I've got a few questions on landings for the high-timers out there. I've read some of the old threads about switching your vision from flare height to the end of the runway and I seem to be doing that OK. But I am wondering about power settings. I have been taught to pull the throttle to idle when I am over the threshold and ready to flare. I can get the aircraft levelled out and lined up on the centreline but it just seems that arresting the sink rate is really tough and results in a bumpy landing. I'm not saying that anybody's hat is falling off of their head during the landing but my instructor isn't able to sip on a coffee when I land either. But that's what I'm aiming for, those nice, gentle even transitions to the ground.
I've been experimenting with power settings and I find that if I leave a little power on until I'm levelled off over the runway and then pull the power to idle it results in a smoother and more controllable landing. I can also hear other guys doing this too when they come in for landing.
So what's the trick? Any tips from you guys would be greatly appreciated.
Perfect Landings
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
With experience you can cut the power anywhere you want and still make a smooth landing, but you might find that it will be smoother in the early stages if you wait till you are raising the nose in the flare before you pull the throttle back to idle.
Pulling the throttle back just prior to the flare (with the natural tendency for the nose to want to drop at that time) leaves you scrambling to control the natural nose drop at a time when you should be thinking of a simple level off.
If you "fly" it into the flare and pull the power after you begin to raise the nose you will have a more stable flare. As I stated above, with experience it won't matter when you pull the power.
The disadvantage of the method above is that you will need a few hundred feet more runway.
By the way, waiting till you are in a level attitude in ground effect will leave you with the same (initially) awkward control problem as pulling the power before the flare.
The result that is intended by using the method described above is to reduce you workload. Flying the attitude and reducing power while raising the nose results in only one pitch adjustment in the flare, not two as with a power reduction and then a flare.
Try it. Let us know if it helpped.
Pulling the throttle back just prior to the flare (with the natural tendency for the nose to want to drop at that time) leaves you scrambling to control the natural nose drop at a time when you should be thinking of a simple level off.
If you "fly" it into the flare and pull the power after you begin to raise the nose you will have a more stable flare. As I stated above, with experience it won't matter when you pull the power.
The disadvantage of the method above is that you will need a few hundred feet more runway.
By the way, waiting till you are in a level attitude in ground effect will leave you with the same (initially) awkward control problem as pulling the power before the flare.
The result that is intended by using the method described above is to reduce you workload. Flying the attitude and reducing power while raising the nose results in only one pitch adjustment in the flare, not two as with a power reduction and then a flare.
Try it. Let us know if it helpped.
Pilots get higher, SCUBA Divers do it deeper!
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Cat Driver
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Interesting subject.
There are as many ideas on how to land as there are pilots it seems.
For what ever it is worth, when I am type rating any pilot on the PBY I have them close the throttles completly and be stabalized in the approach by 2 hundred feet above the surface, especially during water landing training.
When they are profficient in judging the correct flare height and able to land without the use of power I will then let them use power to land.
The more power you use the longer the airplane will be exposed to attitude and direction excursions.
By the way the PBY is heavier on the controls than a C150 / 172.
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There are as many ideas on how to land as there are pilots it seems.
For what ever it is worth, when I am type rating any pilot on the PBY I have them close the throttles completly and be stabalized in the approach by 2 hundred feet above the surface, especially during water landing training.
When they are profficient in judging the correct flare height and able to land without the use of power I will then let them use power to land.
The more power you use the longer the airplane will be exposed to attitude and direction excursions.
By the way the PBY is heavier on the controls than a C150 / 172.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
That, Charles is another thing I should have said: Power to idle well before the flare also lightens the workload in the flare.
Received a video clip of a PBY on approach (touch and go) with a couple of fishermen in a boat til just before lift off. Don't know if it was dubbed or for real. Telephoto lens makes it look pretty close. Title is "Fishing Hazard". Don't know how to put it on here.
PBY is White with Red belly and cowlings.
Received a video clip of a PBY on approach (touch and go) with a couple of fishermen in a boat til just before lift off. Don't know if it was dubbed or for real. Telephoto lens makes it look pretty close. Title is "Fishing Hazard". Don't know how to put it on here.
PBY is White with Red belly and cowlings.
Pilots get higher, SCUBA Divers do it deeper!
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Last edited by ahramin on Sat Apr 03, 2004 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cat Driver
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OW :
That is a Super Cat and the film was the start of " Always " a movie about firebombing.
I used to fly that same Cat many years ago.
Abramin:
When they look up at the far end of the runway it is proof positive that from that point until contact with the earth they will not have any clue as to how high they are above the runway.
I find it to be the most agravating and most difficult habit to try and correct.
It came into the training group some years ago and monkey see monkey do has ensured that it will be accepted as the way to train....Sadly.
Cat
That is a Super Cat and the film was the start of " Always " a movie about firebombing.
I used to fly that same Cat many years ago.
Abramin:
When they look up at the far end of the runway it is proof positive that from that point until contact with the earth they will not have any clue as to how high they are above the runway.
I find it to be the most agravating and most difficult habit to try and correct.
It came into the training group some years ago and monkey see monkey do has ensured that it will be accepted as the way to train....Sadly.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
All Far 23 turbines and Commuter turbines describe the technique used for certification. Fly @ 1.3 Vso stabilized on a 3 degree slope, (with power). @ 50 ft, power to idle and land with minimum flair.
My rule, flair once and if it doesn't land, fly it on. For safety sake transition from the low altitude, low energy state of the flair to on the ground as quickly as possible. Power on in the flair will allow you to fly it on and maybe get a squeeker but you are at the mercy of everthing. Too much power and you will float for ever. not enough flap and you will touch down too fast. Worst is too much power and not getting it off. Most important. RELAX, SURVEY YOUR SURROUNDINGS. and then make the airplane do what you want it to do. Which is a bone jarring crunch.
My rule, flair once and if it doesn't land, fly it on. For safety sake transition from the low altitude, low energy state of the flair to on the ground as quickly as possible. Power on in the flair will allow you to fly it on and maybe get a squeeker but you are at the mercy of everthing. Too much power and you will float for ever. not enough flap and you will touch down too fast. Worst is too much power and not getting it off. Most important. RELAX, SURVEY YOUR SURROUNDINGS. and then make the airplane do what you want it to do. Which is a bone jarring crunch.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
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permateacher
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Landings
Here's my two cents...
I don't think there's any one way to sequence the power reduction and flare for all landings. It depends on the type of aircraft, the weight, the weather conditions and the type of landing you need to do.
For light singles such as the 172 and the 150, they like to float if they're light. With just the student, instructor with half fuel and light wind for a normal landing I'd maintain a power setting that will give you a stabilized approach at the book approach speed all the way to the threashold. In the absence of apporach speed you can use Vso X 1.3. A few seconds before you start your level off 3-5 feet above the runway (flare), bring the power smoothly to idle. Once you level off, pause a few seconds in ground effect, then start to apply gentle back pressure to keep the aircraft off the rnwy but not climb. You can't rush the aircraft into the landing or it'll ballon up again. Keep pulling back ever so smoothly, gently and constantly and you will grease it on. Oh ya, on short final... ailerons for drift, rudder to keep straight, attitude for airspeed and power for height.
With more weight or hotter outside air temperature, fly it on with some power into the flare, because the aircraft will run out of lift at a faster speed... be ready.
For short field, put it where you want it... don't hold it off for a greaser or you'll be in the rhubarb.
With gusty wind, add half the gust factor to the appoach speed, fly it on with some extra pwr, and if you run out of rudder with the crosswind... you should overshoot earlier rather than later.
Hope that helps (beware of free advise, sometimes you get exactly what you pay for
)
Give me a PM with any questions
I don't think there's any one way to sequence the power reduction and flare for all landings. It depends on the type of aircraft, the weight, the weather conditions and the type of landing you need to do.
For light singles such as the 172 and the 150, they like to float if they're light. With just the student, instructor with half fuel and light wind for a normal landing I'd maintain a power setting that will give you a stabilized approach at the book approach speed all the way to the threashold. In the absence of apporach speed you can use Vso X 1.3. A few seconds before you start your level off 3-5 feet above the runway (flare), bring the power smoothly to idle. Once you level off, pause a few seconds in ground effect, then start to apply gentle back pressure to keep the aircraft off the rnwy but not climb. You can't rush the aircraft into the landing or it'll ballon up again. Keep pulling back ever so smoothly, gently and constantly and you will grease it on. Oh ya, on short final... ailerons for drift, rudder to keep straight, attitude for airspeed and power for height.
With more weight or hotter outside air temperature, fly it on with some power into the flare, because the aircraft will run out of lift at a faster speed... be ready.
For short field, put it where you want it... don't hold it off for a greaser or you'll be in the rhubarb.
With gusty wind, add half the gust factor to the appoach speed, fly it on with some extra pwr, and if you run out of rudder with the crosswind... you should overshoot earlier rather than later.
Hope that helps (beware of free advise, sometimes you get exactly what you pay for
)Give me a PM with any questions
What seems to work for me is once you flare, transfer your gaze to the end of the runway, and line the top of the dash with it. As you round out, pull back alittle to keep the dash lined with the end of the runway. That will give you a nice nose up attitude, as well as arrest that sink rate you mentioned. I'm assumeing your flying a light single piston, so I wouldn't land with any power unless your doing soft fields (even then, only a bit).
This technique has worked for everything from 172 to the king air.
This technique has worked for everything from 172 to the king air.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
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Cat Driver
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I find there is a grey area in judging height above the runway with a large number of pilots.
The grey area being the time period between the flare and the hold off portion prior to touch down, in that area a lot of pilots are depending on maintaining attitude to eventually "arrive" when lift decays to the point that the airplane will no longer fly.
During that period I find that most pilots do not have a clue if the wheels are 6 inches or 6 feet above the runway.
In every case the problem is looking to far ahead to accurately judge the height above the runway.
When wheel landing a comventional gear airplane do you still look at the far end of the runway to judge height?
Cat
The grey area being the time period between the flare and the hold off portion prior to touch down, in that area a lot of pilots are depending on maintaining attitude to eventually "arrive" when lift decays to the point that the airplane will no longer fly.
During that period I find that most pilots do not have a clue if the wheels are 6 inches or 6 feet above the runway.
In every case the problem is looking to far ahead to accurately judge the height above the runway.
When wheel landing a comventional gear airplane do you still look at the far end of the runway to judge height?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
LOL, not every case, sometimes I cant see very far ahead, but generally yes.
When judgeing the flare, I pick the point on the runway that im going to land on and keep it in my windscreen at the same point - like judgeing a glide, not moveing up or down, just getting bigger. Once that point is about to go under your wing, flare and transfer your gaze to the end of runway.
When judgeing the flare, I pick the point on the runway that im going to land on and keep it in my windscreen at the same point - like judgeing a glide, not moveing up or down, just getting bigger. Once that point is about to go under your wing, flare and transfer your gaze to the end of runway.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
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Cat Driver
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When you transfer your gaze to the end of the runway you have lost the ability to accurately judge any change in height above the runway.
Therein lies the problem in re teaching pilots how to accurately judge height after flaring to the level attitude.
Cat
Therein lies the problem in re teaching pilots how to accurately judge height after flaring to the level attitude.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
As you flare, and shift the FOCUS of your vision to the far end to more accurately note sink rate. You are using your PERIPHERAL vision to determine your actual height above ground, as well as control for drift once the far end disappears under the cowling. A student needs to be told this, the experienced folks just do it automatically.
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
Screw the greaser business. As Navy pilots say about the Air Force, "Flare to land, squat to pee".
Far more importantly, figure out what your final approach speed should be (at the weight, etc) then nail it. Too many pilots (usually low-time with marginal stick and rudder skills) allow the speed to vary all over the place, and when they're 20 fast, boy they're going to float a long way down the runway before touching down. If you can precisely maintain your airspeed on final, you're way ahead of the rest of the pack.
Stay on the runway centerline. Marginal pilots will ignore the crosswind during the flare and get blown over to the downwind side of the runway. I guess they don't mind taking out a row of runway lights, smashing up a wheel pant, etc.
Finally, in a light aircraft, remember that you don't land it. You maneuver the aircraft so that it is 6 inches above the runway with the power off in the landing attitude, and you try to stop it from touching down with aft elevator.
When you master all of the above, then start worrying about greasers. It's a lot easier to get a consistent landing with a consistent approach. It's not necessary (ie with sufficient skill you can be decelerating the entire final) but it's a heckuva lot easier.
Malignantly yours,
Far more importantly, figure out what your final approach speed should be (at the weight, etc) then nail it. Too many pilots (usually low-time with marginal stick and rudder skills) allow the speed to vary all over the place, and when they're 20 fast, boy they're going to float a long way down the runway before touching down. If you can precisely maintain your airspeed on final, you're way ahead of the rest of the pack.
Stay on the runway centerline. Marginal pilots will ignore the crosswind during the flare and get blown over to the downwind side of the runway. I guess they don't mind taking out a row of runway lights, smashing up a wheel pant, etc.
Finally, in a light aircraft, remember that you don't land it. You maneuver the aircraft so that it is 6 inches above the runway with the power off in the landing attitude, and you try to stop it from touching down with aft elevator.
When you master all of the above, then start worrying about greasers. It's a lot easier to get a consistent landing with a consistent approach. It's not necessary (ie with sufficient skill you can be decelerating the entire final) but it's a heckuva lot easier.
Malignantly yours,
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Cat Driver
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Yes , but back to looking at the far end of the runway and the ability to accurately judge height looking that far into the distance.
In a tailwheel airplane can you perform smooth wheel landings looking a mile ahead of the airplane to judge height for a smooth touchdown?
Can you maintain two feet above the runway at say 80 knots for a mile with your vision focused a mile ahead of the airplane?
In a tailwheel airplane can you perform smooth wheel landings looking a mile ahead of the airplane to judge height for a smooth touchdown?
Can you maintain two feet above the runway at say 80 knots for a mile with your vision focused a mile ahead of the airplane?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Thanks for all of the info guys, much appreciated. It seems like every pilot here just finds a system that works for him/her and sticks with it.
Cat Driver and Ahrahim: as far as the looking toward the end of the runway is concerned, I wouldn't say that that is the technique I am actually employing. Rather, I am switching my vision from where I feel like the airplane is going to touch down and the time to flare, to about as far ahead as I would look in my car driving the same speed. I am in no way peering toward the end of a 6000' runway.
But I am no 5000 hour pilot either, I am a 40 hour pilot. So what do you guys do as far as vision goes when at the point where you need to start levelling the airplane?
Cat Driver and Ahrahim: as far as the looking toward the end of the runway is concerned, I wouldn't say that that is the technique I am actually employing. Rather, I am switching my vision from where I feel like the airplane is going to touch down and the time to flare, to about as far ahead as I would look in my car driving the same speed. I am in no way peering toward the end of a 6000' runway.
But I am no 5000 hour pilot either, I am a 40 hour pilot. So what do you guys do as far as vision goes when at the point where you need to start levelling the airplane?
