlord »

rudder wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:40 am
nutlord wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:56 pm
Assuming you have the money, no loan required, is Jazz approach worth it? An extra 50-60k upfront cost to train, but a headstart with seniority at air Canada?

I'm already 27 years old, so I'm starting a few years behind a lot of other fellas, but the positive is that I have enough squirreled away to be able to pay for a more expensive program like this. Is it worth it in the long run?
No.
Do you mind elaborating on why?
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rudder
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by rudder »

Jazz will probably not be hiring again until 2022. Why? Because AC will probably not be hiring before 2022, or later. It is all a function of stagnant recovery to 2019 flying levels and nominal age 65 retirement rates for both carriers.

The days of hiring 300-500 pilots per year are over. The days of 12-24 month upgrades at both Jazz and AC are over. If nothing else, the COVID crisis has shattered the aviation bubble and will force a return to the norm as far as hiring and career progression are concerned. No more fast lane. Pathways Program graduates will not be going direct to Jazz until all layoffs are back. That also will be 2022 or later. No pathways grads hired in 2020. None in 2021. Perhaps none in 2022.

So there will be a return to placing value on experience. Use the time to go get some. Build up hours. Fill out pages in your log book not your cheque book.

Nobody should ever pay-to-play. That is what the Jazz Approach program represents. Why spend $50-60k in 2020/2021 for a potential spot at Jazz in 2023? And that pilot hired at Jazz in 2023 would be fortunate to have an opportunity to go to AC within 3-5 years.

The math has all changed, and so should the career strategy for new entrants in to the profession.
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nutlord
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by nutlord »

I understand that the pay to play approach is reviled by a lot of members of the aviation community. It's essentially a rich kid's way to get an easy in into the cushy job without paying their dues. That being said, I'm about to finish up a 10 year contract in the military, so I feel that although I won't have that same experience of flying in an out of Pikangikum and hauling boxes for 2 years before getting to fly, I have still gotten some sort of real world experience that will make me more valuable to work with than a pilot mill alone would.

My reasoning for wanting to go through a simple pilot mill like this is that: I already have several years of military flying experience (navigator, not pilot) so I feel that I'll have enough prior experience to not need full babysitting. My wife is professional who works in one of the Jazz hubs so I'd rather just "pay my way" into the airline so that I can live in a city where she is also working and we can minimize the stress that I'm putting on the family by the career change. 10 years of long distance as a result of the military is enough.

I think that my primary concern is that Jazz approach will not actually prepare me to be a safe and effective airline pilot. 250 hours is not a lot of time, and although I have prior military flight experience, the type of flying, and the air environment that I have been working in is extremely different from what is done in the airlines.

Finally, if this is the wrong attitude to have about entering commercial aviation, please let me know. I don't want to shit in anybody's cornflakes, and I don't want to be a pain in the ass for the captains that I work with as a result of not having paid their dues when I do eventually get into the right seat.
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L39Guy
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by L39Guy »

You have every right to choose or, at least seek, your own career path in the aviation industry. There is no need to apologize for using cash to buy the training you need to satisfy your career objectives. There are no awards for subordinating your desires just because someone pooh, poohs them.

As you stated earlier, your desired career path is to go to AC and presumably as quick as possible. The Jazz route in my estimation is best to satisfy that objective. While do not know what post-COVID is going to look like, we do know what pre-COVID was like. AC was taking 60% from Jazz, about 20% from their other regionals and the remaining 20% from outside the AC family.

If you are outside the AC family you had to have some smokin' good credentials including military training (mostly transports), thousands of hours, wide-body experience, etc. There were new hires that were captains at Emirates, FO's from Cathay, etc. It was a pretty competitive field. And that was when AC was hiring ~600 per year.

Post COVID is tough to predict. When will the industry be back to where it was - most say 3 years. If that is the case, then AC will be back to hiring by then as the new flight and duty time regs will come into force and will necessitate hiring (I suspect they have been suspended for now owing to the economic crisis in the industry) and the relentless march of time and demographics will mean ~120 retirements per year. The early retirement program that they recently offered created less than 100 retirement over a 7 year eligibility window so that is an average of 15 per year so the normal retirement figures will be about 100 per year.

So, if approximately 20% of the 100 positions that are open due to retirements are on offer to non-AC family pilots, that's 20 per year, one sixth of the pre-COVID number. If you think pre-COVID was competitive, post-COVID will be hyper competitive. In your case, you have no chance of getting the experience and credentials anytime soon that would put you in their league so Jazz/Sky Service/PAL seems to be the ticket.

Doing your training over the next few years is the best place to weather this storm. My earlier advice of the Jazz/CAE/Seneca program, the Seneca 1 year program or a two-year program at one of the aviation colleges on the Jazz Pathways program is even more valid knowing more about your situation. The issues is not where you and the industry are today, the issue is where do you want to be in 2 or 3 three years when it has recovered.
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trey kule
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by trey kule »

From what I read here you have a strong resume. The kind I used to like to see.

But , to look at the reality of the situation right now, the industry is in a state of flux. Maybe less people flying. Maybe some airlines will pull out and the opportunity for others to expand will come about even with less travel. I really doubt that anyone is able, at this time to predict the future. And that makes career planning maybe a bit difficult. Particularly your plan to remain where you are and go directly to a major.

If I was to crystal ball guess, this whole scenario will weed out those that did not get into aviation because they loved to fly or work on airplanes. Those that just got into it for the perceived benefits will not return if they are not near the top of the furloughed seniority list.
Could be 100% wrong.

Pertaining directly to your question. If you love to fly. Go fly. You have maturity ( i know its not PC to even suggest in Canada that 20 year olds have no place in the cockpit of a heavy) , but it is true, nontheless. You have education, and the discipline that comes from the military. Get your licenses and ratings, andstay current. But I think you are going to maybe have to make some sacrifices to get where you want to go. While the industry slammed on the brakes, the training mills didnt respond by cancelling programs, so you will be competing with the “I’ll do anything” group of newly minted pilots.

In my career I have been through this before, and it will work out, but the timing might not be to your liking.

Best of luck.
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nutlord
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by nutlord »

Thanks Trey, that's reassuring to hear.
Do you think there would be any benefit in me beginning my training in 2 years to give the industry more time to recover? I could stay in the RCAF in the meantime and keep saving up for the poor pay in the interim period.
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by Stu Pidasso »

Afternoon Nutlord, can you not get your private, commercial and multi IFR while staying in the Military? This is a perfect time to start the training, who knows what the fall out will look like after this sh@t storm passes. Hopefully the larger operators in this country survive, if that's the case we will eventually be back into a Pilot shortage. Whole different landscape if we lose an operator or two.

Prior to this mess the route to Jazz was one of the Pathway Programs or (roughly) 800 hours in general aviation. The difference of 550 hours (usually sit at 250 hrs with a Commercial & Multi IFR) is 6 to 12 months of General Aviation flying. With your resume I personally wouldn't waste my time or money going back to School, unless you have a burning desire to sit next to some 18 year old entitled brat.
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nutlord
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by nutlord »

That's definitely an option. If I just get my PPL and slowly start building ratings and flight time while I'm still in the military, and then just get the remaining ratings upon release I might be able to start the job hunt almost immediately.

Would a regional airline look at 500-1000 hours of GA time in a 172 or something equivalent favorably in terms of employment qualifications?
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by Stu Pidasso »

An option would be to consider purchasing a single engine airplane for time building, my advice would be a tail dragger of some sort. Way more fun to fly and you will learn how to properly fly an airplane. Keep the airplane until you get enough PIC time for your ATPL.

1000 hours in a 172, are you thinking instructing time? Prior to this current mess I do not believe Jazz was interested in Instructors or time built in your own Airplane. Someone may know better. To the best of my knowledge they wanted multi engine IFR time.

Cheers
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nutlord
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by nutlord »

What would be the benefit (aside from fun) of building time in my own airplane? I'm hesitant to sink that much money into time building if it won't help me get hired later. As much fun as it will be, I'll still need to build my employability.
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Turboprops
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by Turboprops »

Stu Pidasso wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:31 pm
An option would be to consider purchasing a single engine airplane for time building, my advice would be a tail dragger of some sort. Way more fun to fly and you will learn how to properly fly an airplane. Keep the airplane until you get enough PIC time for your ATPL.

1000 hours in a 172, are you thinking instructing time? Prior to this current mess I do not believe Jazz was interested in Instructors or time built in your own Airplane. Someone may know better. To the best of my knowledge they wanted multi engine IFR time.

Cheers
Before COVID if you’re not from those pathway program, Jazz wants some multi time (officially 100, some say 250), so 1000 hr single piston time only gets you to encore or porter.
I could be wrong but my friends at Jazz told me the new hires at their class were from various 703/4 with multi turbine time, there might be a few instructors but definitely not many.
After COVID i don’t think any regional will be hiring 1000 hr instructors for a while...
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Stu Pidasso
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Re: Is Jazz Approach worth it?

Post by Stu Pidasso »

You will save a pail of money using your own Airplane verse a rental. Airplanes don't depreciate and in a lot of cases they appreciate.
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