Flight Instructing - questions on non standard options

[stol701]

Hi,

I had my flight instructor class 4 rating some time ago but it is now expired. At the time I tried to find a part time job. For whatever reason I got stuck at the idea that I had to at least pay for gas, etc. So even though I tried at a few schools and it was for a part time, it was still for a normal paying position.

But I am thinking now that I don't have to make money. What I do 9 to 5 is paying much more than I can ever make as instructor and is actually interesting... tolerable.

So here are two options that I would like to throw here and see if you feel either of them has any touch with reality.

1. Buy a decent $120,000 Cessna 172 and find a Class 1 or Class 2 instructor who wants to sign up for being the chief pilot for a flight school. Then both of you fly as much as you want and if money from the flying lessons does not pay for the airplane we pay the remainder with own money... If the plane is doing 25-30h/m it should be around the $0 point (please correct if significantly wrong).
2. Find a part time instructing job for no money (or even donating $10/h to a random student's license) in an existing school.

I've just read "421.66 Renewal of Flight Instructor Rating" and I don't see anything explicitly requiring additional flight training toward the flight instructor rating when the original rating has expired more than 4 years ago. The only thing I see is that if it expired more than 24 month ago I need to take both the written and the flight tests. Do you know if there is anything about having to go through the actual flight training again?

Thanks

[ahramin]

I'm not sure I understand option 2. Are you offering to pay a student to teach them? If so, how do you think the other instructors are going to feel about that?

[trey kule]

What the regulations say, and how the typical class 1 interprets them, can be very very far apart.

Depending on your actual instructor time and currency, you could look at pretty much a complete do over of your instructor rating. And I know that is not what the regulations say.

[Bede]

Hi,

I had my flight instructor class 4 rating some time ago but it is now expired. At the time I tried to find a part time job. For whatever reason I got stuck at the idea that I had to at least pay for gas, etc. So even though I tried at a few schools and it was for a part time, it was still for a normal paying position.

But I am thinking now that I don't have to make money. What I do 9 to 5 is paying much more than I can ever make as instructor and is actually interesting... tolerable.

So here are two options that I would like to throw here and see if you feel either of them has any touch with reality.

1. Buy a decent $120,000 Cessna 172 and find a Class 1 or Class 2 instructor who wants to sign up for being the chief pilot for a flight school. Then both of you fly as much as you want and if money from the flying lessons does not pay for the airplane we pay the remainder with own money... If the plane is doing 25-30h/m it should be around the $0 point (please correct if significantly wrong).
2. Find a part time instructing job for no money (or even donating $10/h to a random student's license) in an existing school.

I've just read "421.66 Renewal of Flight Instructor Rating" and I don't see anything explicitly requiring additional flight training toward the flight instructor rating when the original rating has expired more than 4 years ago. The only thing I see is that if it expired more than 24 month ago I need to take both the written and the flight tests. Do you know if there is anything about having to go through the actual flight training again?

Thanks

Perhaps you're trolling and I am taking the bait. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and reply.

Do you ever watch Dragon's Den? You know those guys that come in with a really dumb idea and everyone knows it except the guy presenting. I think this may be one of those situations. Then Kevin O'Leary tells the guy how dumb his idea. He sounds mean, but he really doesn't want the guy to blow anymore of his money on his idea.

I'm a pretty moderate guy, but I'm going to tell you straight up that you should abandon your idea's ASAP for a number of reasons. I'm not trying to insult you, but am trying to get you to avoid blowing a huge amount of money on a lost cause. If it requires hurting your feelings, than so be it.

Here is why you should abandon your plans:
1) You thought you had to pay for gas as a class 4 instructor? Am I reading you correct or did I misread? This is obviously not the case. Why would you even think this? I would be surprised if a student pilot thought this was the case let alone an instructor. Leave the instructing to those with a better understanding of the CARs.

2) Starting a school requires more than just signing up a class 1 or 2. You need a building, an agreement with an AMO, an approved maintenance schedule, and approved maintenance control manual, training syllabus, insurance, classrooms and teaching aids, TC inspections, an approved Person Responsible for Maintenance. It's a lot of work and you will not find any class 1 or 2 instructors to do it. Reputable schools have a hard enough time finding class 1 or 2 instructors.

3) You say "we" as in you and the class 2 instructor? So not only are you going to find a class 2 instructor to work for free, but he'll also kick in a bit of cash to finance your airplane?

4) Break even would likely be closer to 60 hours.

5) This may set a new low for AvCanada. There's the guy who talks on this site where to get a type rating. Below him is the guy who want to work for free. Apparently there is an even lower rung on the ladder: the guy who will pay people to fly them. Not only do you want to fly for free, you want to pay for someone else's training. What do you do for a living? How about I offer to pay your clients money on top of working for free. Let's see how long you have a job. Clearly, the student is getting what they're paying for.

6) Depending on how long you've been out of it, you may be doing a lot of training before a class 1 will recommend you for a flight test. I suspect it will be a lot of training.

7) You mention what you do is actually interesting. So that would imply that instructing is not interesting. Fair enough, but why would you possibly want to instruct? It's not for the money, and you likely don't find it interesting. Leave the instructing to people who enjoy it. You mentioned you have a decent job with a decent pay. Why do you want to instruct? Stick with what you do, buy yourself an airplane and have fun flying.

Anyways, don't take the criticism personally, but please come to your senses.

[zulutime]

Judging from your original post I would have to agree completely with Bede's comments. You have either misrepresented yourself here or you do not have a good grasp of the industry. Either way, please do what you do 9 to 5 and fly for fun on the side.

Curious though, what are your long term goals and aspirations? How many hours do you currently have? From reading your OP something is not adding up here!

[Shiny Side Up]

1) You thought you had to pay for gas as a class 4 instructor? Am I reading you correct or did I misread? This is obviously not the case. Why would you even think this? I would be surprised if a student pilot thought this was the case let alone an instructor.

Sadly, this is more common than you think. There is an ever present concept that plagues some of the customer base that feel that since what we do is "fun" that we do it for free, or that we'll do it under any circumstances. Frequently, when a student asks you "if you're ever going to be a commercial pilot" its because they think of instructing, or sometimes anything to do with little airplanes, as a hobby that we do in our off time.

This is also I should say not the first time I've encountered this, there is a depressing amount of folks who have tried, or are trying to come up with schemes like this. Personally I think one of the roots is how the line is frequently blurred when it comes to a flight school and a flying club. A club sounds more like a bunch of buddies who will help each other out, hence if there's an instructor in the group, he will help guys out as a buddy to ensure that flying goes on. Ok for minor details in a club, but something that does not belong in a business.

5) This may set a new low for AvCanada. There's the guy who talks on this site where to get a type rating. Below him is the guy who want to work for free. Apparently there is an even lower rung on the ladder: the guy who will pay people to fly them. Not only do you want to fly for free, you want to pay for someone else's training.

You might be surprised, or not, to know how many come up with all sorts of schemes like this. Again, it has to do with the perception that little airplanes aren't important, nor what you do in them, its just about doing what you have to do to get to the big show. Unfortunately this fellow would probably have a large customer base of people stepping over their own mother for this smoking deal on flight training.

[stol701]

Perhaps you're trolling and I am taking the bait. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and reply.

Do you ever watch Dragon's Den? ...

Anyways, don't take the criticism personally, but please come to your senses.

You got me wrong on too many aspects but that's ok. I know that I don't express myself very clear sometimes.

I meant to make enough money to pay for the gas of my car going back and forth to the airport And I really don't want to pay for someone's training... just to help them out a little. And it won't be for every single student who goes in the school... Most likely for just that one student that can't quite make it to fly once every two weeks... just a little help for them to by a chart or that brick of a reference book.

I don't see at all why you think instructing is not interesting for me. It's true that I have not been able to turn it into a profession and compromised it in favour of having a more "stable" work that makes it easier for me to be with my kids and all that, but I'm not going to go as far as to say that I don't have an interest in instructing. I just don't have interest in "only instructing". And even this is not true, as I actually do have an interest in this, but can not afford it financially.

But you are probably right in many ways too. That's why in the title of the thread it says "non standard"... and I thought it will be a strong enough implication that the options are already known to be "iffy". I first flew airplanes 25 years ago... gliders... and then 10 years ago got my Instructor's license in US where freelancing is OK straight out of the exam, but had to come in Canada for papers. I got my class 4 mostly as a statement as I knew I don't have good chances to make it here with the heavier bureaucracy. But I am still not ready to give up and to come to my senses... whatever that means. I'll probably explore the option of instructing on ulralights. I really only need 1 or 2 students a year and I'll get what I need.

Thanks for taking the time though.

[stol701]

...Unfortunately this fellow would probably have a large customer base of people stepping over their own mother for this smoking deal on flight training.

Damn... I didn't expect this to get such a negative reaction. I guess people who do it for money and business, as you say, are too uptight and it's already a difficult way to make money. But I don't mean to rob the school from getting the money from the student.... It's just that I won't care about the money. If the school owner or other instructors want to put them in a bank and then buy coffee or something that is ok.

I am really only looking for how to consistently make something like 10h of flying a month, while flight instructing. I love flight instructing. I won't consider doing it as a hobby. I won't even want to fly with just about anyone who wants to fly only so they pay less money (provided I give them a break of 10 bucks). I definitely don't want large customer base. I don't want any student that I treat as a customer. They may be a customer to the school, but I want them to be a student for me.

I guess I'll have to take my inquiry to a real flight school and talk with someone in person. I expect it won't make for a much different response but there is nothing to loose anyway.

[stol701]

What the regulations say, and how the typical class 1 interprets them, can be very very far apart.

Depending on your actual instructor time and currency, you could look at pretty much a complete do over of your instructor rating. And I know that is not what the regulations say.

That's what I was afraid of... unfortunately I understand it and have to agree with it I think my only real option is to go do some weekend flight instructing in US until I get a few more flight instructing hours and then just covert it straight for a Class III here in Canada, and then do free-lancing whenever possible. Or just keep doing weekends in US. Not my ideal option at all but probably that's what will be most realistic.

[stol701]

Judging from your original post I would have to agree completely with Bede's comments. You have either misrepresented yourself here or you do not have a good grasp of the industry. Either way, please do what you do 9 to 5 and fly for fun on the side.

Curious though, what are your long term goals and aspirations? How many hours do you currently have? From reading your OP something is not adding up here!

Long term aspirations is to have enough money to get an airplane and enough money to actually fly it once I have it. That's unfortunately not looking good so far. I have about 500h but done over 20+ years... so yes, it doesn't add up very well. And I have definitely misrepresented myself, thank you for allowing for that option. I want to fly and to instruct for fun too... I don't think these are necessarily mutually exclusive... and I don't think that "for fun" equals to approaching it in a non professional way.

[stol701]

I'm not sure I understand option 2. Are you offering to pay a student to teach them? If so, how do you think the other instructors are going to feel about that?

Yes ... but just a little... $10/h or so. So I mean they still pay their $220/h or so, but get a $10 "coupon" I thought if it didn't work out for me when I wanted to make some money while doing it, then it may work out if I want to lose some money while doing it. And simultaneously I'll be helping a person who wants to be a pilot, so what better than that.

[Bede]

Stol701,

I respect that you are coming back clarifying your points. I misunderstood some of your points so I would tone down my post a bit, but the general gist remains the same.

Flying is a profession and you need to do it full time to be good at it. There is a reason there are not a lot of part time doctors, lawyers, pilots, etc. It's just not something you can pick up on the side per se.

Like I mentioned, earn your money, buy a plane and enjoy yourself. I have often thought of running a little school, or a little mom and pop charter service, mostly for fun, but every time I crunch the numbers, I find I'm better off just working a day of OT to pay for a plane. There are no short cut in this business, and if you find one, either you're mistaken or TC will close the loophole really fast.

WRT to discounts, no one will be enticed. If they can't afford $220/hr, they can't afford $210/hr. All of us who enjoy GA want to make flying cheap for people so the common man can afford to do it. Unfortunately, the common man can't afford it anymore, so you have to gear your instructing to those with money: doctors, lawyers, business folks, etc. These people are particular: they want a nice plane and are willing to pay for it. Flying a clapped out C150 for $30/hr less than a new C172 is a path to ruin- you'll lose your customers.

Cheers,

[Dagwood]

if it didn't work out for me when I wanted to make some money while doing it, it may work out if I want to lose some money while doing it

Tell that to your kids.

[Oxi]

I am really only looking for how to consistently make something like 10h of flying a month, while flight instructing. I love flight instructing. I won't consider doing it as a hobby. I won't even want to fly with just about anyone who wants to fly only so they pay less money (provided I give them a break of 10 bucks). I definitely don't want large customer base. I don't want any student that I treat as a customer. They may be a customer to the school, but I want them to be a student for me.

The easiest way to make 10 hours a month is by being a part time instructor at a flight school, even doing ground school would be a good option to start.

Curious about this venture as you say you love instructing but wont consider it as a hobby?

The student needs an instructor that is committed and able to teach well. I suggest actually having a valid class 4 rating and know that you can provide what is needed.

oxi

[stol701]

The easiest way to make...

oxi

The ground school option is a good start into instructing, yes. I tried but was not successful the first time around and then didn't try more. I actually don't think it is absolute must to have the rating valid in order to provide ground lessons... as long as someone is willing to "supervise". It may be worth trying again.

...
WRT to discounts, no one will be enticed. If they can't afford $220/hr, they can't afford $210/hr. ... Flying a clapped out C150 for $30/hr less than a new C172 is a path to ruin- you'll lose your customers.

Cheers,

True. And I almost agree with the "full time" vs. "part time" thinking... especially statistically, which is what TC cares about.


Thanks everyone for taking time thinking about my crazy attempts at getting something without going through the established due process. I understand that most people here have sacrificed a lot in their lives to be where they are with flying, and that someone who is trying to bypass some of this may come off as, let's put it mildly, not very considerate. But your posts have helped me see that these options, as romantic as they seem, are not so beautiful and are probably contrary to the best interest of the students.

I guess for now renting remains the only real option. I will probably investigate the option of time sharing with some current and capable pilot to just get back in shape a little, but possibly to be able to get in the air more often.

Thanks