Interesting Incidents From Yesterday

[photofly]

Yes, just tonight.

The POH lists a maximum demonstrated crosswind component of (I think) 15 knots. A decent pilot can handle a bit more than that.

[MIQ]

I reached the limit of a very empty C172 at close to 30 knots direct crosswind from the right with proper inputs. It was almost impossible to keep it on the taxiway (at slow speed).

[pelmet]

Check the prop, if there is any green discolouration, that engine has to be torn down. That is why so many schools refuse to allow students to go to grass fields, if the prop gets greened up (even if it just touched some high grass - no harm no foul), you have to treat it like a prop strike...

Have had a prop touch high grass more than once. No teardown was done nor was one necessary.

[CpnCrunch]

Is it possible that the wind was so strong that the airplane reached its limit? How much xwind can a 150 take before it always veer off the runway even with xwind input and a competent pilot?

What was the crosswind at the time? If your airport has METARs you can find old ones at:

http://www.ogimet.com/metars.phtml.en

[fxyz]

The wind was 31016G21 and we used RW24. I checked the poh so it exceeded the limit.

[fxyz]

And to everyone who suggested me to tell an instructor, we told the CFI. He was furious but took us up and showed us some cross wind landings.

[CpnCrunch]

The wind was 31016G21 and we used RW24. I checked the poh so it exceeded the limit.

I don't think there is a 'limit' as such. The 1968 POH doesn't mention anything about maximum crosswinds at all. Some other POHs might give you values between 12 and 15 knots for "demonstrated crosswind". That is just the maximum wind they tried landing with during certification of that model.

I believe you should be able to land in a 16G21 crosswind in a 150 if you use the correct inputs. However I myself probably wouldn't bother flying in those conditions in a 150, even though I'm fairly certain I could land without breaking the plane or going off the runway. If my crosswind landing skills were in doubt then I definitely wouldn't fly in those conditions.

[Cat Driver]

What exactly made him furious?

[fxyz]

CpnCrunch, if the test pilot can only demonstrate 15kts cross wind, does it mean it's very advanced and we should never try it?

What exactly made him furious?

He's not happy because we didn't tell him right away... He said the plane could be damaged but we still flew it back without telling anyone.

[torquey401]

Was the plane snagged at any point due to this incident? Did it hit a runway light? Is it possible the prop hit something? Is it possible something is in fact broken? Was the plane inspected at some point before the next flight and certified?

Nothing in writing breaks the main communication tool, the Journey Log. I know it happens all the time, but that doesn't make it right. Got to love the state of flight training these days. But as long as you don't get into trouble, it's all good, right?

He's not happy because we didn't tell him right away... He said the plane could be damaged but we still flew it back without telling anyone.

EDIT: Exactly, good for him. Did it actually get looked at by an AME? He showed you how to fly in a crosswind, did he also give you a lesson on the pilot's responsibilities and airworthiness?

[fxyz]

Yes he asked a mechanic to take a look at it. We did't hit a runway light, actually we didn't hit anything. The plane just went off the runway briefly and the other student drove it back right away. We were still concerned about any hidden damages after I read the posts here - that's why we reported it to the CFI. Everyone makes mistakes. At least I know what to do if unlikely events like this happen again.

[DanWEC]

Good job!!!

I hope the CFI will simmer down and commend you two at a later time.

[CpnCrunch]

CpnCrunch, if the test pilot can only demonstrate 15kts cross wind, does it mean it's very advanced and we should never try it?

I don't think it's the "maximum that a test pilot can demonstrate". More like "the maximum wind we had at the test pilot's airport while he/she was testing". If you look on this forum (especially at Colonel Sanders posts) you'll see lots of discussion of this very topic.

Still, it's not really a good idea to fly in conditions exceeding the max demonstrated crosswind unless you're confident that you can land the plane without breaking anything.

[Sulako]

Yes he asked a mechanic to take a look at it. We did't hit a runway light, actually we didn't hit anything. The plane just went off the runway briefly and the other student drove it back right away. We were still concerned about any hidden damages after I read the posts here - that's why we reported it to the CFI. Everyone makes mistakes. At least I know what to do if unlikely events like this happen again.

You did the right thing. Sometimes it's scary, but you still did it. Good, for you. Keep doing this thing.

[Rookie50]

LI don't want to ask instructors at our school and put that student into trouble... So what could be the cause of this incident? Obviously he didn't do it intentionally.

PLEASE rethink this mentality. It's a huge problem with students and people new to aviation. I don't know what school you're at, but both yourself and the other pilot need to bring it the CFI/instructor and ask questions. Maybe you have an SMS in place? Keeping quiet about incidents, whether it's your fault or not, is the worst thing you can do. Nobody will get into trouble, hopefully quite the opposite if management is worth anything. In aviation progress is often made by mistakes, it's better if they're learnt from minor ones.

Cheers

Not necessarily. A problem is some of these SMS programs are not run like the program is designed to, which defeats the purpose of enhancing safety.

[fxyz]

Thanks guys!

Still, it's not really a good idea to fly in conditions exceeding the max demonstrated crosswind unless you're confident that you can land the plane without breaking anything.

I remember photofly said something like "instructors have to teach students to fly at the limit of the airplane"? So I'll ask my instructor to practice it with me sometime and won't let him go home until I can reach that level.

[KnownIce]

So I'll ask my instructor to practice it with me sometime and won't let him go home until I can reach that level.

Sadly, the odds are your instructor is a fairly new pilot him/herself, and is also not allowed to fly in significant winds, so you will instead be left to learn this on your own once in the real world.

Keep the plane straight, go around if things look ugly, and remember there is always (or should always) be another runway aligned with the wind you can go land at if you don't like what you are seeing. CFI would rather get a call from you from some other airport stating you'll be home late than to find themselves helping fish propeller pieces out of the snowbank on the upwind side of the runway.

[photofly]

T
I remember photofly said something like "instructors have to teach students to fly at the limit of the airplane"?

It wasn't something I invented, I was quoting TC's Flight Instructor's Guide.

Sadly, the odds are your instructor is a fairly new pilot him/herself, and is also not allowed to fly in significant winds, so you will instead be left to learn this on your own once in the real world.

And yet... perhaps, just perhaps, your instructor is a big boy or girl and actually is allowed out in the wind! Let's be optimistic. (Do I need to make a comment about the needless and baseless flight-school bashing going on here?)

[LousyFisherman]

I believe you should be able to land in a 16G21 crosswind in a 150 if you use the correct inputs. However I myself probably wouldn't bother flying in those conditions in a 150, even though I'm fairly certain I could land without breaking the plane or going off the runway. If my crosswind landing skills were in doubt then I definitely wouldn't fly in those conditions.

16 gusting to 20 is fairly easy in a 150. A steady 25 is pretty well my limit. At that speed I have difficulty keeping the proper alignment as well as keeping the plane centered on the runway during the approach.

YMMV
LF

[Cat Driver]

At that speed I have difficulty keeping the proper alignment as well as keeping the plane centered on the runway during the approach.

Do you use the crab method on the approach or the wing down slipping method?