By the way, that particular flight school would not teach wheel landings because (they said) too many students were putting the prop tips into the asphalt.

With the exception of the extreme taildragger operations seen on the Valdez Alaska STOL competitions, I have never heard of a prop touching the ground during an otherwise normal wheel landing. I wheel land every taildrgger I fly, I simply find it easier to control the aircraft, easier to see where I'm going, and it saves needless wear and tear on the tailwheel.

There are those who will tell you that you have better steering control with the tailwheel on. At speeds slower than 15 MPH, I would agree. At speeds faster than 15 MPH, it's the rudder doing the steering, not the tailwheel anyway. I have proven this to myself with glare ice lake crosswind landings, where I was entirely able to maintain my heading with zero tailwheel friction, until slower than 15 MPH (when I could not hold the tail off anyway).

If a flying school cannot or will not train both types of landings, that is important information for the student in choosing to learn to fly taildragger there.

I wheel land every taildrgger I fly, I simply find it easier to control the aircraft, easier to see where I'm going, and it saves needless wear and tear on the tailwheel.

Same here except I find it easier to three point the Pitts.

Anyone who claims three point landings give better control do not know how to fly a tail wheel airplane.

Any school that does not teach wheel landings should be avoided like the plague because the rest of their training has to be the same....not acceptable due to ignorance on the part of the instructors.

Hi everybody,
I want to thank everybody for all the info and experiences you have shared. That really helps!
The teaching of both three-points and wheel landings was one of the criteria I used to select the school and I asked in advance if they were teaching both. The boss of the school told me they do... I hope I won't be disappointed.
I also asked how much off-airport operation they include in the PPL training and I was pleased knowing that, depending on my skills and attitude, beach and river landings are usually part of the training! That does sound promising doesn't it?
I also asked a bit about how many hours the instructors have on the Citabria and none of the three has less than 100 hrs of instructing on type.

Fingers crossed everything will be fine... For the moment I got the books to start studying properly.

When you have been well trained in a taildragger, you will be comfortable landing on one main wheel only, holding the aircraft that way, and going around without ever touching other wheels. Mastering this skill is an important element in being confident in crosswind operations.

Cat Driver wrote:
I counted down the height verbally from fifty feet to wheel contact, that really helped them get the picture...and I explained there they should be looking at each part of the approach, flare, hold off and touch down..

I'm no instructor, but I think Cat's comment is golden. I struggled with landings during my training, and i think if my instructor had done what Cat does, it would have helped me tremendously "get the picture".

Thanks Cat Driver!

You are welcome.

The reason most flight instructors at FTU's do not teach students how to judge their height above the runway is because no one ever taught them.

They use the when I get near the ground I bring the nose up to what looks like the right attitude to prevent it from crashing into the earth and then wait until it contacts the runway somewhere down the runway.

That is not teaching landing it is teaching arriving.

Did your instructors tell you to look at the far end of the runway during the latter part of the approach and during the landing?

Cat Driver wrote:Did your instructors tell you to look at the far end of the runway during the latter part of the approach and during the landing?

They damn well better have, seeing as it is in the Flight Instructor Guide.

Ex. 18: Advice to Instructors:

(6) During the landing, make sure the student looks far enough ahead of the aircraft to properly appreciate both the forward, vertical and possible lateral modeming in relation to the runway.

Now, mind you, that doesn't exactly get the point across. And the Flight Training Manual is a bit vague about judging height, etc, when it comes to landing.

I was taught that you're initial aiming point on landing is the runway numbers or threshold. As you overfly said initial aiming point, you need to look well ahead - to the far end of the runway (unless you want to smack into the runway). Also, by transitioning between the numbers and the far end of the runway, you will have the natural tendency to add a bit of back pressure.

(12) The change of attitude of the aircraft to bring about the required round-out and subsequent hold-off to touchdown must be judged by visual reference to the ground rather than by mechanical movements of the control column. This must be demonstrated sufficiently and consistently by the instructor until the student observes the clues which enable personal decisions to be made.

The problem many people have when landing is fishing around for a "greaser". You'll watch them stirring the yoke or stick around fighting to find that magic spot. More often than not, just freeze the damn controls, and you'll end up with a lovely landing. Unless of course you are dealing with a crosswind or gusty conditions, then adjustments will be necessary.

I was taught that you're initial aiming point on landing is the runway numbers or threshold. As you overfly said initial aiming point, you need to look well ahead - to the far end of the runway (unless you want to smack into the runway).

......................................

I can't get the quote to work, but I do want to answer your comment.

You were taught wrong.

I have spent decades fixing this problem of where to look when giving advanced flight training all over the world.

I have written several detailed explanations of where one should be looking during the approach and landing and the far end of the runway is not where you should be looking at any part of either the approach or landing.

To be able to accurately judge height during and after the round out you need to be looking down the runway where apparent movement of the runway ceases to move towards you, this will change with speed, flying light trainers it is about five hundred feet.

There is a detailed piece I wrote on Pprune some years ago that clearly explains the issue of where to look.

Not once not ever did I find a pilot who was not convinced that using my method of judging height did not improve their depth and closing rate perception.

And many, many of my clients were airline Captains.

*****************************************

To support my qualifications regarding height and closure rate judgement it was learned from seven years of Aerial Application flying, fifteen years Fire bombing as Captain and eight years as a airdisplay pilot at airshows in Europe

And my airdisplay license was unlimited..in other words there was no height or other limits on it.

Also I have been teaching flying since 1956 I think was the year I got my first instructors rating.

7ECA...

Please do not take my comments as a personal attack on you.

I only try and give good advice based on what I was taught by others and what I learned through decades of high risk flying jobs.

Here is a post someone wrote on Pprune..

Old 3rd Sep 2014, 02:25 #24 (permalink)


Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Around the corner
Posts: 114

. was the only guy I met in my flying carrier who could properly teach landings. Before you stone me on this forum, realize, that I am not saying that he is the only guy who can teach landings properly. I only said he is the only guy I met in my 10000 hrs of flying who could do it. Thanks to him I can relieve the suffering of many post-traumatic-airline-training-department-disorders.
Airline instructor, unless he she has a previous instructing background, is just trained to recognise somebody's mistakes, but is not equipped with the tools
How to fix them. Airline instructor was not even trained to give instrument rating or a licence. Just renew it.airline instructor can only give a type rating to pilots, who are supposed to know how to fly. And now we get the co pilots with 150 hrs total (60 hrs actual flight time). Coming in. They don't even have a license to take their mother up in a Cessna on a nice Sunday afternoon. And these guys are the future instructor pool. So that is the reason we have all these "arrivals". Of course everybody makes mistakes sometime and that is normal. But to many airline guys the last 50 feet of flight is a mystery even more compounded by the educationally non-equipped training departments. So they know only firm landing as opposed to long greaser. Not too many seem to know you can still land nicely right at the touch down zone.
Who is gonna cast the first stone?

Cat Driver wrote:7ECA...

Please do not take my comments as a personal attack on you.

I only try and give good advice based on what I was taught by others and what I learned through decades of high risk flying jobs.

Here is a post someone wrote on Pprune..

Old 3rd Sep 2014, 02:25 #24 (permalink)


Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Around the corner
Posts: 114

. was the only guy I met in my flying carrier who could properly teach landings. Before you stone me on this forum, realize, that I am not saying that he is the only guy who can teach landings properly. I only said he is the only guy I met in my 10000 hrs of flying who could do it. Thanks to him I can relieve the suffering of many post-traumatic-airline-training-department-disorders.
Airline instructor, unless he she has a previous instructing background, is just trained to recognise somebody's mistakes, but is not equipped with the tools
How to fix them. Airline instructor was not even trained to give instrument rating or a licence. Just renew it.airline instructor can only give a type rating to pilots, who are supposed to know how to fly. And now we get the co pilots with 150 hrs total (60 hrs actual flight time). Coming in. They don't even have a license to take their mother up in a Cessna on a nice Sunday afternoon. And these guys are the future instructor pool. So that is the reason we have all these "arrivals". Of course everybody makes mistakes sometime and that is normal. But to many airline guys the last 50 feet of flight is a mystery even more compounded by the educationally non-equipped training departments. So they know only firm landing as opposed to long greaser. Not too many seem to know you can still land nicely right at the touch down zone.
Who is gonna cast the first stone?

Does that mean landing on US navy ships; or flying for remuneration?
/kidding

Had to google-fu that post on pprune regarding judging the flare. In an instructor renewal course a few years back, the apparent movement was one of the things discussed in what makes landings safer and how to teach them.

Sorry to bump this thread, but I wanted to ask about the school.

How are they doing? Is it a good place to do CPL/IR program, I am interested in their ATPL 3 year diploma.