Float Rating In Southern Ontario - Inquiry

[CoopAir1986]

How are ya. Long time reader, first time poster.

I know this topic has been beaten to death but please bare with me. Theres lots of conflicting information in the other threads and I'm looking for a simple answer. I'm currently flying on the east coast of Canada and I have an opportunity to fly twin otters on floats this summer, however, I still require a float rating. Simply, I'm coming home to Toronto mid-May and I'm hoping to find someone who can issue me a float rating and teach me a few things. I'll be flying with some of the highest time float captains on the east coast and will get the old school, hard knocks float flying training on the daily. Unfortunately these boys are unable to issue me a rating, so I'm asking.. Something cheap and cheerful; anyone with any information or contacts would be tremendously appreciated.

Cheers,

CoopAir

[PilotDAR]

highest time float captains on the east coast and will get the old school, hard knocks float flying training on the daily. Unfortunately these boys are unable to issue me a rating,

That piques my interest. A CPL "Captain" is very likely entitled to issue a float rating, I wonder where the gap in process.

You can look up Lake Country Airways in Orillia, though I caution that a fresh float rating there would be a ways back of being ready for a Twin Otter on floats....

[jpilot77]

though I caution that a fresh float rating there would be a ways back of being ready for a Twin Otter on floats....

Me thinks he'll be in the right seat of the Twin Otter.

[Duffman]

Take your pick, Georgian Bay or Lake Country. Lake Country is the cheaper option because they use the 172 instead of the 180. I think the only other option in that area would be to find a private guy willing to train you.

[CoopAir1986]

That piques my interest. A CPL "Captain" is very likely entitled to issue a float rating, I wonder where the gap in process.

You can look up Lake Country Airways in Orillia, though I caution that a fresh float rating there would be a ways back of being ready for a Twin Otter on floats....

I thought it might. I'm sure you can understand that customers who charter these large aircraft may not appreciate the companys pilots acquiring ratings on their dime. Additionally when someone charters an aircraft with the guarantee of two certified float pilots up front, they're expecting just that. Also, would you feel comfortable flying a twin otter on floats, solo, with just 5 hours of dual time under your belt? It sure would be exciting though. And I don't know about you but I certainly couldn't afford it..

I appreciate the suggestion, my thanks. Lake Country in Orillia is one I previously considered, however they, like all schools, are trying to turn a profit. I'm more so looking for a private owner, perhaps someone who would be willing to help a fellow aviator out for an agreed upon remuneration.

Me thinks he'll be in the right seat of the Twin Otter.

You know it.

[I_Heart_Seaplanes]

That piques my interest. A CPL "Captain" is very likely entitled to issue a float rating, I wonder where the gap in process.

I imagine the gap is the requirement for 5 solo circuits. That is not going to happen in a Twin Otter.

To the OP, make sure wherever you decide to do the rating has a Authorized Person who can sign your license right away. If not, you have to wait 90 days for your stick from TC before your rating is technically valid.

[CoopAir1986]

I imagine the gap is the requirement for 5 solo circuits. That is not going to happen in a Twin Otter.

To the OP, make sure wherever you decide to do the rating has a Authorized Person who can sign your license right away. If not, you have to wait 90 days for your stick from TC before your rating is technically valid.

Precisely. Very interesting tidbit there, I appreciate that, you very well could have just saved me from being a Debbie downer this summer!

Take your pick, Georgian Bay or Lake Country. Lake Country is the cheaper option because they use the 172 instead of the 180. I think the only other option in that area would be to find a private guy willing to train you.

Duffman I've read your postings in other threads and I see you've issued float ratings in the past, is this something you still do? Might you be located in southern Ontario?

Anyone able to help out, or willing to provide a contact or reference.. Tremendously appreciated. Feel free to pm me.

Many Thanks!

CoopAir

[photofly]

...however they, like all schools, are trying to turn a profit. I'm more so looking for a private owner, perhaps someone who would be willing to help a fellow aviator out for an agreed upon remuneration.

As long as the agreed upon remuneration is very very small, clearly.

[Big Pistons Forever]

That piques my interest. A CPL "Captain" is very likely entitled to issue a float rating, I wonder where the gap in process.

I imagine the gap is the requirement for 5 solo circuits. That is not going to happen in a Twin Otter.

To the OP, make sure wherever you decide to do the rating has a Authorized Person who can sign your license right away. If not, you have to wait 90 days for your stick from TC before your rating is technically valid.

Also if this is a true 2 crew operation than the OP will be unable to get a DHC 6 PCC without a float rating. A caution if you do not get a float rating and a PCC/PPC and the POC or air operator Operations Manual specifies the aircraft will be operated 2 crew, than all of your time will not count for anything. You will simply be a passenger.

[PilotDAR]

however they, like all schools, are trying to turn a profit.

An excellent attitude, and necessary to remain in business, so they are available, with their authorized person, at the ready, for business minded customers. Is the company you're planning to fly for trying to turn a profit? Why should a school be any different? I expect that they turned a profit on me, when I got my CPL there years ago...

I'm more so looking for a private owner, perhaps someone who would be willing to help a fellow aviator out for an agreed upon remuneration.

So you're looking for a private owner, who is an authorized person, who will train you for less than fair remuneration, while circumventing the regulatory requirements for a commercial air service? And then you'd like to be employed by a commercial air service?

Do you eat out? Should the restaurant try to turn a profit?

[Rookie50]

however they, like all schools, are trying to turn a profit.

An excellent attitude, and necessary to remain in business, so they are available, with their authorized person, at the ready, for business minded customers. Is the company you're planning to fly for trying to turn a profit? Why should a school be any different? I expect that they turned a profit on me, when I got my CPL there years ago...

I'm more so looking for a private owner, perhaps someone who would be willing to help a fellow aviator out for an agreed upon remuneration.

So you're looking for a private owner, who is an authorized person, who will train you for less than fair remuneration, while circumventing the regulatory requirements for a commercial air service? And then you'd like to be employed by a commercial air service?

Do you eat out? Should the restaurant try to turn a profit?

Let me understand this. On the airline forums, whenever anyone comments on how expensive airfares are in Canada (and I've never seen them higher YYZ-YVR for example, one week out) they are castigated for complaining, we need a healthy industry, pilot pay, etc. Fine.

But we see here we see people wanting to join this now - heathier and profitable industry --- by asking for donated // super cheap flight time, or better yet crowd funding like a cancer patient. Unbelievable. This is enablement and I don't buy into it. Good instruction in anything is worth what you pay.

[SuperchargedRS]

I find it odd that a company would put you into a twotter on floats with zero float experience.

It's also odd that they didn't recommend, or send you to, someone to teach to the fundamentals of float flying.


You'd think these questions would have been answered by that employer.

[CoopAir1986]

Well happy Sunday morning to all of you.. Lovely to wake up to a bombardment of negative comments.

Before you criticize any further, I'd like to point out, over the last 4 years I have shelled out over 60K towards my Commercial Licensing, supporting the "profitable industry" right here in southern Ontario. Much of which I will still be paying back over the next half decade. I've never batted an eye or complained once; I'm proud to have completed such thorough training, money well spent. I understand the true value of quality flight training, I stayed here in Canada and didn't flee to Florida or the like, where pilots are churned out cheap like the American industry itself.

Now let me now ask you, how much is it, do you believe a first year FO makes here in the "healthy and profitable" aviation industry of Canada? You will have an opinion I'm sure.. I have the paycheck to prove it. Now I don't know where you live but I've had to move to a remote community on the east coast of Canada to hunt down that first coveted job, where the price of milk is $6 for a 2L carton of Milk. And beer.. you don't want to know. Starting a family, not a chance.. vacation, you're dreaming. I could continue to paint a picture of my situation but nobody gives a *hit. Fact is, I've paid my dues and my fees, I have my coveted little career underway flying twins on wheels.. I don't have deep pockets by any means and I haven't been misleading or unclear by exactly who it is I'm seeking to receive my rating from.

The quality of the float training I receive is near irrelevant. It's a total of 7 hours of training guys.. among other details, it's the min TC requirement for a float rating. Is it sufficient? Of course not, but let me be clear, we are not getting into that here. No matter if I go the Ivy league of float schools or Handsome Bobs school of floaty pilots, neither will prepare me for whats coming. Do you know who will prepare me for my float career? The big guy in the left seat with 30,000 hrs of twin otter time. I *hit you not. Go on now, I'm all ears.

I'm more so looking for a private owner, perhaps someone who would be willing to help a fellow aviator out for an agreed upon remuneration.

So you're looking for a private owner, who is an authorized person, who will train you for less than fair remuneration, while circumventing the regulatory requirements for a commercial air service? And then you'd like to be employed by a commercial air service?

Let me understand this. On the airline forums, whenever anyone comments on how expensive airfares are in Canada (and I've never seen them higher YYZ-YVR for example, one week out) they are castigated for complaining, we need a healthy industry, pilot pay, etc. Fine.

But we see here we see people wanting to join this now - heathier and profitable industry --- by asking for donated // super cheap flight time, or better yet crowd funding like a cancer patient. Unbelievable. This is enablement and I don't buy into it. Good instruction in anything is worth what you pay.

Between PilotDAR and Rookie50.. I have to single you guys out, of all the negative comments, you've ticked all the boxes. A special good morning to you sirs'. "While circumventing the regulatory requirements" This is, nor will ever be acceptable in my mind, not once did I ever state this as my intention. If you can foresee this as an issue I will run into, I'm all ears. "Less than fair remuneration" Everyone, this is called trolling. I clearly stated "an agreed upon remuneration", which you quoted me on. And "crowd funding like a cancer patient".. What in Gods name is wrong with you. Disgusting individual.

I could continue to quote and feed the trolls here but my breakfast cereal is getting warm.. I've unfortunately had to explain my present situation, justifying my request; but I thank you for the trip down memory lane. I will Not be replying to any continual negativity, you don't know me or may not understand the uphill battle that modern day, green aviators have to face. We don't need to hear it. Just understand my intentions are good, my mindset is clean, I respect the laws in place by TC, and I have every intention of being the straightest, safest and most competent pilot I can be.

Now if there is anyone with a heart on here, who is willing to provide some instruction to a pilot wishing to advance his career.. I'd love to learn all I can from you, I will compensate however much you see fit, and I promise you I will make you proud.

CoopAir

[I_Heart_Seaplanes]

I find it odd that a company would put you into a twotter on floats with zero float experience.

We all know that a basic 7 hour float rating barely scratches the surface of what you need to know to fly floats commercially. Why not learn the rest sitting right seat in a TO with an experienced Captain mentoring the new pilot? I can't think of a better way to learn.

[Duffman]

I don't really understand whats so wrong about him going right seat in the twin otter with no float time. The guy in the left seat is going to babysit him anyway.

I do ratings once in a while but I just help out at a school out west when i'm not working so that wouldn't really work. I think you should just go to one of the schools I mentioned, get it done and then go back to work and start learning.

[SuperchargedRS]

Nothing wrong with it exactly, just doesn't seem the most logical progression most folks take.

The thing that is the larger issue is that the company didn't send him to someone for the training, no recommendations for anything, I'd just think they would have more of a plan for a greenhorn CPL who they are going to out into a twin turbine float plane?


To the OP, the fact that you paid 60k for flight training really has jack to do with jack.


Ether way, sound like a good opportunity for the guy, not going to be getting PIC time, but still a great opportunity.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Flight training can be:

-Fast
-Good
-Cheap

Pick which one you want. It is possible to get 2 of the 3 with some research and a bit of luck. Getting all 3 is practically impossible

Coop

Sorry we offended you but the points brought up in earlier posts are IMO, legitimate. From what I can see you want a fast float rating. The only guaranteed way that is going to happen is to go to an FTU with an available instructor, a serviceable airplane and an on staff AP. Book ahead and you should be in and out in 3 days and it will cost 2000- 2500 dollars. The good news is the quality of the instruction is not that important as you will get the real world education sitting right seat in the Two Otter. All you want is to be good enough by 6.3 hours to get sent for your solo circuits.

Your whine about how much you have already spent is not going to get you much sympathy as everyone else had to pay their own way from zero hours to employable for that first job.

[Rookie50]

Flight training can be:

-Fast
-Good
-Cheap

Pick which one you want. It is possible to get 2 of the 3 with some research and a bit of luck. Getting all 3 is practically impossible

Coop

Sorry we offended you but the points brought up in earlier posts are IMO, legitimate. From what I can see you want a fast float rating. The only guaranteed way that is going to happen is to go to an FTU with an available instructor, a serviceable airplane and an on staff AP. Book ahead and you should be in and out in 3 days and it will cost 2000- 2500 dollars. The good news is the quality of the instruction is not that important as you will get the real world education sitting right seat in the Two Otter. All you want is to be good enough by 6.3 hours to get sent for your solo circuits.

Your whine about how much you have already spent is not going to get you much sympathy as everyone else had to pay their own way from zero hours to employable for that first job.

Coop, likewise no offense intended.

The crowd funding comment was actually in reference to another post on SA where the individual is soliciting donations to finish training. Not buying that. I gave advice, that's it.

Now that that's resolved, I stand by my comments. This isn't charity and there will be none to be found here. I started a company from nothing, while dead broke, no help, through hard work and determination, while others around me were trying to put me out of business.

Been there, done that.

So my response is this to your post. Good luck, you'll find a way.

[cessnafloatflyer]

Just be sure that the kind hearted person has the proper insurance for you, without a rating to fly solo, a current CPL with more than 50 hours on type and a logbook for themselves and yourself, perhaps a copy of the journey logbook to prove all of the flights took place. Any AP or TC will require to see all of this in order for your license paperwork to go through. Now, an AP can be any AP, by law we all have to do the work regardless of where or with whom you did the rating. There is a checklist however that proves what you are looking for. If it is not with a school a copy of the supervising pilot's license and medical is a good one to copy as well. I'd be looking for all of that if your rating came to me to sign as an AP, as well as TC will also be looking if they are unfamiliar with the pilot who did the rating and his/her a/c.

Take care out there....

[PilotDAR]

I believe that a regulatory requirement may be being circumvented, if a privately registered aircraft, owned by the "instructor" is made available for paid flight training - but this is not my area of expertise, so I'll defer to those more knowledgeable on this aspect.

That said, I do know that my insurance would very certainly not cover training on my plane, nor solo flight of a "lesser experienced" pilot. Even if it would, would I trust that pilot to make good on the deductible, if that pilot is already trying to economize? I have very certainly not accepted the loan of aircraft for my solo use in the past, as I knew that I could not afford the deductible, should I cause an insured loss. One Cessna amphibian I fly has a $25,000 deductible, and it is necessary that I fly it solo (as I'm much more experienced than the owner anyway), but I fly it with preagreement that I cannot cover the deductible.

The FTU route is the way to get the float rating, as all these things are properly covered, and you won't find yourself in an awkward situation, if things go wrong.

No offense intended at Coop, but this is a public forum, frequented by owners, instructors, FTU operators, and TC Inspectors. The commercial providers are in business to make a profit, so why not to play it straight, and employ them to do their job....