Mooney qualified instructor

[milotron]

Apologies if this is a double post...

I am the new owner of a 1981 Mooney M20k. Due to some insurance misundetstandings, I am looking for a flight instructor or Commerical licensed pilot with recent ( or any ) time on a Mooney. I am in south Vancouver Island and this is proving to be a challenge.

Does anybody know of any one fitting this description?

I realize that I will likely be bringing someone in from abroad....


Thanks!

[photofly]

Most of the time insurance companies want a checkout from an instructor. I've never heard one say the instructor needed time on type. Perhaps you could just find someone who knows how to fly airplanes?

[Big Pistons Forever]

There is more to a check out than "Cows get bigger, Cows get smaller" . Getting some instruction from a pilot with time on type or even better from someone who owns or owned the same type will mean you get to hear about the tips and tricks to operate it and any gotcha's.

[photofly]

There is more to a check out than "Cows get bigger, Cows get smaller" . Getting some instruction from a pilot with time on type or even better from someone who owns or owned the same type will mean you get to hear about the tips and tricks to operate it and any gotcha's.

That may or may not be true but either way it is entirely irrelevant to the problem the poster has to solve. The pilot with time on type he's looking for could be the most clueless ham-fisted Mooney pilot in the world with nothing useful to say and no insight, and the insurance company would still be happy.

So check with them what qualifications the person they want to fly with you absolutely must have, and find a good pilot who meets them.

[milotron]

HI, thanks for the replies...yes this is first that I heard of the 'time on type' requirement from them also, when they rejected my proposed instructor. Previous conversations about who was flying the dual with me was for a 'qualified instructor'.

Speaking with others, they have only needed an instructor acting as check pilot primarily, or perhaps they just didn't ask!

I do agree that type specific training is preferred, and I have some fellow Mooney fliers who will provide this, but are not Commercial or Instructors meeting the requirements of the insurance folks; they are just private.

I have a line on a promising fellow out of Vancouver and will follow up with the insurance people on this too.

Would love to find someone in Victoria....

[PilotDAR]

In reading the OP's details, I'm having the feeling that the OP should consider seeking a different insurance company as well as mentor pilot. The Mooney is a type certified landplane, and to the best of my knowledge, accompanied with a decent flight manual. That means, among many things, that it will fly with the predictable characteristics of a landplane. I entirely agree that many landplanes, including Mooneys, have little gotchas, but they are little, not flight safety threatening. Being mentored through them is ideal, but honestly, good mentoring from an experienced pilot in that class will get you much farther down the path to safe flying on type, than seeking out a "Mooney" pilot. Of course, seek out the Mooney pilot if you can, but understand that it is possible that the pilot with Mooney time might have less overall experience and wisdom in general, than the broadly experienced pilot. And, I am specifically saying "pilot" without reference to any particular level of license. There are many awesomely class experienced PPLs.

I suggest probing back at the insurance company to refine their expectations. If you are mentored by a class licensed pilot with several hundred hour of high performance RG time, who can read and understand a flight manual, you'd be well on the way. "Gotchas" will become apparent as you fly, but are not safety threatening, or the plane would not have been certified!

"Type" familiarization is great, when you can get it, but sometimes, it's just not practically there. If the insurance company cannot figure out that a class experienced pilot will figure out and mentor it safely, you might need a different insurance company! Push back a little.....

[Rookie50]

Most of the time insurance companies want a checkout from an instructor. I've never heard one say the instructor needed time on type. Perhaps you could just find someone who knows how to fly airplanes?

Where do you read that? Why does the checkout pilot have to be an "instructor".

Please. Simply not true.

I do read mooneys love to float so perhaps someone with some time on type would be ideal.

[photofly]

Whose insurance policy is active while the checkout is being flown?

@milotron: Rookie50 can check you out, over the Internet. He's read all about Mooneys.

[trey kule]

Some time ago, Mooney found that a fair percentage of pilots new to the plane had accidents.

They responded by developing a 50 hour program to certify pilots to do checkouts on type for new Mooney pilots. I understand it has been very successful in reducing accidents in new to type.

Yes they are a simple plane. But it is a plane with characteristics that are unique, and different than the typical training plane.

At the risk of being accused of instructor bashing, just because someone has an instructor rating does not automatically qualify them to jump in any plane and check a pilot out.

Experience in this type counts. And , if for no other reason, a good checkout never hurts. We all develop bad habits.

[photofly]

Some time ago, Mooney found that a fair percentage of pilots new to the plane had accidents.

They responded by developing a 50 hour program to certify pilots to do checkouts on type for new Mooney pilots. I understand it has been very successful in reducing accidents in new to type.

Yes they are a simple plane. But it is a plane with characteristics that are unique, and different than the typical training plane.

At the risk of being accused of instructor bashing, just because someone has an instructor rating does not automatically qualify them to jump in any plane and check a pilot out.

Experience in this type counts. And , if for no other reason, a good checkout never hurts. We all develop bad habits.

Given some of the crap I've been told about the flight characteristics and the "correct" way to fly the fire-breathing Cessna 172 - by pilots with hundreds of hours flying them - I don't think just having time on a Mooney really qualifies most people to comment on how to fly it.

Either way, however, an instructor who knows how to fly, even without 20 minutes in the aircraft, might satisfy an insurance company. And at least that instructor can't spin you load of crap about how unusual the airplane is.

Remember folks, Mooneys *love* to float. You read it on the Internet.

[photofly]

I don't think I've been making my point very clearly. I don't think having a flight instructor rating "qualifies" anyone to give a check out in a Mooney, but I don't think an (unspecified) amount of time in one does either.

Having a flight instructor rating (one hopes) means the holder has some experience with teaching, supervising and judging basic manoeuvres that being "checked out" implies having competency with. Your average Mooney-flying pilot with hundreds of hours on type who doesn't do any instructing probably hasn't done any stalls or slow flight in the last four years, for example.

So I'd rather have a flight instructor who properly knows how to fly generally and can apply that experience to a Mooney than a random Mooney owner who's talked themselves into believing all sorts of special things about a Mooney because that's what they themselves were told and, you know, everyone likes to think they and their airplane are special.

Given the certification requirement that no airplane require "an unusual level of skill" I'm going to guess that Mooney's 50 hour course spent a fair amount of time re-teaching basic aircraft management skills that they found new Mooney owners were lacking.

If I'm looking for someone to help me get some confidence with the first few hours on type, the person I'm going to run from is the guy who tells me the type is "special" and he or she (alone) can show me how it should be done. The person I want is the one who says - "M20? Flies just like every other airplane in the world, using the same basic skills."

[ragbagflyer]

PM me. I'm on south Vancouver island with some recent time on type in an m-20 f and about 7200 hours total time.

[Rookie50]

I don't think I've been making my point very clearly. I don't think having a flight instructor rating "qualifies" anyone to give a check out in a Mooney, but I don't think an (unspecified) amount of time in one does either.

Having a flight instructor rating (one hopes) means the holder has some experience with teaching, supervising and judging basic manoeuvres that being "checked out" implies having competency with. Your average Mooney-flying pilot with hundreds of hours on type who doesn't do any instructing probably hasn't done any stalls or slow flight in the last four years, for example.

So I'd rather have a flight instructor who properly knows how to fly generally and can apply that experience to a Mooney than a random Mooney owner who's talked themselves into believing all sorts of special things about a Mooney because that's what they themselves were told and, you know, everyone likes to think they and their airplane are special.

Given the certification requirement that no airplane require "an unusual level of skill" I'm going to guess that Mooney's 50 hour course spent a fair amount of time re-teaching basic aircraft management skills that they found new Mooney owners were lacking.

If I'm looking for someone to help me get some confidence with the first few hours on type, the person I'm going to run from is the guy who tells me the type is "special" and he or she (alone) can show me how it should be done. The person I want is the one who says - "M20? Flies just like every other airplane in the world, using the same basic skills."

Yep. The 300 hr wonder with a new class 4 all on the mighty 172 knows everything and a greater teaching authority than your non instructor high time pilot with experience in dozens of types.

Respectfully....no.

Maybe your fresh faced class 4 can check out MU 2 pilots as well.

Oops that didn't work so good. This is why experience on type is so valuable.


And to answer the insurance question, the owners policy is in effect as long as and until the checkout is completed by a qualified pilot -- NOT an instructor but WITH time on type, or similiar. Insurance co. approves the checkout pilot and away you go.

As for mooneys...

http://airfactsjournal.com/2014/03/what ... ilots-lot/

I know what my choice would be.

A experienced pilot with time on type rather than a fresh class 4 with none. Why wouldn't I choose that? The OP's request for time on type is wise.

Perhaps instructors should make it a point to get time on different types and increase their value as teachers.

[Bede]

Rookie,

I've seen guys with lots of time who have terrible habits and shouldn't be flying and I've seen great class 4 instructors who fly well. I've also seen terrible class IV's and excellent high time guys.

I don't think you can generalize.

[photofly]

Respectfully what an utter, load of crap.

You do make me laugh when you get all... outraged, but it would be easier to take you seriously if you appeared actually to understand what I wrote.

Meanwhile, keep up the Mooney instruction, do. What else have you read?

[Rookie50]

Rookie,

I've seen guys with lots of time who have terrible habits and shouldn't be flying and I've seen great class 4 instructors who fly well. I've also seen terrible class IV's and excellent high time guys.

I don't think you can generalize.

Bede, that's a fair comment and of course you are correct. I mean ---- all things being equal --- I would prefer someone with time on type. Just lower risk to me.

By no means do I say, that is the sole qualification. I think a referral or recommendation to that person would be important too.

But the implication that the wisest default course of action for a pilot needing a checkout on say a SR22 turbo, would be to call up his friendly FTU and book time with a proficient class 4 whose sole time is on 172, doesn't make sense to me. Why would someone risk that? It's too big a jump for even an excellent class 4 with no time, IMO.

A checkout on a new type isn't teaching someone their CPL. They are already licensed. It's not (primarily) teaching good habits. That isn't the task requested. It's type specific training. So why not someone with time on type?

Insurance companies recognize this, which is why they commonly require time on type (or at least similiar)for the checkout pilot.

[photofly]

But the implication that the wisest default course of action for a pilot needing a checkout on say a SR22 turbo, would be to call up his friendly FTU and book time with a proficient class 4 whose sole time is on 172, doesn't make sense to me. Why would someone risk that? It's too big a jump for even an excellent class 4 with no time, IMO.

I am once again amused by your taking the opportunity to bash FTUs, but nobody is suggesting that's the wisest course of action.

Here's what I said:

So I'd rather have a flight instructor who properly knows how to fly generally and can apply that experience to a Mooney than a random Mooney owner who's talked themselves into believing all sorts of special things about a Mooney because that's what they themselves were told and, you know, everyone likes to think they and their airplane are special.

Your newly qualified class IV instructor doesn't necessarily meet the criteria of "knowing how to fly" and being able to "apply that experience to a Mooney". I want the instructor who does meet those criteria.

I do still want to hear what "type specific training" for a Mooney is though. Apparently they float like a motherfucker. I read that on the Internet. Anything else?

[Rookie50]

But the implication that the wisest default course of action for a pilot needing a checkout on say a SR22 turbo, would be to call up his friendly FTU and book time with a proficient class 4 whose sole time is on 172, doesn't make sense to me. Why would someone risk that? It's too big a jump for even an excellent class 4 with no time, IMO.

I am once again amused by your taking the opportunity to bash FTUs, but nobody is suggesting that's the wisest course of action.

Here's what I said:

So I'd rather have a flight instructor who properly knows how to fly generally and can apply that experience to a Mooney than a random Mooney owner who's talked themselves into believing all sorts of special things about a Mooney because that's what they themselves were told and, you know, everyone likes to think they and their airplane are special.

Your newly qualified class IV instructor doesn't meet those criteria.

Yeah, nice to leave that undefined. Put up your school logo...here.....

Perhaps I wouldn't bash the model if FTU instructors were required to have actual experience in subject matter being taught, like teaching IFR without one hour of actual IMC experience required, to name one. Gaining time on multiple types would be another.

[photofly]

Grammatical point:

"a flight instructor who properly knows how to fly generally and can apply that experience"

means something very different from

"a flight instructor, who properly knows how to fly generally, and can apply that experience"

Does that help with the anger management at your end?

[Rookie50]

Re-read.......

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 3&t=107700

goes right to the heart of the matter.