Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

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hydrographer2004
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Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by hydrographer2004 »

Hi everyone,

I currently live in the UK and have a PR visa for Canada and want to come over and gain my CPL over there. Currently thinking Calgary area at present - but happy to change for a decent flight school.

Just wondered what peoples thoughts were on purchasing a plane yourself for training. My thoughts were that it might be cheaper than renting a plane plus you can build hours quicker and also can sell it afterwards. I am keen to build hours quickly and thought that once I gain CPL that I can fly my own plane whilst searching for a job to maintain skills and continue to learn.

So my questions are:

1) Is this a terrible idea?

2) How much cash are you talking about for a small plane that is decent enough for training in?

3) Are they easy to sell after

I am selling my small business in the UK so will have enough cash to pay for training in one go with a training institute - but not a lot left after.

I have seen some planes for circa $20-30k - however they are ancient.

Thanks! :D
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by CpnCrunch »

hydrographer2004 wrote:Hi everyone,

1) Is this a terrible idea?
Nope, it's a good idea. Buy a Cessna 150 (unless you want to pay more for something more capable and faster) that has flown regularly, and get a good prepurchase inspection.
2) How much cash are you talking about for a small plane that is decent enough for training in?
Around C$20k for a nice C150, or about $15k if you don't mind an over TBO engine, crappy paint, tired interior and ancient avionics.
3) Are they easy to sell after
It depends. If it's priced properly and it's a desirable model, it will sell. Over TBO engine can make it difficult to sell, even though it isn't necessarily a problem.

I have seen some planes for circa $20-30k - however they are ancient.

Thanks! :D
You'll get a good 150 or an older 172 for that money. No matter what you buy, it's going to be ancient! All the new planes cost US$300k and upwards. The new X-Cub looks very nice, but even that is $300k.

Insurance for a cheap plane is around $1000 (although perhaps more if you're a student pilot?), and annual maintenance maybe $2k if not much breaks. Tie-down or hangars can be free up to about $500/month or more depending on your airport.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

The other side of the "save by buying your own airplane instead of renting" idea, is the story of a fellow I met once that bought a C 150 with an on condition engine to use to build up his time. It was pretty ugly with chipped faded paint and a trashed interior but it "only" cost him 18 K. Unfortunately after about 20 hours the engine started running very roughly. When the AME pulled the screen it was full of metal, the engine was toast. His AME found another high time engine but the engine mount was cracked and the carb air box needed a repair etc etc.

He was lucky in that it only cost him 10 K to get back in the air (an overhauled engine installed would have been over 20 K), then his radio died and the radio shop said it was too old to repair. He got another unit off E-bay but it never worked, then he lucked out and found a working unit for $1000 but he lost a month of summer flying screwing around, then he needed a new shimmy damper, then new brake discs, then a new elevator trim cable.........He finally finished his CPL and then tried to sell his airplane.

A year later it was still for sale as it was just another one of the many beater ugly 150's on the market. By then he was desperate so he took a low ball 12 K just to get some money back. Bottom line when all his costs were totaled the aircraft cost him $ 295 an hour plus what he paid for his instructor........

Finding a good small aircraft is becoming harder and harder as most of what is for sale is junk that has been neglected for years. If you go this route it is absolutely imperative you get good advice. Ignore any advice from someone who has not owned an aircraft, preferably several, they will not have a clue. Get a good AME working for you to do a pre-purchase on anything you are thinking of buying and be prepared to spend at least 500 dollars, it will be worth it in the long run.

Even if you are determined to buy an airplane my recommendation is to do a private at a good school on one of their airplanes. Cultivate the mechanics who are working on the schools airplanes and learn as much as you can about the reality of aircraft maintenance, how much aircraft parts costs, what never breaks and what is always breaking.
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photofly
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by photofly »

Another factor to bear in mind: it's easy to spend so long looking for the perfect airplane that you never get any training done. If your goal is to train, don't get diverted to a different goal of "getting a bargain airplane to train in".

On the subject of asking flight school AMEs about maintenance costs: some or most of them have never looked after any private aircraft and vastly overestimate the regulatory burden and hence cost of maintaining one.
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by lazyeight »

If I were to do it all over again I would have gotten an airplane. A cheap old taildragger (luscombe, taylorcraft, 120/140) and started PPL day one with it. Not CPL onward... at that point it's debatable if it's worth it.
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by PilotDAR »

I bought a 150 29 years ago, post PPL, and I could not be happier with that decision.

A few side benefits of ownership are that you can take the plane where and when you want to, with no daily minimums, and it's always there when you want it. It will never be unavailable when you want to fly.
when all his costs were totaled the aircraft cost him $ 295 an hour
Yes, this is a risk, but it can be mitigated by flying the plane a whole bunch more. I too invested in my plane, and if I sold shortly afterward, it would have been expensive by the hour. But, once the bills are paid, you're flying for gas cost, and that's about it.

The OP mentions living in the UK. Be sure to understand the requirements for residency/citizenship to own a Canadian aircraft.
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by CpnCrunch »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: He was lucky in that it only cost him 10 K to get back in the air (an overhauled engine installed would have been over 20 K), then his radio died and the radio shop said it was too old to repair. He got another unit off E-bay but it never worked, then he lucked out and found a working unit for $1000 but he lost a month of summer flying screwing around, then he needed a new shimmy damper, then new brake discs, then a new elevator trim cable.........He finally finished his CPL and then tried to sell his airplane.
I'm curious if this plane had been sitting neglected before he bought it, and if he did a proper preflight inspection on it. It sounds quite unlucky...
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by photofly »

Radios are always repairable, usually by an avionics shop that has no interest in trying to sell you the latest and greatest; for the shimmy damper did he get the nose scissor shimmed? Check the bushings? Steering collar play? Rare to need to replace the damper when refilling them and changing the o- rings is so easy. Control cables are both easily replaced and inspectable pre-purchase as are brake discs, and even engines. So one has to ask how much responsibility for his own experience this guy bears. Nobody should expect to buy even a simple airplane and fly it without maintenance for very long. As PilotDAR says, once you've fixed everything, the aircraft is yours and a keeper.

If the engine was "toast" - then which bits? Did he think to check where the metal was coming from? You don't need to discard the whole engine. All the parts are replaceable individually, if you're on a budget, you don't need to zero-time it with an overhaul.

If he was unlucky, it could just as much be the company he kept after the purchase.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

CpnCrunch wrote:
Big Pistons Forever wrote: He was lucky in that it only cost him 10 K to get back in the air (an overhauled engine installed would have been over 20 K), then his radio died and the radio shop said it was too old to repair. He got another unit off E-bay but it never worked, then he lucked out and found a working unit for $1000 but he lost a month of summer flying screwing around, then he needed a new shimmy damper, then new brake discs, then a new elevator trim cable.........He finally finished his CPL and then tried to sell his airplane.
I'm curious if this plane had been sitting neglected before he bought it, and if he did a proper preflight inspection on it. It sounds quite unlucky...
The problem is that a lot of the airplanes at the lower end of the market are well used and because parts are so expensive there is a great temptation to let things go to try to get a bit more life out of them. This is particularly true for engines. There is a reason why most of the C 150's for sale are at or over TBO. To over haul the engine, including the labour to re and re it plus the inevitable other repairs needed is going to be in the 25+K range. But you will never recover that money if you do it. So it becomes a crap shoot. That over TBO engine could go for another 1000 hours or die on you in the 10. The trick is to figure out what airplanes have high time but healthy engines over the ones that have high time engines that are probably on their last legs. This where expert advice is really useful.

My first airplane was a Cessna 150. It had pretty ugly paint and a worn interior and it had a fairly high time engine but crucially it was a Continental re-manufactured engine with a zero time from re-manufacture engine logbook and a pretty good maintenance history recorded in the tech log. I bought it for the same price as several other 150's that were for sale but with engines on their third cheapo overhaul and suspect maintenance logs. I had 4 trouble free years of flying and sold it for $ 2500 more than I paid for it. I very much doubt the buyers of the others did as well.

Something to think about. A 2016 Cessna 172 costs 415,000 US dollars to buy . A 1976 Cessna 172 cost about 40,000 USD to buy. Most of the parts are the same or very similar except Cessna prices them as if they were going on the 415,000 $ airplane not the 40,000 $ dollar one....

There are good buys out there but you absolutely have to get expert advice or you could easily get into a world of hurt. Sadly many airplanes you see tied down in the grass at the edge of the airport are beyond economic repair. If the owner gave it to you, you would still spend more getting it airworthy then it would be worth.
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Radios are always repairable
The radio was a Radair. It was an early 1970's brand that lasted a few years and then went bankrupt, so no it was not repairable because 25 years later there was no parts.
for the shimmy damper did he get the nose scissor shimmed? Check the bushings? Steering collar play?
.

The last owner wasn't willing to spend any money so none of the above was done and so every thing was so worn an buggered an especially bad shimmy episode bent the shaft of the shimmy dampener and basically destroyed it.
If the engine was "toast" - then which bits? Did he think to check where the metal was coming from? You don't need to discard the whole engine. All the parts are replaceable individually, if you're on a budget, you don't need to zero-time it with an overhaul.
The piston skirt on one piston had partially disintegrated. Significant metal contamination had gone through the engine and the screen was full of metal. The engine was not going to get signed out without a bulk inspection. I this case the guy was quite lucky because his AME found him a serviceable, albeit high time engine for $ 6500 and so he was back in the air for $ 10,000 when the dust settled. In this case it would have been very unlikely to have been found under any normal level of pre-purchase inspection


I feel it is important that people understand that buying an airplane to train in is not a sure thing way to save money.

It can be advantageous monetarily and airplane ownership is a great way to truly learn about operating and maintaining and aircraft, but I won't back away from my strongly held belief that inexperienced pilots absolutely need expert advice before buying an aircraft, expert advice that is actually pretty hard to find ......and even after getting that expert advice there is still a possibility that the 45 year old Cessna 150 you are thinking of buying could give you huge unexpected maintenance bills at any time

That does not mean don't buy an airplane to train in, just make sure you understand the risks as well as the benefits ....
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by photofly »

Um... did he pay $500 for an inspection? One might reasonably expect that an oil screen "full of metal" (your words) - a bent shimmy damper, and a radio that nobody has ever heard of, worn brake discs (I mean good lord, they're out there in the open, you can check them yourself before each flight, let alone before buying the goddamn aircraft) and frayed control cable would raise a few flags with even an AME who doesn't consider him or herself to be an expert.

I agree with your emboldened point that old aircraft can throw up unexpected maintenance requirements (frankly, so can new ones) but your "I know a guy" example isn't everyone's experience.

BTW- even the gold plated flown-in-on-their-own-first-class-seats Lord shimmy dampers are $1k, and brake discs are $250. Anyone buying an airplane - of any description - should budget for several $1k+ repairs in the first few years. That's just what owning an airplane means.
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by PilotDAR »

It sounds like BPF's example is one end of the scale, which can certainly exist, but is also generally detectable. The buyer could have had an effective inspection done on the plane, and found much of this before choosing to purchase. That need not made the concept of buying your trainer sound like a bad idea, just do your due diligence!
......and even after getting that expert advice there is still a possibility that the 45 year old Cessna 150 you are thinking of buying could give you huge unexpected maintenance bills at any time
is true. But, I defy anyone to be able to spend so much money repairing an old 150/152/172 to the point that it costs what a new 172 costs! Yes, you can make a big bill modifying it up, but keeping an old basic trainer airworthy can be done for less than cost of a new one.
If the owner gave it to you, you would still spend more getting it airworthy then it would be worth.
I know this was tongue in cheek, but there is something to it. I have seen whole aircraft sold for near scarp prices. Some damaged or disassembled. The right person making the right investment gets a good plane out of it. But, that investment will not be returned to the purchaser after only a couple of hundred hours flying. Think long term, maybe you want to keep the plane for a "long time", and fly the value out of it for yourself.

Renting to train to the PPL level has very predictable costs. Post PPL, whatcha going to do? Keep renting at that same cost? Renting a training aircraft, with limited choice as to where and when you take it? If you're happy with this, rent. Ownership offers more freedom, and the associated risks, you don't get anything for nothing. There is a minimum cost to fly, as the people upon whom you must depend to keep the plane flying expect to earn a fair living like anyone else.

Canada has burdened itself with a silly complicated and expensive airworthiness system, which extends much too far beyond simply good wrenching and lubrication of aircraft - way too much paperwork of very little added value. But, that's the price we have to pay to fly freely. So many counties simply do not enable GA at all, or at a bearable cost. If you can afford to smoke, drink and watch cable TV in Canada, you can afford to fly modestly, and probably own - as long as you surround yourself with wise people to help you avoid the pitfalls which are out there.
and a radio [Radair] that nobody has ever heard of
Yup, that's me again, the nobody! :wink: I've flown with Radair radios, and no, they are not worth fixing. But then most radios from the '60's and 70's are no longer worth fixing either. Some things just get obsolete. Would you fix the 8 track in the used car you bought? A purchaser of used aircraft has to realize that some avionics are just not worth any repair investment - replace.
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

I agree the example I provided was one end of the spectrum. I would suggest my C 150 was the other end. A bit of an ugly duckling but one that had been properly maintained with a good engine that I got for a very reasonable price and gave me 4 years of inexpensive and trouble free flying.

The difference was I was a working commercial pilot so I had some airplane smarts, and I had the assistance of a very wise and experienced AME friend who was able to give me an unbiased appraisal of the aircraft.

The other guy was a brand new pilot who did not do his homework and paid a very heavy price to learn.

One of the key mistakes he made was to not do a pre-purchase inspection because the airplane had a "fresh annual" done by the seller :roll:

Like I said earlier I am not saying to the OP, don't buy an airplane to build time and then sell, I am saying do your homework. One of the things that give me a bit of pause is that many of the guys that are saying what a great idea it is to buy a time builder have never owned an airplane and therefore IMO probably don't understand the reality of airplane ownership

My advice to anyone contemplating what the OP is considering is go to your local airport on a sunny weekend and talk to some of the owners that are out flying small aircraft. You will get a good range of experiences and opinions about the ownership experience and that may help you decide. It is also a great way to find aircraft.

My little C 150 was not advertised for sale but my AME friend remarked that I should talk to the owner because when he was chatting with him he remarked that he wasn't using it as much as he used to and thought maybe it is getting time to sell it. I approached him with a offer and after a bit of back and forth it was mine :D
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

photofly wrote:Um... did he pay $500 for an inspection? One might reasonably expect that an oil screen "full of metal" (your words) .
As I just posted he did not do a pre purchase inspection. However the engine expired after he had flown it 20 hours so it is entirely possible that the oil screen was clear at the time he bought it so it would not have been obvious that the piston was about to self destruct.

I had a Cessna 150 engine (not mine) have the oil pump drive gear shed some teeth in flight. By the time I landed with the engine shut down windmilling with no oil pressure, the engine was badly damaged. The engine went from fine to a 20 K repair bill in about 5 minutes. Again this is the worst possible case scenario but bad things do happen, the difference in this case was the flying school was stuck with the big bill not me.

Again I have provided a few data points of actual events and circumstances good and bad. If they were of any help to any of the readers of this thread then good. If not I have only wasted a few minutes of your life :wink:
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by CpnCrunch »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:One of the things that give me a bit of pause is that many of the guys that are saying what a great idea it is to buy a time builder have never owned an airplane and therefore IMO probably don't understand the reality of airplane ownership
Are you talking in general, or here? Everyone on this thread (except perhaps lazyeight, who I don't know) is either a current or former airplane owner.

I didn't actually do a prepurchase inspection on my 172, as it had flown regularly and had had fairly extensive restoration in recent years. It turned out ok, but I would do certain things differently if I was purchasing again. For peace of mind I would want an engine overhaul at a reputable shop (or ideally factory remanufacture) within at least the past 20 years.

I see you can buy a 1000SMOH O-200A for US$6500 on barnstormers, so if your over TBO engine dies you can just replace it relatively cheaply and it will increase the value of your plane. You'll still be down, but nowhere near $20k.

It's like any old vehicle - there's always the risk that something expensive will go wrong. If the transmission on your car dies, how much will that cost to replace?

http://www.transmissionrepaircostguide.com/#cost

AMEs don't typically charge any more than car dealerships for labour, and airplane parts for bugsmashers are relatively inexpensive if you buy McFarlane parts.
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

CpnCrunch wrote:
Big Pistons Forever wrote:One of the things that give me a bit of pause is that many of the guys that are saying what a great idea it is to buy a time builder have never owned an airplane and therefore IMO probably don't understand the reality of airplane ownership
Are you talking in general, or here? Everyone on this thread (except perhaps lazyeight, who I don't know) is either a current or former airplane owner.
No this was meant as a general comment about what I have seen on aviation boards, not the people on this thread in particular. However I would like to note that I have owned 5 different airplane over the last 24 years so I think I have a pretty good idea of the actual costs of owning an airplane. Everyone I know that bought their first airplane ended up spending more in the first year of ownership then they had planned. Maybe I am the exception, but I have seen several people buy airplanes and then have to drop serious unexpected money into them for repairs that did not appreciably increase the value of the airplane.
I
I see you can buy a 1000SMOH O-200A for US$6500 on barnstormers, so if your over TBO engine dies you can just replace it relatively cheaply and it will increase the value of your plane. You'll still be down, but nowhere near $20k.
Well $ 6500 is around $ 8300 Cdn plus you have to pay tax and shipping which is going to be a least another $1000, plus the labour for the re and re which is a minimum of 10 hours assuming the AME doesn't find any other things to be fixed which is pretty unlikely. so that is another $ 1000 bucks plus $ 500 for miscellaneous hardware and the bill starts at 10.5 K. If the engine mount is cracked, or the exhaust needs attention, or the carb air box is cracked, all common issues on old C 150's, then the bill goes up. Depending on what happened you may be able to get some money back on a core but probably only around $ 2000

So absolute best case you are out of pocket $ 8000. Worst case $12000 + if a bunch of other issues have to dealt with as part of the engine change. The bad news: If you bought the aircraft for 20 K it will still be worth 20 K.

A more likely scenario is cylinder work. Replace 2 cylinders and the bill will $ 4000. Your 20 K airplane will still be worth 20 K

The bottom line is if the aircraft needs any significant repairs during the time you own it then you would probably have been better off renting. However airplane ownership is still a very worthwhile experience as you avoid all of the considerable hassles of renting and you will learn a ton about airplanes that you would likely never get just renting at a flying school.

So if you want to go this route make sure that you understand the full cost of ownership, have the financial resources to deal with an unexpected bill if you are unlucky and make sure you have the airplane thoroughly vetted by your AME.

Finally it may sound cynical but don't believe anything the seller or his AME says, get an independent inspection.
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by CpnCrunch »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: The bad news: If you bought the aircraft for 20 K it will still be worth 20 K.
It depends on the hours beforehand. If you reduce the engine from 1800 to 1000 hours, you increase the value by US$9k according to Vref. However Vref is giving a $6500 retail value for an 1800SMOH 7000TT 150H, which seems unrealistically low. I think realistically you would increase the value by maybe C$5k by replacing the run-out engine with a half-time one.
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

CpnCrunch wrote:

It depends on the hours beforehand. If you reduce the engine from 1800 to 1000 hours, you increase the value by US$9k according to Vref. However Vref is giving a $6500 retail value for an 1800SMOH 7000TT 150H, which seems unrealistically low. I think realistically you would increase the value by maybe C$5k by replacing the run-out engine with a half-time one.
I think you might be a bit optimistic to get 5 K more. One thing that will change however is that you will find the half time airplane much easier to sell. Even if you do get the 5 K extra you will still be out of pocket at least another 5000. That is a big hit if you are only buying it to time build and then flip it.

There is a reason why 80 % of the privately owned C 150's for sale have engines near or over the TBO. The owners want to get rid of it before the engine dies. A half time airplane will stand out of the pack but people don't want to pay more for it, instead they will take their chances on the high time machine, or at least that has been my observation.

I am curious as to why you think you have a better idea of aircraft values than Vref ?

Vref reflects actual selling price averages, not what is advertised. IMO most airplanes advertised in Canada are unrealistically high and the ones that actual get sold go for much less than the buyer was advertising for. I know of a recent similar aircraft that was advertised for 18 K and sold for 12 K. A $ 6500 US airplane bought in the States would be the same or likely more by the time you got it here and finished the import. I think this is really the level where the market is, but I would like to hear what others have experienced shopping for 150's in Canada.

Anyway I truly believe the sad reality is a high time 1960's C 150 with a runout engine, poor paint and interior is basically a throw away airplane. Unless it is a labour of love you could never make it nice and get anywhere near what you put in to it.

The flip side is if you find one that has been done, grab it with both arms as it will be terrific value.
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by CpnCrunch »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
CpnCrunch wrote:
I am curious as to why you think you have a better idea of aircraft values than Vref ?
Apparently you think you have a better idea of values than Vref too, as you don't seem to believe Vref's $11/hr value for engine SMOH time either :)

From what I can see, C150 values haven't really changed at all during the recent depreciation of the C$. Canada is a different market than the USA, and it's not really cost-effective to import such a cheap plane, which means that the value of the US$ doesn't have as much effect on a C150 as it would for a 182. Most 150s are priced in C$ and the prices still seem to be between $15k to $25k for something that isn't a rust bucket (i.e. same as 3 years ago when US$ was 30% lower).
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Re: Is it worth getting your own plane for training?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

CpnCrunch wrote:

From what I can see, C150 values haven't really changed at all during the recent depreciation of the C$. Canada is a different market than the USA, and it's not really cost-effective to import such a cheap plane, which means that the value of the US$ doesn't have as much effect on a C150 as it would for a 182. Most 150s are priced in C$ and the prices still seem to be between $15k to $25k for something that isn't a rust bucket (i.e. same as 3 years ago when US$ was 30% lower).
I think you are right. The traditional airplane value relationships seem to break down at the very bottom of the market.

The part I admit I find puzzling is that the prices don't seem to reflect some pretty significant differences in value. For instance I know of one C 150 with almost new paint, a very nice interior, a new Garmin Comm and Transponder, an 800 hr engine and a ton of refurbished components, went for around 26 K after being on the market for 8 Months. Yet to turn a typical 15 K 1800 hr SMOH ratty C-150 into an equivalent condition airplane would mean spending at least 25 K.

To me this airplane represented screaming value yet it was a hard sell as it was apparently viewed by prospective purchasers as too expensive.
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