Buying a plane for training

[clairvoyant]

Folks, I have to deviate this subject a bit and I apologize in advance.
I know many people in the states form corporations or Limited Liability Company (LLC) to register their aircraft for training, personal usages, and business usages and also to minimize any liability/damage risk (aircraft clipping someone's house, etc.) and tax shelters.
Are there similar processes in Canada?
If so, where can I find them (aviation lawyers, definite step by step processes, someone who has experience/has done it before)?
So far, those COPA reading materials vaguely describe any ownership process.
I am based on CYRP so any help within the local vicinity is greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[photofly]

I don't know if this applies to you but if you're training for a PPL or recreational permit in Canada you can't use an aircraft owned by a corporation or company in Canada, even if you own that corporation or company.

Also if the aircraft is owned by a company or corporation any fines for CARs violations against the operator are five times higher than for aircraft owned by an individual. Unlikely to be a problem, but just so you know.

[5x5]

Personally, I would advise anyone thinking of buying a personal airplane to think of it as "How much money can you afford to lose?" Not suggesting that you will suffer financially, but you have to be prepared for that possibility. Some people reportedly have done well, but most of those stories are from the past and in the 80's and 90's used aircraft were appreciating quite nicely. That started to slow and reverse once aircraft companies started producing light aircraft again.

With any financial investment, there is always a possibility for loss and I believe any reasonable person should be prepared to accept a potential loss, possibly quite sizeable.

[Beefitarian]

5x5 is right. When Cessna first started building 172s in the 1990s they were expensive. That initially caused the price of used ones to increase. Once it became obvious that a new plane is not a 30+ year old plane the prices came back down. That is good for buying but these days flying is so expensive you really need to be committed to buy a plane. So the market keeps shrinking. That makes re-sale more difficult.

You have to be willing to buy and keep a plane because you might have decide between, keep it or sell for much less than you bought it for. Even if you invested thousands of dollars to fix it while you owned it.

I know because I have a three ton truck in my yard that is very low usage but I can't find anyone willing to buy it for near what I paid.

[Cat Driver]

As a general comment I would suggest that using a deliberate spin entry technique in an aircraft not certified for spins is not a good idea especially for inexperienced pilots.

But you see nothing wrong with ending upside down in a twin when a single engine practice went wrong and recovering by doing a split S though?

Try as I might B.P.F. I just can not imagine thinking that is a good idea.

[praveen4143]

As a general comment I would suggest that using a deliberate spin entry technique in an aircraft not certified for spins is not a good idea especially for inexperienced pilots.

But you see nothing wrong with ending upside down in a twin when a single engine practice went wrong and recovering by doing a split S though?

Try as I might B.P.F. I just can not imagine thinking that is a good idea.

That's not a fair comparison. He clearly mentioned in the post that when he had to do the split S, he felt that he had no other option. At the end of the day, he decided to do that as PIC and he survived because of it. This isn't too much unlike what you as PIC try to spin a non-certified aircraft.

Additionally, you're suggesting doing an intentional spin in a non-certified aircraft, thereby voiding C of A and insurance. Considering the anonymous nature of this forum, I don't think this is such a bright idea as you do not know what the skill level is of the person sitting at the other end of the computer screen and whether this person is indeed capable of doing it without hurting airplane or self.

[clairvoyant]

It somewhat applies to me. I have my CPL. I am working on my multi and IFR.
I couldn't find anywhere of CARs violations and five times higher infractions. Did I miss something?
Does COPA provide legal services for its members regarding those CARs violations?
Thank You

I don't know if this applies to you but if you're training for a PPL or recreational permit in Canada you can't use an aircraft owned by a corporation or company in Canada, even if you own that corporation or company.

Also if the aircraft is owned by a company or corporation any fines for CARs violations against the operator are five times higher than for aircraft owned by an individual. Unlikely to be a problem, but just so you know.

[Cat Driver]

That's not a fair comparison. He clearly mentioned in the post that when he had to do the split S, he felt that he had no other option. At the end of the day, he decided to do that as PIC and he survived because of it. This isn't too much unlike what you as PIC try to spin a non-certified aircraft.

Your reading comprehension needs some improvement Pravee.. I never ever stated I was attempting to enter a full spin, I clearly stated I was examining the flight envelope prior to a spin entry... can you understand the difference.

He clearly mentioned in the post that when he had to do the split S, he felt that he had no other option.

Yeh great excuse, get so far behind your aircraft that you think normal recovery techniques won't work ...like in roll to the nearest horizon which has been the best option for ever..

Additionally, you're suggesting doing an intentional spin in a non-certified aircraft, thereby voiding C of A and insurance.

As I have already said, I had no intention of entering a spin...so therefore I was flying within the approved flight envelope.

Considering the anonymous nature of this forum, I don't think this is such a bright idea as you do not know what the skill level is of the person sitting at the other end of the computer screen and whether this person is indeed capable of doing it without hurting airplane or self.

Well praveen4143 you once again are showing your ignorance of what you are talking about.

I know that poster very well, in fact he once worked for me as a flight instructor and I had to get rid of him because he did not or could not fly my twin engine airplane to the standard I wanted of a flight instructor....

....and T.C. did not argue with my decision.

As I said and repeat...yes he posts with an anonymous name but I am fairly sure he is who I think he is.

In fact I am positive.

Now what?

If I am wrong then I guess I might be at risk of legal action?

[photofly]

It somewhat applies to me. I have my CPL. I am working on my multi and IFR.
I couldn't find anywhere of CARs violations and five times higher infractions. Did I miss something?
Does COPA provide legal services for its members regarding those CARs violations?
Thank You

CAR 103 Appendix A Schedule II.

COPA is in most circumstances slightly less useful than a chocolate teapot and certainly a whole lot less fun, but I confess I have no idea how they'd stack up in that situation.

[CpnCrunch]

I never got it to spin using normal spin entry techniques.

I never ever stated I was attempting to enter a full spin

Just your usual trolling. *Yawn*

I had no intention of entering a spin...so therefore I was flying within the approved flight envelope.

You never flew outside the approved envelope because your attempts at spin entry failed.

[Cat Driver]

You never flew outside the approved envelope because your attempts at spin entry failed.

Are you suggesting I do not have the skill level to stop an incipient spin in an aircraft as stable as a Cheetah?

Your comment seems to suggest exactly that.

[PilotDAR]

I was going to draw upon my experience as an owner and pilot to provide soaringhigh with an answer to the rather clear question he/she asked about buying a plane for training. It does seem however, that instead, I may have to draw upon my experience spinning a number of aircraft types (with flight permits issued to permit intentional spin entries) - and I'm not sure why....

I am very much in favour of new pilots being trained in spins and other unusual maneuvers within the approved maneuvers for the type. But the entrenched theme of spinning in the attempts to provide answers to the OP's question seems to be excluding a number of other important considerations. Soaringhigh is probably sitting in stunned disbelief, wondering what question he/she should ask to find out about buying a plane for training.

I am very much in favour of owning a decent plane for training, as doing so will enable the student to fly with greater freedom, and, have something to build experience on following PPL. An airplane is a consumable, though many components consume at a pleasingly slow rate. You cannot expect to buy a used aircraft, and not have unexpected maintenance costs, budget a few thousand for that. But, aside from horrible airframe corrosion (which is very detectable during a comprehensive PP inspection), or an engine making metal (which is very detectable with an oil filter/screen inspection, there's not a lot which will take the plane from being attractive to a horror story.

My frame of reference is being the owner of three planes, the longest two weeks short of 30 years. I bought it with 1730 hours on an 1800 hour TBO O-200. I entered it into the "on condition" program at the time, and continued beyond TBO. I did have to overhaul a few cylinders along the way, not a big deal. At 3750 hours, I found a small amount of ferrous metal, so I split the engine, worrying about the worst. It was the alternator drive coupling, the rest of the engine was fine. While apart, I replaced the mandatory parts to zero the engine, and kept going. That was 1000 hours ago. So, I've had the exclusive use of a nice plane for 30 years, and, while maintaining it decently well, it has more than tripled in value from what I paid, while I put 3000 hours on it. I think it paid me to fly it!

You can't buy a modest plane, and expect to fly it without maintaining it. You have to budget for maintenance the same way you budget for fuel and insurance. My friend Bob owned a beautiful Aztec. He liked it to always be ready to go. As it was flown, he put a generous maintenance/engine reserve in the bank. As the engines aged, he maintained them, but they hung in well. He had so much money in the reserve fund, he bought a brand new engine, and left it preserved, just in case!

I can't say that an aircraft will increase in value as you use it, so do, others not so much. But, if you want to fly many hundreds of hours, owning a modest plane will be less costly than renting one. And, it's there when you want it. If costs are a concern, buy with a partner, and share all the costs.

Sorry I interrupted the spin discussion, but it was due. 'Same as it was due for me to interrupt horrible thread drift on my recent thread about border security - other than while trying to restore it, the drift got so bad, that a mod actually removed the entire thread! We pilots would not tolerate a copilot who rambled off the discussion theme so far while flying, which would we tolerate it here either?

[praveen4143]

My apologies for the thread hijack.

Going back to airplane buying, I have heard this somewhere - Buy an airplane with only about 60-75% of the money you have to purchase as you may need the rest to bring it up to snuff. Of course this applies a lot more to cheap airplanes and if you don't do the proper pre-buy inspections.

[clairvoyant]

Got it. I glanced at that CAR 103 Appendix A Schedule II before. I must have missed that section . I have the same notion about that GA special interest organization.

=======================================================================================================
It brings me to the next questions.
Have you dealt with aircraft brokerages and/or aviation lawyers within Canada?
If so, any recommendation?
I want to cover all the legal aspects of buying aircraft before buying one.
Thank You

CAR 103 Appendix A Schedule II.

COPA is in most circumstances slightly less useful than a chocolate teapot and certainly a whole lot less fun, but I confess I have no idea how they'd stack up in that situation.

[PilotDAR]

The legal aspects of buying a plane are straight forward, you agree, you pay for it, and you become responsible for it. Your interest lies more in assuring that you're buying what your expecting, in a condition you understand. Thereafter, you will maintain and operate it responsibly.

You, the owner, are responsible for assuring that maintenance is performed so at to keep it airworthy. Your maintainer can guide you in this regard, but the responsibility is yours as the owner/pilot. You are responsible for insurance, and annual reporting to TC, as well as paying some TC and Nav Canada fees. You are responsible for maintaining the logbooks, and reporting and service difficulties.

[gwagen]

If you are going to purchase an airplane, DO NOT go for the cheapest prebuy you can, you WILL get what you pay for.

I have a good AME willing to go anywhere in NA and do a pre purchase inspection.

He has saved me WAY more than I've spent on him.

Same thing when it comes to annual.

Everyone will tell you an annual should cost $500 if there is no snags.

Well that is pure BS, a good annual will cost AT LEAST $1000 or more for 2-4 seat cessna or piper or similar single.

I know there are AMEs out there, I can name 3 right now, that will perform an annual in 20 minutes for $500... is your life worth it?

Sometimes its the little gotchas that lurk deep down, that end with your untimely demise. Or if your lucky a change of under garment.

[gwagen]

Oh and if purchasing in the US or at a distance you are uncomfortable with there are escrow services that hang onto the money until the sale and transfer is complete and to your satisfaction.

As far as setting up a company to own the plane, some seem to find benefits. I don't know, from what I've heard from others, if you have other business interests and start trying to write off
aircraft expenses, CRAs radar goes off and they come with the big probe.

[PilotDAR]

a good annual will cost AT LEAST $1000 or more for 2-4 seat cessna or piper or similar single.

Very true. If you keep the plane for years, maintaining with the same AME, and get ahead on everything, a few years down the road, you'll find that the annual costs go down. That's because your interim maintenance is appropriate - which has associated costs.

[photofly]

I would just buy the airplane yourself. Much simpler.

[clairvoyant]

Yes, I incline to do just that.
I've got my eye on a used DA42 with a low time but unfortunately, I will have to fork $$$$ to upgrade the engines to Continental 2.0 soon rather than later.
I am still number crunching on all costs.
Do you folks have any preference on insurance and mechanics?
I am based on CYRP. Thank You

I would just buy the airplane yourself. Much simpler.