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Instructing on my own aircraft

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dave_091

Post subject: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:59 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:06 am
Posts: 80

What are the rules regarding instructing students on my own aircraft? Can I train students on my A/C and keep it in the Private category for insurance? I'm sure a couple people must have done this. Students could save a bundle and I could breakeven on flying costs, win-win for everyone if its legal.

Thanks for all input,

Dave

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Big Pistons Forever

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:24 pm

Rank 11

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:17 am
Posts: 3067
Location: West Coast

dave_091 wrote:

I suggest you review the CARs, not to mention that this has been discussed numerous times on Searchable threads...........

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RenegadeAV8R

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:25 pm

Rank 4

Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 10:51 pm
Posts: 281

dave_091 wrote:

What are the rules regarding instructing students on my own aircraft? Can I train students on my A/C ... I could breakeven on flying costs, win-win for everyone if its legal.

Unfortunately, the short answer is no; you cannot.

Reference: CAR 406.03 (2)(b)(iii) http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#406_03

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tonyhunt

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:20 am

Rank 3

Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:06 am
Posts: 105
Location: CYRO, CYRP

RenegadeAV8R wrote:

dave_091 wrote:

What are the rules regarding instructing students on my own aircraft? Can I train students on my A/C ... I could breakeven on flying costs, win-win for everyone if its legal.

Unfortunately, the short answer is no; you cannot.
Reference: CAR 406.03 (2)(b)(iii) http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#406_03

Sure you can. How many kids do you have?

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Colonel Sanders

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:17 am

Rank 11

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:17 am
Posts: 3939
Location: Over Macho Grande

That's a brilliant idea. Someone wants flight instruction,
adopt them! Or, they adopt you.

I've had my eye on this cheerleader that I
think I could make a pretty good home for.

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Indanao

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:57 pm

Rank 5

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:25 am
Posts: 358

Guy I know did it by having all students on the C. of R.. Twenty Six Owners, and Twenty Five Students. They all got their license in Luseland, Sask. in about 1977.

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dave_091

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:04 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:06 am
Posts: 80

I can totally make this 100% legal. I can sell a person 5% of my aircraft and then they become a "Owner of the aircraft" as well!

Costs of flying are going up, less people are getting the chance to join GA, its a sad downward spiral state. I am going to do my part in keeping GA alive

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dave_091

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:06 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:06 am
Posts: 80

Indanao wrote:

Guy I know did it by having all students on the C. of R.. Twenty Six Owners, and Twenty Five Students. They all got their license in Luseland, Sask. in about 1977.

This is exactly what I am thinking... Seems like a great idea.

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Big Pistons Forever

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:37 pm

Rank 11

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:17 am
Posts: 3067
Location: West Coast

Colonel Sanders wrote:

That's a brilliant idea. Someone wants flight instruction,
adopt them! Or, they adopt you.

I've had my eye on this 17 yr old cheerleader that I
think I could make a pretty good home for.

You allready own a Pressurized twin Cessna and now you want a 17 yr old cheerleader. :shock:

You sure seem to like high maintenance birds ! :wink:

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Colonel Sanders

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:56 pm

Rank 11

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:17 am
Posts: 3939
Location: Over Macho Grande

Quote:

Guy I know did it by having all students on the C. of R.. Twenty Six Owners, and Twenty Five Students

I know a fellow who did that around 15 years ago. Perfectly legal, and it drove TC nuts. They found other ways to make his life difficult enough that it was easier for him to get an FTU OC. Or leave aviation (or Canada), which were the other obvious choices, which also would have made TC quite happy.

TC chased a friend of mine out of Canada - made his life miserable enough that he either had to leave aviation, or leave Canada. He flies in the USA, now. Superb pilot and mechanic. Represented Canada at the World Aerobatic Championship a few years back. I can't imagine why.

Anyways, in the USA, the day you get your initial instructor rating, you can legally instruct on your own aircraft. They're a little less anti-aviation and a little less pro-paperwork down there, most of the time, but they have spectacular lapses as well. You might recall a few years back, the FAA chased Bob Hoover out of the country - he moved to Australia to continue flying.

The nature of bureaucracy, I suppose.

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Cat Driver

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:36 pm

Top Poster

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:31 am
Posts: 16645

Quote:

TC chased a friend of mine out of Canada - made his life miserable enough that he either had to leave aviation, or leave Canada. He flies in the USA, now. Superb pilot and mechanic. Represented Canada at the World Aerobatic Championship a few years back. I can't imagine why,

The same thing happened to me and it all started over an application for an FTU OC.

Being forced to leave the Peoples Socialist Republic of Canada was the best thing that ever happened to me.

I now am back in the P.S.R of C. and flying privately I know the importance of protecting myself from the thugs who work for TCCA.

In fact I am once again thinking about doing some training in the Cub that I am rebuilding and if I do you can bet I will not be asking permission from TCCA.

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Bede

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Rank 10

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:52 pm
Posts: 2070

dave_091 wrote:

Indanao wrote:

Guy I know did it by having all students on the C. of R.. Twenty Six Owners, and Twenty Five Students. They all got their license in Luseland, Sask. in about 1977.

This is exactly what I am thinking... Seems like a great idea.

I think just about everyone has had that idea. While it may not be specifically illegal courts assign public interest regulations, such as the CAR's very broad interpretation. Also, this scheme would fall under a regulatory avoidance scheme which court's frown upon.

You may get away with 4 co owners training, maybe 5, maybe 6, but eventually the hammer will fall and you'll be up to your ears in legal fees when TC comes after you.

I hate this regulatory zealousness as much as the next Colonel Sanders, but unfortunately, that's the way it is. On the plus side, you can build an aerodrome pretty much anywhere in Canada and no one other than TC can say boo about it.

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Beefitarian

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:57 pm

Rank 11

Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:53 pm
Posts: 4660
Location: Basement wifi, Arches wifi or Camp ground wifi.

I'm going to jump in and bring up the insurance issue. I bet you would not even be able to find it with the help of most brokers or even the owner of the insurance company helping you read the documents of the policy.

I promise you, if you were doing anything remotely commercial with a plane insured under a private policy lawyers will void it if you need to collect.

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Colonel Sanders

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:38 pm

Rank 11

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:17 am
Posts: 3939
Location: Over Macho Grande

Quote:

this scheme would fall under a regulatory avoidance scheme which court's frown upon

How would the courts feel about Prime Minister Paul Martin's CSL ships all being registered offshore? You know, the company that got all those great government contracts when he was in office?

Quote:

Flag of convenience controversy

Throughout the 1990s, CSL Group Inc. oversaw the reflagging of several former Canadian-registered vessels which were placed under the shipping registries of nations commonly referred to as flags of convenience, where safety and labour laws were relaxed to be more business-friendly.

On January 28, 2004 the federal government, in response to opposition party and media enquiries, revealed that CSL Group Inc. had received $162 million in federal government contracts, grants and loans since Paul Martin became Minister of Finance in 1993.

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mcrit

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:07 am

Rank (9)

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:01 am
Posts: 1961

Now, now Col. We don't want any of the wrong political ideas in this forum.

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Indanao

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:17 pm

Rank 5

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:25 am
Posts: 358

If students buy an airplane they can hire an Instructor to teach them on it. For an Instructor to buy an airplane and put multiple students on the C. of R. and then teach them on it is frowned upon as running an illegal business. ( Just my experience with the government interpretation in past cases. )

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dave_091

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:57 am

Rank 2

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:06 am
Posts: 80

I think this stinks!!! Our Gov't should be more GA friendly. I'm a hard head when it comes to things like this. Legally I wouldn't be breaking any laws of any nature if I sold out shares of my aircraft and trained people on it. People have a desire to fly, they want to be able to do it and afford to be able to do it.

So How did TC chase these guys out of canada?
If I put through maybe 3 or 4 people per year and keep it small would that send bells ringing at TC?

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Colonel Sanders

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:15 am

Rank 11

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:17 am
Posts: 3939
Location: Over Macho Grande

Quote:

Our Gov't should be more GA friendly

Good luck with that.

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trey kule

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:34 am

Rank 11

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:09 am
Posts: 3130

Dave....It is far far easier to stay out of trouble than get out of trouble.
TC has a long memory... A very long memory.
And what you are trying to do is run an FTU without proper licensing. Spin it however you will. Complain about all the hoops one has to jump through. Compare it to the US... But you are still trying to set up and run a flight school.

Now go back to my first sentence.....remember that if you decide to move ahead.
Like others I have had my run in with TC, and they do not play fair, ethical, or even honest in some cases, if they think you are trying simply to skirt regulations...And they have money, manpower, and time on their side.

If you want to buy a plane and teach flying in Canada, jump through the hoops. You will find that your biggest problem is not TC initially, but the FTUs that have jumped through all the hoops, hired CFIs, and run a legitimate operation..They tend not to like what you are plannng on doing, and all it takes is one of them to complain to TC...That is usually how it starts, I am afraid.

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dave_091

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:21 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:06 am
Posts: 80

Okay, let me try something. Lets say I actually do not want to run a service, but a actaul no profit involved aircraft split ownership. I want to donate my knowledge to people who are less fortunate. Hands down, fully honest, no profit involved, aircraft fractional ownership. If the taxman became involved they could check our books and see that all transfer of funds is for running the aircraft only. All "flight training" in the co-owned aircraft is done as a donation of time. Completely non-profit, and completely honest about it too.

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trey kule

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:40 pm

Rank 11

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:09 am
Posts: 3130

They used to call those flying clubs.. And as long as the club is licensed there should be no problem
I do not think the issue of profit has any effect on the licensing requirments. Tax issues and TC compliance are separate when it comes to running a business. And, it just may depend on who ends up with the eventual ownership of the plane..Nothing wrong with leasing it to a flying club at all that I am aware of.
The problem occurs when someone effectively is trying to use their own plane to provide instruction without being properly licensed. And the multiple ownership idea is really trying to get around that...
It is a noble thing that you are trying to provide aid to the less fortunate by undercutting the prices of the FTUs who have all the expenses that are involved in running a legitamate business. I wonder if they will feel the same way.

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Colonel Sanders

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:56 pm

Rank 11

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:17 am
Posts: 3939
Location: Over Macho Grande

Quote:

TC has a long memory

Once TC decides you are a "bad person", you are in
for a lifetime of hassle and problems.

Don't go there. It's just too painful, and is a life sentence.

Not only that, it's a generational sentence. A TC doctor
told me that TC took a run at my father because they
were "angry at me". And people around the airport tell
my kid to either change his last name, or leave the country
and fly elsewhere.

I keep wondering what they will do next. Will a car full
of TC inspectors stop at my girls grade school and rough
them up at recess?

It's just too weird. I even got a Federal Court Order
"enjoining" the Minister of Transport from this silliness,
but they just ignored it.

You piss off TC at your own peril.

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dave_091

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:22 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:06 am
Posts: 80

Colonel: I'm sorry TC has gone that far with you. To me, that doesn't make any sense.

The flying club route seems to be the way to go. I haven't looked into the rules at all yet regarding flying clubs but this may just seem like the way to do it.
I will learn from others experience's and not repeat anything that could cause personal hardship to myself or my family. I had NO IDEA TC would go to such lengths to make people's lives so hard.
So yes, I will do some research into Not for profit flying clubs and see where this leads me.
I am very thankful for all the information, it has without a doubt saved me from learning the hard way.

So, about legal flying clubs... any experiences with these?

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Colonel Sanders

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:15 pm

Rank 11

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:17 am
Posts: 3939
Location: Over Macho Grande

Quote:

I had NO IDEA TC would go to such lengths

TC is a funny bird. There are some incredibly good, helpful
people there - almost always low-ranking. And there are
some incredible weiners there - almost always high-ranking.

This is a very popular topic for people who study large organizations,
both public and private sector. What has been concluded time
and time again is that sociopaths invariably rise to the top.

Examples abound, and are too numerous to list here.

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Bede

Post subject: Re: Instructing on my own aircraft

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:54 pm

Rank 10

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:52 pm
Posts: 2070

Colonel Sanders wrote:

Quote:

this scheme would fall under a regulatory avoidance scheme which court's frown upon

How would the courts feel about Prime Minister Paul Martin's CSL ships all being registered offshore? You know, the company that got all those great government contracts when he was in office?

Quote:

See Col., you haven't figured this out yet. I was talking about us small pions. Regulatory avoidance is OK if you're rich and can afford the lawyers. :smt040

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