The Great Flying Instructor debate..

[Big Pistons Forever]

Wow what a surprise yet another thread on the training forum that has degenerated into an exercises in instructor bashing

I find it interesting that the same posters that complain the loudest about how crappy todays pilots are, are also the ones most insistent that training be done in the minimum possible time.......

[photofly]

The problem is many freelancers are F*uckups that couldn't cut it at an FTU.

Goodness me, now it's someone else's turn to throw around sweeping generalizations about flight instructors!

[Big Pistons Forever]

The problem is many freelancers are F*uckups that couldn't cut it at an FTU.

Goodness me, now it's someone else's turn to throw around sweeping generalizations about flight instructors!

You are right it is a generalization but it is also true. And unlike the rectal plucks by the usual posters who IMO don't have a clue, what I said is based on my personal observations and experiences during the full and part time flight instruction I have conducted since 1987.

Here is a question. What would be the avcanada reaction to somebody who said

" I have never flown a float plane but you guys are doing it all wrong !"

[Old Dog Flying]

Like that Old Fart ., I completed the PPL in 30 hours TOTAL, but that was the minimum away back when.

As for free lancers being f^%$-Ups, think again. now who is bashing instructors? I freelanced with a good deal of success for about 30 years And I am not being sensitive, just curious as to where BPF gets his info

Barney

[Big Pistons Forever]

Like that Old Fart ., I completed the PPL in 30 hours TOTAL, but that was the minimum away back when.

As for free lancers being f^%$-Ups, think again. now who is bashing instructors? I freelanced with a good deal of success for about 30 years And I am not being sensitive, just curious as to where BPF gets his info

Barney

Sigh.....I said many freelancers were F*uckups, not all of them or even most of them and then went on to point out the challenge a zero hour guy would have in finding a good one. Absolutely there are good freelancers out there but again in my experience the ones who would be of help to the original poster, that is ones that are willing to do a PPL were often ones who did not succeed when they worked at an FTU.

Don't forget every freelancer will have had to start at an FTU. The good ones stayed at the FTU until they moved on. The good ones that moved on sometimes decided to do a bit of freelance, but tended to do it as a side line and usually only for advanced training.

However like I said I am relating my own experiences and observations. If your local fly scene is full of good freelance instructors who want to do PPL them I am happy for you, however I would still suggest that is not typical.

Barney what is your opinion of the quality of freelancers at ZBB who are doing PPL's ?

[photofly]

Could you perhaps say a bit more what you mean by "many"? 10? 20? 1000 nationwide? 10%? A sizeable minority? A majority?

Obviously an instructor who is teaching freelance must hold a Class III rating and so have established at least a minimum record of success while teaching at an FTU previously.

[Strega]

If some guy showed up with an old C 172 and said "teach me to fly" I would almost certainly pass.

Are you beyond teaching someone to fly?

From my own personal experiences, the "instructors" I have had (Im talking about people with instructor ratings, class whatever) have taught me the minimal needed to pass flight tests. I have learned a million times more from people who are pilots, that have some time, to share their own experiences.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Photofly

This is not a debating society. I presented an opinion on the issue of the quality of the freelance instructors that I have observed. It represents one data point. If you do not agree with my opinion, which of course is your prerogative, then present an alternative opinion with the reasons you don't agree. Zander and other readers can read them both and form their own opinion.

What I find mildly vexing is posts like yours which is just arguing for the sake of arguing........

Strega

That personal attack was lame even by your low standards. Maybe next time try to pull through when you are losing thread control, it might work better for you

[Strega]

Obviously an instructor who is teaching freelance must hold a Class III rating and so have established at least a minimum record of success while teaching at an FTU previously.

I think the key word in the above is "minimum"

I wonder if the type of instructor that PF mentions, is capable of producing a successful ppl in the "minimum" time.

[photofly]

Photofly

This is not a debating society. I presented an opinion on the issue of the quality of the freelance instructors that I have observed.

Fabulous. Now we're getting somewhere. How many freelance instructors have you observed? One? Two? Twenty-five?

You said "lots of freelance flight instructors are f*ck-ups." I want to know what you mean by "lots". I think anyone who's thinking of taking your advice on board might want to know too. It's not pedantry to ask you to explain something that's completely unclear.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Aahhh when it comes to criticizing some posters here are more free to do so and not need to explain why than others.

It is all about who is the real pro and those who are amateurs.

My guess is he thinks 80% are fu.kups, like the percentage of engine failures he believes are pilot induced.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Photofly

This is not a debating society. I presented an opinion on the issue of the quality of the freelance instructors that I have observed.

Fabulous. Now we're getting somewhere. How many freelance instructors have you observed? One? Two? Twenty-five?

You said "lots of freelance flight instructors are f*ck-ups." I want to know what you mean by "lots". I think anyone who's thinking of taking your advice on board might want to know too. It's not pedantry to ask you to explain something that's completely unclear.

I did not say "Lot's" I said "many" and I even bolded it, but then I guess you would have to actually read what I said before reflexively disagreeing with me.....and I know that is going to be a stretch

Anyway pedantry you want, pedantry you shall have

From the Webster Dictionary- many: consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number

[Shiny Side Up]

Obviously an instructor who is teaching freelance must hold a Class III rating and so have established at least a minimum record of success while teaching at an FTU previously.

Actually, that "minimum record of success" is pretty minimum. Did you know that all of your initial recommends can be fails and you can still upgrade to a class 3? I didn't believe that either until I saw it happen.

Either way, sometimes I have to agree with BPF in that it seems like a majority (by my count about 70%, out of the 30 or so I've known over the years) of the freelancers aren't great. That said though, the FTU record isn't that much better. Its really buyer beware out there for a new student, and one can't stress it enough anymore. Shop wisely. New students, and some not so new ones are easy prey in this world, not unlike the world of airplane maintenance, when they step into it trusting and eyes closed. But then, its par for everything else in the world. Its full of people who will pick your pocket if you give them a chance.

[praveen4143]

I've seen some great and some really lousy freelance instructors myself. Same is the case with FTU instructors... I think the real fact is that its a buyer-beware world out there...

For instance, I was recently out shopping for a car battery. Apparently the Maxx brand of Walmart batteries and the Kirkland brand of Costco batteries are made by the same company to the same specifications. Now if I didn't gather this information from another forum, then I would have gone for an Energizer brand or MotoMaster brand of Canadian Tire, I would have paid more for less battery. It is indeed a buyer-beware situation... Or more correctly it is a buyer-do-proper-research world out there!

[Old Dog Flying]

During the 40 years of instructing, I also managed 4 FTUs and worked part time for a couple of FTUs and free lanced for about 20 years. During that time I met other free lancers most of whom were very good with only a handful who were total screw-ups. I instructed in many aircraft types that some FTU instructors were scared schittless to even try.

During my long stint at Blunder Bay I met 2 freelancers who should never have been allowed to fly anything let alone instruct others. One of them still plies his trade on the unsuspecting.

I retired from everything in 2003 including instructing but every time I have to have a PPC for insurance purposes, I am very picky about who rides right seat,

Barney

[Strega]

Whats the old adage?

"Those that can do, those that can't teach"

[Bede]

BPF,

Normally I really enjoy reading your well-thought out posts. However, you are completely out in left field on this one. Your sweeping generalizations seem to be based on your dislike for freelancers. When pressed about numbers, you can't substantiate your brash opinion with any substantive fact.

I still freelance because I enjoy flying small aircraft and doing flying I never get to do anymore (floats, skis). I also still enjoy instructing.

[cgzro]

My experience is that I pretty much had to go to freelancers to get proper specialized acro instruction.
I did not encounter any f-ups but they are all type A personalities that mostly did not like each other. If you could ignore their bashing of each other they were all pretty good actually and since Im not dead yet they must have cumulatively done something right.

Ive also used freelance for some specialzed ski training which is also impossible at an FTU.

Anyway its buyer beware in every transaction.

[DonutHole]

The problem is many freelancers are F*uckups that couldn't cut it at an FTU.

Goodness me, now it's someone else's turn to throw around sweeping generalizations about flight instructors!

You are right it is a generalization but it is also true. And unlike the rectal plucks by the usual posters who IMO don't have a clue, what I said is based on my personal observations and experiences during the full and part time flight instruction I have conducted since 1987.

Here is a question. What would be the avcanada reaction to somebody who said

" I have never flown a float plane but you guys are doing it all wrong !"

There's just so much wrong.

First, what in your opinion makes your experience more valid than those you attacked? is it simply your belief that it is? What makes that belief more sound and reasonable than their beliefs?

Second, generalizations are generalizations. You've been dragged down and beaten by experience.

and your comment about the debate society, and people arguing for the sake of arguing... Welcome to the club.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

During the 40 years of instructing, I also managed 4 FTUs and worked part time for a couple of FTUs and free lanced for about 20 years. During that time I met other free lancers most of whom were very good with only a handful who were total screw-ups. I instructed in many aircraft types that some FTU instructors were scared schittless to even try.

Well Old Dog you and I and a few others here see flight instruction in a different light than some other instructors here, speaking of aircraft types, we both learned on the Fleet Canuck and between us have a whole lot of time instructing on them.

I instructed in many aircraft types that some FTU instructors were scared schittless to even try.

BPF and I disagree on how safe the Fleet Canuck is to instruct on, he has said he will not instruct on one because there are no brakes on the right hand side.

If you and I were like BPF we would never have received our flight instructors rating.

[Big Pistons Forever]

My experience is that I pretty much had to go to freelancers to get proper specialized acro instruction.
.

Unfortunately the context of my post seems to have been lost. The post I made my comment about the quality of freelance instruction was a reply to a suggestion by another poster that Zander a zero hour pilot should get a freelance instructor to do his PPL, not advanced acrobatic instruction.

Our opinions are shaped by our experiences. Again my personal observation has been many of the freelancers I that I have observed who were doing PPL instruction, almost all who were low time Class 3's, were not very good. I do not believe I was the only around who held that opinion.

My intention was never to disparage all freelance instructors, after all I am one myself. As soon as you get out the PPL/night/CPL initial training regime it is unlikely you will find advanced training at an FTU anyway and will end up using an instructor with specialist skills and experience. Most of those have another full time job and will do a bit of freelance on the side. It is a win win.

For people who don't agree with me why don't you post your actual experiences with freelance instructors who are doing what Zander wants, teaching the PPL, not what you don't like about the tone of my post.

Maybe for what ever reason my local area just got a disproportionate number of bad apples. If so some posts that balance my own would be entirely appropriate and Zander can make up his own mind on this issue.

However if you don't have any direct knowledge of the instructor scene in your area and still want to comment on this issue than I think you should acknowledge that you are presenting what you think, not what you have seen.

[Big Pistons Forever]

BPF and I disagree on how safe the Fleet Canuck is to instruct on, he has said he will not instruct on one because there are no brakes on the right hand side.
.

I know you are desperate when you trot out that tired old chestnut

[Chuck Ellsworth]

You are right it is a generalization but it is also true. And unlike the rectal plucks by the usual posters who IMO don't have a clue, what I said is based on my personal observations and experiences during the full and part time flight instruction I have conducted since 1987.

What class of instructor refers to other pilots as " rectal plucks " in a general term, with no identifying explanation?

Oh wait....it is BPF's opinion.....

Sorry.

[Old Dog Flying]

.: Learning to fly in the Canuck was a real joy and over the years I flew 39 different Canucks and of these I taught dozens of young and old kids to fly this great old bird and never a problem because of a lack of brakes on my side of the 'pit. My last two PPL candidates shared my love affair with the Canuck and both went on to fly commercially. To my knowledge, none of my Canuck students have bent this "unsafe" aeroplane.

Last night I talked to a young fellow who was doing hi ME training at Blunder Bay. His first 1.5 dual was learning to program the circuit turning points into the digital wonder on the panel because no one could fly the mighty twin visually in the circuit...what bullschitt is this....from a young ME instructor.

As for Strega's comment; I taught because I enjoyed seeing the look on a students face when he/she mastered an exercise and seeing them after their first solo and after the flight test. I was never interested in being a button pusher as so many of the instructors are today. Building hours for the sake of advancing to the mighty position of a Scarebus monitor leads to one thing only..dumbing down of the pilot community.

Thankfully I'm retired
Barney

[Big Pistons Forever]

You are right it is a generalization but it is also true. And unlike the rectal plucks by the usual posters who IMO don't have a clue, what I said is based on my personal observations and experiences during the full and part time flight instruction I have conducted since 1987.

What class of instructor refers to other pilots as " rectal plucks " in a general term, with no identifying explanation?

Oh wait....it is BPF's opinion.....

Sorry.

Actually my, in retrospect rather earthy descriptor, "rectal plucks" was not meant to indicate individuals it was to indicate the quality of the posts that some people post on the "training" forum.

Posts that don't provide any useful information, that contain blanket remarks that serve no purpose other than to insult, demean and disparage any instructor teaching today, that refuse to acknowledge the students role in the success of flight training, that refuse to acknowledge that maybe flight training has actually evolved and that there are better ways to teach something.............or in other words most of your posts and those of a few other regular "contributors".

One of the reasons I post is so that I can pay forward all of the great advice, help, and mentoring I have received throughout my career. There is a reason you almost never see new instructors post on this forum even though I know many read it regularly. That is because they know you and the other usual suspects will go out of their way rip their face off if they dare to express an opinion.

So if your goal is to help prevent the freeflow of ideas and information in flight training all I can say is

GOOD JOB !