Mooney qualified instructor

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photofly
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by photofly »

I didn't read your thread a first time; why would I want to re-read it?
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by PilotDAR »

So we've degenerated Milotron's entirely reasonable inquiry into a spitting contest, which has a good theme of discussion being circled more than approached directly. But this is one way to learn, I suppose, throw truths and myths up into the air like autumn leaves, and pick through them as they fall to the ground...

IMHO, Bede has the best fact - you can't generalize [pilot skill and qualification].

Thereafter, I agree that an "instructor" has demonstrated their qualification to teach a prescribed curriculum to a minimum standard. The wise, new instructors know that they have met a minimum, and have a way to go before being truly useful as an educational inspiration, particularly on less common types.

A "type familiar" pilot may have a lot to offer, and may introduce bad habits as well, the net result could be positive or negative, and it will be really hard for the unfamiliar candidate pilot to recognize which.

I have never encountered a certified production single engine tricycle landplane which breathed fire, though, I have a couple of types to go, so maybe I have something to learn yet (my mind is open). It is unhelpful to suggest that a new(er) pilot does not need mentoring - if they want it, it should be cheerfully provided by a responsible fellow pilot with suitable skills. If it is type or class specific training, new instructors with no time on type/class, and aged single type pilots with horribly incestuous rusty piloting habits, should not apply to mentor type/class training!

Otherwise, I suggest that the need may best be met by a pilot (who might be an instructor, or commercial) who flies regularly on various types, has flown as a "co"pilot with other pilots in the recent past (to enable some rust removal), and has some experience on at least the class, if not specific type in question. The pilot around the airport, who flies several times a week, goes from type to type, and flies with other pilots is your best choice. Thereafter, the mentor pilot you would prefer might do the mentor flying to a modest curriculum, to be sure nothing is missed, or at the least will train with reference to the flight manual, to assure that the high points are covered, and reviewed/practiced in detail, if needed. Mentoring a new pilot by "winging it", is much less helpful to the possibly overwhelmed candidate pilot.

I think back to years ago, I fished with the boss for the privilege of flying the maintenance check flight in a Bellanca Viking, which had not flown in some time. He called my bluff, and said "go ahead". He and I both knew that I'd never flown one before. I read the flight manual, took my time, and did fine. A few snags required resolution, so several flights were needed. Then the boss said to me that I should get familiar with the plane, as I was now going to be asked to check out the new owner. I took it up again flew it near all of the "corners", then took it on a trip, so I would have recency and familiarity on it. Happily, the disciplines of flying that class of aircraft are common, and the differences are well described in the flight manual. I wrote out two pages of "little things" I had learned about the plane, for the reference of the new owner, in addition to the flight manual. I trained to both, and assured that they did not conflict. The checkout flying went along without trauma, though my candidate pilot was not class familiar, so it took a while...
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Rookie50 »

PD,

I'm quite comfortable with my choice for my last checkout of my friend, a 20k check captain with time on dozens of types. Funny enough, I recall he was concerned insurance may not approve him as his flight instructor rating wasn't current. BTW he is also a pretty humble and serious pilot. Funny how that works.

Somehow we survived, as I suspect people here seeking checkouts would with the many many high time commerical pilots on this board.

The notions expressed repeatedly on this site that a wide spectrum experience is worthless compared to a Flight Instructor Rating as a blanket measurement for teaching purposes is one I continue to disagree with.

High time commercial pilots who are in the left seat -- I suspect teaching is part of their job in any regard.

BPF said it well. A type checkout is a lot more than cows get bigger, cows get smaller, as has been learned through inadequate training methods on types like the MU 2 and Cirrus series. Obviously FTU level checkouts didn't cut it with the SR 22, no matter how skilled the instructor was on 172's. Accident rates were horrible and so Cirrus intervened with a training program, and those rates fell.

No where has anyone said choosing a pilot with time on type means blindly choosing the first pilot at the local airport with a Mooney in the hangar, either. I'm sure many licensed pilots know better than that, and don't need instead to blindly pick the first class whatever at the local FTU, falsely thinking that status will protect them.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

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The notions expressed repeatedly on this site that a wide spectrum experience is worthless compared to a Flight Instructor Rating as a blanket measurement for teaching purposes is one I continue to disagree with.
As you, I too greatly value a breadth of experience much more than a depth of experience in one specialty, or an "instructors" rating.

Our system seems to depend upon the "new" instructor as a stepping stone, as long as we understand that everyone has the right to be new at something, but they must approach with caution and extra humility while they are. Someone telling me that they are an instructor conveys to me that they have persevered in advancing their licensing, and good for them, but gaining experience, and the skills to type train beyond basic trainers is a separate and distinct "personal growth".
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by photofly »

Rookie50 wrote:PD,

I'm quite comfortable with my choice for my last checkout of my friend, a 20k check captain with time on dozens of types. Funny enough, I recall he was concerned insurance may not approve him as his flight instructor rating wasn't current.
So your checkout pilot had an instructor rating, did he? How interesting. And yet, as you put it, you survived.
The notions expressed repeatedly on this site that a wide spectrum experience is worthless compared to a Flight Instructor Rating as a blanket measurement for teaching purposes is one I continue to disagree with.
That notion hasn't been expressed even a single time in this thread. For that matter I don't recall reading it in any other thread, either. Feel free to continue to argue against it if you wish, though.
No where has anyone said choosing a pilot with time on type means blindly choosing the first pilot at the local airport with a Mooney in the hangar, either.
In fact that's what the OP asked for. I'm glad you agree it's not necessarily the right way to go.

Let's say you find your M20 owner, with a CPL, but he or she has never flown from the right seat. Would you trust them on their first flight in the right seat to rescue a poor landing by an inexperienced pilot on the left? What's the biggest category of pilots with experience of flying and supervising light aircraft from the right seat?
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by 2R »

My FAA CFI /CFII lesson plans for Mooney check out are in storage . I used to love flying the Mooney's .
You can fly perfect Chandelles and Lazy Eights in a Mooney .The push rod connections give instant feedback and allow for easy flying free from cable slack that some other small planes suffer from.

Lesson 1 : SHORT FINAL THREE GREEN
Lesson 2: SHORT FINAL THREE GREEN
The lessons end when the comfort level is achieved .
If you fail to point and check three green on short final and say loudly on short final " SHORT FINAL THREE GREEN"
I will not sign you off for the insurance check out .

Once you have been shown how easy the Mooney is to fly you will know "Why birds sing "
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Aviatard »

2R wrote:
Once you have been shown how easy the Mooney is to fly you will know "Why birds sing "
Yeah but don't they float a lot?
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by PilotDAR »

If you fail to point and check three green on short final and say loudly on short final " SHORT FINAL THREE GREEN"
I will not sign you off for the insurance check out .
Me too!

Though mine must be surface appropriate: "Wheels are up for landing on water/Wheels are down for landing on land". If you can't bring yourself to actually say that out loud, once per flight, you should stick to fixed gear planes.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Rookie50 »

PilotDAR wrote:
The notions expressed repeatedly on this site that a wide spectrum experience is worthless compared to a Flight Instructor Rating as a blanket measurement for teaching purposes is one I continue to disagree with.
As you, I too greatly value a breadth of experience much more than a depth of experience in one specialty, or an "instructors" rating.

Our system seems to depend upon the "new" instructor as a stepping stone, as long as we understand that everyone has the right to be new at something, but they must approach with caution and extra humility while they are. Someone telling me that they are an instructor conveys to me that they have persevered in advancing their licensing, and good for them, but gaining experience, and the skills to type train beyond basic trainers is a separate and distinct "personal growth".
PD,

Our system also promotes such fallicies that the Flight Instructor can be qualified as an Expert in safe IFR flight and the authority in teaching such procedures, safe habits, and everything the new IFR pilot needs to know -- so the FTU model would tell us -- all without that Instructor having logged a single hour of actual IMC themselves.

Isn't there a serious issue with that? And most FTU's would not tell students to seek outside mentorship that would cost training revenue. Dollars rule!

And if so, why would a Flight Instructor, with proficiency in right seat flying (only) a C 172, (which would be a fair assumption ) be remotely assumed to be able to control a SR22 from the right seat on takeoff or landing.

I seriously doubt they could -- and insurance companies recognize this and would not approve that Flight Instructor.

Our system may allow someone the right to be "new" at something but not at the same time claim any kind of real competence or experience beyond reality, simply by earning a rating. Even hours mean little if rather than 2000 hours it's 2 hours in the practice area and circuit repeated 1000 times.

This isn't bashing, BTW. It's realism.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Rookie50 wrote:PD,

The notions expressed repeatedly on this site that a wide spectrum experience is worthless compared to a Flight Instructor Rating as a blanket measurement for teaching purposes is one I continue to disagree with.
I have been reading and posting on Avcanada for over 12 years and I honestly can't recall even one post that argued that "wide spectrum experience is worthless compared to a Flight Instructor Rating", so I have to ask why you seem to have such a strong generalized low opinion of all pilots who hold a flight instructor rating ?

Anyway back to the matter at hand.

The perfect check pilot would be a highly respected current active Class 1 Flight Instructor who is also a long time Mooney M20K owner. Obviously the chance of finding that combination is not very high so it is really up to the OP to decide of the persons available how best to meet both insurance company requirements as well as a reasonable bit of type specific ownership and operational knowledge. This could involve a multi step process starting with an insurance approved instructor pilot and then some informal mentorship from an experienced Mooney owner pilot.

In any case I would suggest that you as the new owner has to be proactive in being part of the creation of a training program that will meet your needs.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Cat Driver »

!

Though mine must be surface appropriate: "Wheels are up for landing on water/Wheels are down for landing on land". If you can't bring yourself to actually say that out loud, once per flight, you should stick to fixed gear planes.
I have a before landing check that always works.

" Where am I landing, and where is my gear? "

Ask the question.....identify landing area....have correct gear position for the landing surface.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by milotron »

Thanks for all the interest. I have some PMs from some folks who should be able to help me out. It looks like I can get someone approved by the insurance underwriter and get the 'official' training under my belt. There is also some PPL guys around with time in Mooneys that I can work with afterwards, plus am looking at some of the more specific training with MAPA in the states, once I can actually fly my plane there.

It was a little surprising to see such enthusiast responses on this topic...thanks everybody.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Rookie50 »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:PD,

The notions expressed repeatedly on this site that a wide spectrum experience is worthless compared to a Flight Instructor Rating as a blanket measurement for teaching purposes is one I continue to disagree with.
I have been reading and posting on Avcanada for over 12 years and I honestly can't recall even one post that argued that "wide spectrum experience is worthless compared to a Flight Instructor Rating", so I have to ask why you seem to have such a strong generalized low opinion of all pilots who hold a flight instructor rating ?
.
I have seen several such posts, essentially saying any training from non - flight instructors, no matter how experienced the teaching pilot, is overtly "dangerous", and that mentors without the rating are incapable of teaching and assumed to be poor pilots.

Yes, we've been here before. My question back would be, why the nanny state attitude? Can't licensed pilots tell for themselves who is a safe mentor and who isn't? I'm lower time and I certainly can.

So my "low opinion" is not generalized but specific -- to the segment of the flight instructor world that disdains mentors with years -- decades -- of line experience --- (yes I've experienced that in person, too) --

Instructors WITH line experience they brought back to teaching -- I hold great respect for. 2 of mine fell into that category, and it added immensely to the quality of their training, IMO.

I feel there are parallels in my industry to top school MBA's who think they know it all (they are everywhere). Don't even know, what they don't even know. They disdain the older guys, without MBA's but with decades of experience -- and the track record too.

Not trying to offend simply relating my observations.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by C-GKNT »

I have added 2 friends to the insurance on my Mooney over the years. For the first one, I had about 750 hours in my Mooney but as I was a lowly PPL I had to checkout a local instructor who then gave a checkout to my friend. The next time, a couple years later, I had my CPL and they let me do the checkout.

Glenn
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

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I must admit I have been unable to make the Mooney float on landing ,although I have seen some fella's who have mastered that technique.

I just fly it on . Learn to fly an airplane on the runway in the direction of travel and you will never fear cross winds again . They came out to watch me crash in a 50 knot cross wind in St.George as nobody they knew flew in x-winds that strong. Strongest headwind I landed in was well over that and the nearest weather was reporting seventy knots at Cape Lazo. It was bumpy and not much fun.
Flying should be fun.

Did you do a drag demonstration in your check out ?
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

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So my "low opinion" is not generalized but specific -- to the segment of the flight instructor world that disdains mentors with years -- decades -- of line experience --
Your opinion is generalized in that in most of your posts it doesn't come across that you feel that there is only a specific segment of instructors that feel the way you think they do, but rather it comes across that ALL instructors feel that way.

FWIW, There can be no generalizations to be made with "experience" and ability to mentor. There is however differing attitudes to flying. I've run into a lot of high time or with experience you'd call more valuable, who can't teach worth beans, just like I've run into lots of instructor rating holders who can't either. The curve for the spread of potential teachers with respect to their ability seems somewhat flat instead of the bell one would expect.

When it comes to type conversion type learning, I don't think experience on type is all that important, but rather general skill and knowledge. I personally prefer pilot generalists as opposed to specialists, but that's just me. Specialization is for insects.

On the topic of Mooneys, they're just airplanes. If you have problems "floating" in one, you probably have problems floating in any airplane. Like any airplane, or vehicle for that matter, the faster it is, the farther ahead you have to be thinking. To dispel a few other myths while we're at it, a stall in a mooney isn't instant death, there is no "special" technique for landing, and it doesn't require a special twenty page checklist. Also I have trouble believing the one I heard about them being harder to land than a Learjet, but since I haven't flown a Lear, I guess that remains untested. I reserve the right to remain skeptical.

If anything, any type familiarization on one should mainly involve any specific systems regarding fuel and engine. Off hand the only odd ball things I can think of are the manual landing gear types. Some reading on the subject might require more. I recommend perusing Essco.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

I think the type specific knowledge value is important but more in the context of ownership, rather than the pure piloting piece.

If I was doing a check out on a M20K, and yes I have flown this model, most of what I would talk about would be centered on engine handling. This is one airplane where your cost of ownership is going to be directly and dramatically affected by how you handle the engine, especially if it still as the original GB1 engine. Fortunately most have been updated to the LB1 variant which is better, but still unforgiving of poor engine handling practices. Even those updated with a VAP turbocharger controller, The Merlyn conversion, still require care.

However no one has all the answers and so I would encourage the OP to consult widely both on the net as well as with actual owners of similar aircraft and I think broad themes of what works and what doesn't work will become obvious.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

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I think the type specific knowledge value is important but more in the context of ownership, rather than the pure piloting piece.
True, in that regard though I would cast a wider net, and advise anyone to do a lot of critical thinking on anything they might come across. Use Occam's Razor mercilessly if anything seems overly weird or complicated.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

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and advise anyone to do a lot of critical thinking on anything they might come across
Is this with respect to the ingredients of the laundry detergent you're considering purchasing? Or your preference for the American's next choice for President? Oh, wait, we're talking about piloting...

A "new" pilot on type/class is probably poorly positioned to critically consider the skill set of potential mentors. We already have the insurance provider muddying the waters by playing the "instructor" card, probably with little practical value in this situation, and now even we can't seem to agree on how to quantify mentor pilot skills - how could the new guy? I could use enough techy pilot talk to convince many a fancy single owner that I have what it takes to fly their plane, and yet many a really good pilot could teach me a thing or two about doing it better. I could help, others could help better. As for "instructor" - I'm not one of those.

The ability to handle a "Mooney" class plane well is probably best the result of building blocks of skills gained along the way by the new pilot. However, sometimes that pilot it thrown into the deep end, with a slippery turbo RG plane with complex radios, all at once. That pilot may as well apply themselves, study up, and allow some extra training time. It is possible that the best pilot to mentor one of those characteristics, might not be the best to mentor another. Happily "safe" is adequate for this.

If the proposed mentor pilot is awesome turbo pilot, but with little RG time, or great with slinky planes, but with little turbo time, it's best to approach those elements of the mentoring more slowly, and with an open briefing. I have mentored pilots on types in which I myself had low experience, and I declared this before hand. These were not safety considerations, as much as "handling", as others have mentioned. Get it wrong, or worse train it wrong, and maintenance costs go up, not really safety going down. In my case, I just applied general cautions I know about these delicate systems, and took things slowly. The insurer could care less how well you were mentored in terms of "care for the plane", just rather did you learn the discipline to assure that the wheels were down for every runway landing, and could you keep it on the centerline!

So the basic skills of flying safely are probably within the "instructor's" mentoring capability - go for it, that's what your insurer is asking for. BUT, while you're doing that, assure that you are already aware to not, and not let the instructor, shock cool it, over speed it, jam the gear, or cool a turbo on shutdown. That's where your "experienced" type pilot, who has poor "instructing" skills may still be of great value!

Maybe "experienced" PPL, who lacks the training in adult learning outcomes, and can't articulate teaching techniques well, can be super at explaining that when you are rough or "quick" on the fancy plane, it could be abu$ive. For my experience, "instructors" tend to be less good at this - ride it hard, and put it away wet, it's a training tool - someone else is paying for it... Well, it is a training tool today, but someone's expensive equipment tomorrow. We (the industry) also want the new owner to be pleased with their new ride, so they continue as "one of us", and grow our pastime along with us.

Pilots who are poorly mentored might induce their own more costly maintenance and early replacement - and end up posting here about the surprise cost of a broken exhaust stud, while having to change out a part earlier than expected. Usually when I am mentoring/type training, it is for the new owner, and on behalf of the vendor, maintainer or insurer - thus I have more than one interested party in the outcome of my training effort. If my effort is inadequate, the new pilot is not happy with their purchase, and the objective was not well met - and I do not get invited back!

I once had a new owner to type train on a fancy six place low wing single (requested by the vendor and the insurer). Nice fellow, inadequate pilot for the type. After 19 hours of flying with him, I recognized that I did not have what it would take to fill the training gap. He would not learn the nuances of a high performance plane, if the basics of flying were a challenge to him. I politely recommended "instructor" type flying instruction (which I doubt he would find on type), and said that I would not be able to write a letter to his insurer.

Thus I appreciate the role of an "instructor", and the value of a type experienced pilot to mentor - and, likely they are not the same person in respect of a Mooney! In any case, the new pilot will have a terrible time sorting out those skills as he could need them, while looking in the "experience" window from outside!
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Is this with respect to the ingredients of the laundry detergent you're considering purchasing? Or your preference for the American's next choice for President? Oh, wait, we're talking about piloting...
Well... its applicable to all those things. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and all that. In respect to airplanes, Mooneys in particular, there's a whole mythos that's grown up around them. Why birds sing? Please. That's advice for the layman: think for yourself and don't take anything anyone says as gospel. Be critical, ask questions. If an "expert" hasn't a clue why they do something, its possible and probable, that its been passed down without further investigation. That doesn't mean its wrong, but its probably somewhere in between.

The newbie definitely has a minefield to negotiate.
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