Mooney qualified instructor

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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by 2R » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:56 am

My FAA CFI /CFII lesson plans for Mooney check out are in storage . I used to love flying the Mooney's .
You can fly perfect Chandelles and Lazy Eights in a Mooney .The push rod connections give instant feedback and allow for easy flying free from cable slack that some other small planes suffer from.

Lesson 1 : SHORT FINAL THREE GREEN
Lesson 2: SHORT FINAL THREE GREEN
The lessons end when the comfort level is achieved .
If you fail to point and check three green on short final and say loudly on short final " SHORT FINAL THREE GREEN"
I will not sign you off for the insurance check out .

Once you have been shown how easy the Mooney is to fly you will know "Why birds sing "
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Aviatard » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:17 am

2R wrote:
Once you have been shown how easy the Mooney is to fly you will know "Why birds sing "
Yeah but don't they float a lot?
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by PilotDAR » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:42 am

If you fail to point and check three green on short final and say loudly on short final " SHORT FINAL THREE GREEN"
I will not sign you off for the insurance check out .
Me too!

Though mine must be surface appropriate: "Wheels are up for landing on water/Wheels are down for landing on land". If you can't bring yourself to actually say that out loud, once per flight, you should stick to fixed gear planes.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Rookie50 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:15 pm

PilotDAR wrote:
The notions expressed repeatedly on this site that a wide spectrum experience is worthless compared to a Flight Instructor Rating as a blanket measurement for teaching purposes is one I continue to disagree with.
As you, I too greatly value a breadth of experience much more than a depth of experience in one specialty, or an "instructors" rating.

Our system seems to depend upon the "new" instructor as a stepping stone, as long as we understand that everyone has the right to be new at something, but they must approach with caution and extra humility while they are. Someone telling me that they are an instructor conveys to me that they have persevered in advancing their licensing, and good for them, but gaining experience, and the skills to type train beyond basic trainers is a separate and distinct "personal growth".
PD,

Our system also promotes such fallicies that the Flight Instructor can be qualified as an Expert in safe IFR flight and the authority in teaching such procedures, safe habits, and everything the new IFR pilot needs to know -- so the FTU model would tell us -- all without that Instructor having logged a single hour of actual IMC themselves.

Isn't there a serious issue with that? And most FTU's would not tell students to seek outside mentorship that would cost training revenue. Dollars rule!

And if so, why would a Flight Instructor, with proficiency in right seat flying (only) a C 172, (which would be a fair assumption ) be remotely assumed to be able to control a SR22 from the right seat on takeoff or landing.

I seriously doubt they could -- and insurance companies recognize this and would not approve that Flight Instructor.

Our system may allow someone the right to be "new" at something but not at the same time claim any kind of real competence or experience beyond reality, simply by earning a rating. Even hours mean little if rather than 2000 hours it's 2 hours in the practice area and circuit repeated 1000 times.

This isn't bashing, BTW. It's realism.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:44 pm

Rookie50 wrote:PD,

The notions expressed repeatedly on this site that a wide spectrum experience is worthless compared to a Flight Instructor Rating as a blanket measurement for teaching purposes is one I continue to disagree with.
I have been reading and posting on Avcanada for over 12 years and I honestly can't recall even one post that argued that "wide spectrum experience is worthless compared to a Flight Instructor Rating", so I have to ask why you seem to have such a strong generalized low opinion of all pilots who hold a flight instructor rating ?

Anyway back to the matter at hand.

The perfect check pilot would be a highly respected current active Class 1 Flight Instructor who is also a long time Mooney M20K owner. Obviously the chance of finding that combination is not very high so it is really up to the OP to decide of the persons available how best to meet both insurance company requirements as well as a reasonable bit of type specific ownership and operational knowledge. This could involve a multi step process starting with an insurance approved instructor pilot and then some informal mentorship from an experienced Mooney owner pilot.

In any case I would suggest that you as the new owner has to be proactive in being part of the creation of a training program that will meet your needs.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:58 pm

!

Though mine must be surface appropriate: "Wheels are up for landing on water/Wheels are down for landing on land". If you can't bring yourself to actually say that out loud, once per flight, you should stick to fixed gear planes.
I have a before landing check that always works.

" Where am I landing, and where is my gear? "

Ask the question.....identify landing area....have correct gear position for the landing surface.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by milotron » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:24 pm

Thanks for all the interest. I have some PMs from some folks who should be able to help me out. It looks like I can get someone approved by the insurance underwriter and get the 'official' training under my belt. There is also some PPL guys around with time in Mooneys that I can work with afterwards, plus am looking at some of the more specific training with MAPA in the states, once I can actually fly my plane there.

It was a little surprising to see such enthusiast responses on this topic...thanks everybody.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Rookie50 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:55 pm

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:PD,

The notions expressed repeatedly on this site that a wide spectrum experience is worthless compared to a Flight Instructor Rating as a blanket measurement for teaching purposes is one I continue to disagree with.
I have been reading and posting on Avcanada for over 12 years and I honestly can't recall even one post that argued that "wide spectrum experience is worthless compared to a Flight Instructor Rating", so I have to ask why you seem to have such a strong generalized low opinion of all pilots who hold a flight instructor rating ?
.
I have seen several such posts, essentially saying any training from non - flight instructors, no matter how experienced the teaching pilot, is overtly "dangerous", and that mentors without the rating are incapable of teaching and assumed to be poor pilots.

Yes, we've been here before. My question back would be, why the nanny state attitude? Can't licensed pilots tell for themselves who is a safe mentor and who isn't? I'm lower time and I certainly can.

So my "low opinion" is not generalized but specific -- to the segment of the flight instructor world that disdains mentors with years -- decades -- of line experience --- (yes I've experienced that in person, too) --

Instructors WITH line experience they brought back to teaching -- I hold great respect for. 2 of mine fell into that category, and it added immensely to the quality of their training, IMO.

I feel there are parallels in my industry to top school MBA's who think they know it all (they are everywhere). Don't even know, what they don't even know. They disdain the older guys, without MBA's but with decades of experience -- and the track record too.

Not trying to offend simply relating my observations.
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Last edited by Rookie50 on Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by C-GKNT » Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:38 pm

I have added 2 friends to the insurance on my Mooney over the years. For the first one, I had about 750 hours in my Mooney but as I was a lowly PPL I had to checkout a local instructor who then gave a checkout to my friend. The next time, a couple years later, I had my CPL and they let me do the checkout.

Glenn
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by 2R » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:53 am

I must admit I have been unable to make the Mooney float on landing ,although I have seen some fella's who have mastered that technique.

I just fly it on . Learn to fly an airplane on the runway in the direction of travel and you will never fear cross winds again . They came out to watch me crash in a 50 knot cross wind in St.George as nobody they knew flew in x-winds that strong. Strongest headwind I landed in was well over that and the nearest weather was reporting seventy knots at Cape Lazo. It was bumpy and not much fun.
Flying should be fun.

Did you do a drag demonstration in your check out ?
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Shiny Side Up » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:18 am

So my "low opinion" is not generalized but specific -- to the segment of the flight instructor world that disdains mentors with years -- decades -- of line experience --
Your opinion is generalized in that in most of your posts it doesn't come across that you feel that there is only a specific segment of instructors that feel the way you think they do, but rather it comes across that ALL instructors feel that way.

FWIW, There can be no generalizations to be made with "experience" and ability to mentor. There is however differing attitudes to flying. I've run into a lot of high time or with experience you'd call more valuable, who can't teach worth beans, just like I've run into lots of instructor rating holders who can't either. The curve for the spread of potential teachers with respect to their ability seems somewhat flat instead of the bell one would expect.

When it comes to type conversion type learning, I don't think experience on type is all that important, but rather general skill and knowledge. I personally prefer pilot generalists as opposed to specialists, but that's just me. Specialization is for insects.

On the topic of Mooneys, they're just airplanes. If you have problems "floating" in one, you probably have problems floating in any airplane. Like any airplane, or vehicle for that matter, the faster it is, the farther ahead you have to be thinking. To dispel a few other myths while we're at it, a stall in a mooney isn't instant death, there is no "special" technique for landing, and it doesn't require a special twenty page checklist. Also I have trouble believing the one I heard about them being harder to land than a Learjet, but since I haven't flown a Lear, I guess that remains untested. I reserve the right to remain skeptical.

If anything, any type familiarization on one should mainly involve any specific systems regarding fuel and engine. Off hand the only odd ball things I can think of are the manual landing gear types. Some reading on the subject might require more. I recommend perusing Essco.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:54 am

I think the type specific knowledge value is important but more in the context of ownership, rather than the pure piloting piece.

If I was doing a check out on a M20K, and yes I have flown this model, most of what I would talk about would be centered on engine handling. This is one airplane where your cost of ownership is going to be directly and dramatically affected by how you handle the engine, especially if it still as the original GB1 engine. Fortunately most have been updated to the LB1 variant which is better, but still unforgiving of poor engine handling practices. Even those updated with a VAP turbocharger controller, The Merlyn conversion, still require care.

However no one has all the answers and so I would encourage the OP to consult widely both on the net as well as with actual owners of similar aircraft and I think broad themes of what works and what doesn't work will become obvious.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Shiny Side Up » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:25 pm

I think the type specific knowledge value is important but more in the context of ownership, rather than the pure piloting piece.
True, in that regard though I would cast a wider net, and advise anyone to do a lot of critical thinking on anything they might come across. Use Occam's Razor mercilessly if anything seems overly weird or complicated.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by PilotDAR » Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:46 pm

and advise anyone to do a lot of critical thinking on anything they might come across
Is this with respect to the ingredients of the laundry detergent you're considering purchasing? Or your preference for the American's next choice for President? Oh, wait, we're talking about piloting...

A "new" pilot on type/class is probably poorly positioned to critically consider the skill set of potential mentors. We already have the insurance provider muddying the waters by playing the "instructor" card, probably with little practical value in this situation, and now even we can't seem to agree on how to quantify mentor pilot skills - how could the new guy? I could use enough techy pilot talk to convince many a fancy single owner that I have what it takes to fly their plane, and yet many a really good pilot could teach me a thing or two about doing it better. I could help, others could help better. As for "instructor" - I'm not one of those.

The ability to handle a "Mooney" class plane well is probably best the result of building blocks of skills gained along the way by the new pilot. However, sometimes that pilot it thrown into the deep end, with a slippery turbo RG plane with complex radios, all at once. That pilot may as well apply themselves, study up, and allow some extra training time. It is possible that the best pilot to mentor one of those characteristics, might not be the best to mentor another. Happily "safe" is adequate for this.

If the proposed mentor pilot is awesome turbo pilot, but with little RG time, or great with slinky planes, but with little turbo time, it's best to approach those elements of the mentoring more slowly, and with an open briefing. I have mentored pilots on types in which I myself had low experience, and I declared this before hand. These were not safety considerations, as much as "handling", as others have mentioned. Get it wrong, or worse train it wrong, and maintenance costs go up, not really safety going down. In my case, I just applied general cautions I know about these delicate systems, and took things slowly. The insurer could care less how well you were mentored in terms of "care for the plane", just rather did you learn the discipline to assure that the wheels were down for every runway landing, and could you keep it on the centerline!

So the basic skills of flying safely are probably within the "instructor's" mentoring capability - go for it, that's what your insurer is asking for. BUT, while you're doing that, assure that you are already aware to not, and not let the instructor, shock cool it, over speed it, jam the gear, or cool a turbo on shutdown. That's where your "experienced" type pilot, who has poor "instructing" skills may still be of great value!

Maybe "experienced" PPL, who lacks the training in adult learning outcomes, and can't articulate teaching techniques well, can be super at explaining that when you are rough or "quick" on the fancy plane, it could be abu$ive. For my experience, "instructors" tend to be less good at this - ride it hard, and put it away wet, it's a training tool - someone else is paying for it... Well, it is a training tool today, but someone's expensive equipment tomorrow. We (the industry) also want the new owner to be pleased with their new ride, so they continue as "one of us", and grow our pastime along with us.

Pilots who are poorly mentored might induce their own more costly maintenance and early replacement - and end up posting here about the surprise cost of a broken exhaust stud, while having to change out a part earlier than expected. Usually when I am mentoring/type training, it is for the new owner, and on behalf of the vendor, maintainer or insurer - thus I have more than one interested party in the outcome of my training effort. If my effort is inadequate, the new pilot is not happy with their purchase, and the objective was not well met - and I do not get invited back!

I once had a new owner to type train on a fancy six place low wing single (requested by the vendor and the insurer). Nice fellow, inadequate pilot for the type. After 19 hours of flying with him, I recognized that I did not have what it would take to fill the training gap. He would not learn the nuances of a high performance plane, if the basics of flying were a challenge to him. I politely recommended "instructor" type flying instruction (which I doubt he would find on type), and said that I would not be able to write a letter to his insurer.

Thus I appreciate the role of an "instructor", and the value of a type experienced pilot to mentor - and, likely they are not the same person in respect of a Mooney! In any case, the new pilot will have a terrible time sorting out those skills as he could need them, while looking in the "experience" window from outside!
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Shiny Side Up » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:07 pm

Is this with respect to the ingredients of the laundry detergent you're considering purchasing? Or your preference for the American's next choice for President? Oh, wait, we're talking about piloting...
Well... its applicable to all those things. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and all that. In respect to airplanes, Mooneys in particular, there's a whole mythos that's grown up around them. Why birds sing? Please. That's advice for the layman: think for yourself and don't take anything anyone says as gospel. Be critical, ask questions. If an "expert" hasn't a clue why they do something, its possible and probable, that its been passed down without further investigation. That doesn't mean its wrong, but its probably somewhere in between.

The newbie definitely has a minefield to negotiate.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:15 pm

I think we are approaching a "better is the enemy of good enough" moment. Transitioning to a Mooney is not rocket science. However like most things in aviation a bit of help before you you jump into something new, whether that is a new airplane or a new type of flying, is usually helpful.

With respect to finding someone....well all the local guy/gals will have a reputation, good or bad, and that with a little asking around, will become evident. As for the actual checkout the best thing you can do is ask "why" questions. This is both very useful for your understanding as well as good test of your mentor. The quality of the answer will give you a good idea of how much weight to put on what you hear. A poseur can may baffle with BS for awhile but silly ideas will eventually fall on their internal inconsistencies.

Finally an instructor rating is often specified for type checks because it represents a known set of qualifications for the insurance company rep, which makes his/her life easier. That been said I have seen many instances where a pilot has asked that a particular check pilot who was not an instructor be approved, including PPL's. After submitting a pilot history form and an explaination letter, they were AFAIK all approved.
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Re: Mooney qualified instructor

Post by Rookie50 » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:20 pm

I think in some respects there are 2 separate topics being discussed here.

In my comments I am assuming a pilot moving up to a new type is equal to the task, can handle the speed / complexity, and in that case a -- well recommended! --- experienced pilot on type can assist and mentor with the transition.

IMO that person need not be an instructor on primary flight skills, as those are assumed to be there and competent for that class of aircraft. Therefore systems and procedural knowledge may be all the primary mentoring required. Each situation and need is different.

It's clear from the comments those skills are not always there for the class of aircraft, therefore that is a different discussion in which an experienced flight instructor capable of the transition training but also with strong primary flight skills training is required. Different training need, different answer.

Perhaps it depends much on both the learning pilots experience and also size of the jump in class.

I am a believer in aviation as a slow learning apprenticeship, and that low time private pilots (like me) should be a million miles "ahead" of the aircraft they are flying before moving up, regardless of financial resources, as the best chance to become old pilots.

Both training resources have value. IE, During my IFR, I had great instructors, but also learned an unbelievable amount from a mentor friend -- simply a cautious, methodical, experienced PPL -- by right seating on a couple of trips in his plane, and seeing how he performed his procedures.
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