Class 4 instructor hourly rate

[Aviatard]

You two are troublemakers and I'm blacklisting you.

Nah kidding. I do think PF has the edge in this peeing contest. Also rookie, I liked you in THX1138.

To the OP (like anyone cares anymore):

Nobody is going to give you students. You have to get them yourself by:

- answering phones
- greeting people who come in looking slightly lost
- doing discovery flights and successfully being the salesman who converts this prospect into a paying client
- meeting new students who have no assigned instructor by teaching ground school
- calling all your friends and family and berating them into taking flight lessons

Maybe, if you're lucky, someone will leave and the management will need to re-distribute their students among the surviving instructors. It isn't going to happen by sitting on the couch.

[rookiepilot]

Here's my advice, from a long period both as an employee, in sales, , and now 20 years as a non aviation business owner.

Simply this: You are an employee but think of yourself as a general contractor working within your business, which is really a sales business. To your prospective students, and to your own company.

Read that twice.

Which means, you need to prospect, network and build your own book. All the time.

If I was instructing, I'd go to the GM -- not the CFI, but someone with authority -- and say look. I will network like crazy, in any way I could, and bring in new business. But for every student I bring in who starts training, I want to be given 2 or 3 walk ins. Maybe more. Sure others will comment.

Sell yourself to your company, too, that you're different. Clean the planes. Sweep floors. Never sit idle. But make it clear you expect students in return. If it doesn't happen, walk and find someone who will appreciate a driven, hard worker that betters the company. They aren't your enemy, they are a tool.

My $02. For any young person.

Hmmm. Here's my first comment. Now I clearly state at the outset I have no aviation career experience. I'd suggest there are a few helpful sales type principles here, though not nearly as developed as some excellent comments of some other posters, like 90 knot's, and others.

Now Photofly, who has had both a successful business career And a top career as a flight instructor at a flight school at CTYZ, offers -- from this successful background of experience:

"Because the children know they're not going to be there very long so it doesn't really matter. It's a novelty enough not to be paying to fly, and most of them would probably work for free".

That's sure an encouraging post to a new class 4.....

Photofly, do you think that little of your chosen profession -- which you gave up a successful business for? Why are you not more positive about instructing as a career? (If not ) Why on earth would you give up a great profitable business, then?

And one more question, Photofly: How, as a senior, accomplished instructor at your school, are you helping develop the businesses of new class 4's at your school? Passing some students to them? Mentoring them? Giving back in some respect?

Just again, curious.

[rookiepilot]

Still waiting.

What specific, positive advice do you have for the OP Photofly, to build a successful, long term flight instructing business?

I think we'd all like to hear lessons from your experience.

[CpnCrunch]

Give it up Rookie....

[DonutHole]

Business is piss simple. Buy/produce shit for less than it costs to sell it.

Class dismissed

[marakii]

You two are troublemakers and I'm blacklisting you.

Nah kidding. I do think PF has the edge in this peeing contest. Also rookie, I liked you in THX1138.

To the OP (like anyone cares anymore):

Nobody is going to give you students. You have to get them yourself by:

- answering phones
- greeting people who come in looking slightly lost
- doing discovery flights and successfully being the salesman who converts this prospect into a paying client
- meeting new students who have no assigned instructor by teaching ground school
- calling all your friends and family and berating them into taking flight lessons

Maybe, if you're lucky, someone will leave and the management will need to re-distribute their students among the surviving instructors. It isn't going to happen by sitting on the couch.

Someone did leave but none of the students came my way, what would you do?
I've talked to the chief with no answers.

[photofly]

What exactly do you mean by "no answers"? It's a two way street - the FTU has legitimate expectations of you, but they also need to help you to succeed. You need to push harder for answers. Of course you mustn't be a troublemaker, we know what problems *that* will bring, but being too meek won't help either.

[marakii]

There is a need for instructors in the industry now, if your present employer will or can not give you more flying find another employer.

The problem is you need to get to a class three and then you can free lance.

I made myself available as much as I can but it's not seven days a week as I have a family at home and another part time job but they still won't give me any students , don't know what to do I have a dilemma . Even though I am available to fly they won't give me the student but to the other instructors.

frustrating!

Here's my advice, from a long period both as an employee, in sales, , and now 20 years as a non aviation business owner.

Simply this: You are an employee but think of yourself as a general contractor working within your business, which is really a sales business. To your prospective students, and to your own company.

Read that twice.

Which means, you need to prospect, network and build your own book. All the time.

If I was instructing, I'd go to the GM -- not the CFI, but someone with authority -- and say look. I will network like crazy, in any way I could, and bring in new business. But for every student I bring in who starts training, I want to be given 2 or 3 walk ins. Maybe more. Sure others will comment.



I was very agressive as a negotiator when I was an employee, and could be, because I was always near or the top producer in any company I was in. I busted my butt too, always, and did work not expected of me, which isn't a popular concept in communist Canada these days.

Trolls to that comment, don't bother. That attitude is why I am a company owner now, work when and how I please. But few want to work really hard. It's a dirty word in Canada.

Anyway...

Sell yourself to your company, too, that you're different. Clean the planes. Sweep floors. Never sit idle. But make it clear you expect students in return. If it doesn't happen, walk and find someone who will appreciate a driven, hard worker that betters the company. They aren't your enemy, they are a tool.

My $02. For any young person.

What will happen if I go over the CFI's head and talk to the GM and get the CFI all upset , then I might be in a worse spot. Your thoughts?

[photofly]

Keeping sweet with the CFI is working oh-so-well for you thus far, nej?

[Shiny Side Up]

If I was instructing, I'd go to the GM -- not the CFI, but someone with authority -- and say look. I will network like crazy, in any way I could, and bring in new business. But for every student I bring in who starts training, I want to be given 2 or 3 walk ins.

It's fine and dandy to demand students as a class 4, it's another thing to get them. In most cases it's the students who dictate who they want and as a new instructor the chief selling point you have is availability. If you don't have availability, it don't matter a hill of beans what else you do, you won't get students and if you get them you won't keep them. Even if our class 4 here brings in lots of students I suspect at the heart of this it's his availability that is ultimately lacking, which maybe he doesn't want to admit. But then I suspect we've been through this discussion before with this particular class 4.

You have to put in a lot of time as a flight instructor, or hav a special skill set students desire to start dictating your schedule. As a career, it's a long road to that level.

[marakii]

If I was instructing, I'd go to the GM -- not the CFI, but someone with authority -- and say look. I will network like crazy, in any way I could, and bring in new business. But for every student I bring in who starts training, I want to be given 2 or 3 walk ins.

It's fine and dandy to demand students as a class 4, it's another thing to get them. In most cases it's the students who dictate who they want and as a new instructor the chief selling point you have is availability. If you don't have availability, it don't matter a hill of beans what else you do, you won't get students and if you get them you won't keep them. Even if our class 4 here brings in lots of students I suspect at the heart of this it's his availability that is ultimately lacking, which maybe he doesn't want to admit. But then I suspect we've been through this discussion before with this particular class 4.

You have to put in a lot of time as a flight instructor, or hav a special skill set students desire to start dictating your schedule. As a career, it's a long road to that level.

Thank you for the positive comments, i feel better now.

[trey kule]

There are two ways to determine this.
1. As a " contracter". You should be charging 2.5 to 3x. your salary expectations.
If you want to make $17 an hour for your time , then about $45 to $50 per flight hours.
This is pretty much a standard formula an accountant will give you. The FTU is not treating you as an employee by only paying when you can bill, so you can expect some dead, non billable time in your day.

2. The second is a percentage of what is being charged. This is more subject to negotiation , but a general number is 50-75% of the billing.

If the employer, despite treating you as a contracter, pays their portion of cpp, EI, and holiday pay, you can adjust these numbers downward by about 15%

Part of the whole problem of this pay system is instructors are expected to work 70 hour weeks, and, though not getting paid are expected to show initiative by doing things for the employer for no charge..

When a student walks in the door, does the FTU give them a didcount for a class 4? Does the fru pick up the tab for the stage check pre solo and pre flight test rides because the student was being taught by a class 4.? I have never seen it..

[7ECA]

If the employer, despite treating you as a contracter, pays their portion of cpp, EI, and holiday pay, you can adjust these numbers downward by about 15%

That's be deducted from your pay during each pay period. Maybe there's a school out there that does otherwise, but I doubt it.

Part of the whole problem of this pay system is instructors are expected to work 70 hour weeks, and, though not getting paid are expected to show initiative by doing things for the employer for no charge..

The best by far though, are the large schools with international students. These beauties will expect very long weeks, with a minimal percentage of the time paid. And, they'll have maximum billing times. Certain schools will have "policies" in place, where instructors are supposed to do PGIs in 10-15 minutes, and then Pre-Flight and Post-Flight briefings in 5-10 minutes. And then they'll have a set time for each flight, and you can only bill for that amount of time, so going over - doesn't pay.

Then there's the flight test prep billing, no more than 1.5 hours for PPL or CPL - doesn't matter that the student can't really hold a conversation in English.

When a student walks in the door, does the FTU give them a didcount for a class 4? Does the fru pick up the tab for the stage check pre solo and pre flight test rides because the student was being taught by a class 4.? I have never seen it..

Of course not, although it is beneficial for a school to get their class 4s working so they can upgrade quickly. Once they have upgraded to class 3, then they do not need to meet the onerous direct supervision requirements.

[trey kule]

That's be deducted from your pay during each pay period. Maybe there's a school out there that does otherwise, but I doubt it.

Sigh......if you are an employee, then not only is a deduction made from your gross pay, but the employer is required to pay an additional multiple of CPP and EI. Technically, this employer portion is part of a thing called overburden, and it typically runs about 20%. This does not show up on your paycheque.

The slimiest of the slimiest will advertise a wage, say $20 an hourwhen they are really only paing $16, as they inlude holiday. Pay, overtime, etc, in their advertised "wage"

Also, the federal labour board is a joke, and certain occupations related to aviation do not fall under privincial jurisdiction. I am not sure about instructors.

[rookiepilot]

There are two ways to determine this.
1. As a " contracter". You should be charging 2.5 to 3x. your salary expectations.
If you want to make $17 an hour for your time , then about $45 to $50 per flight hours.
This is pretty much a standard formula an accountant will give you. The FTU is not treating you as an employee by only paying when you can bill, so you can expect some dead, non billable time in your day.

2. The second is a percentage of what is being charged. This is more subject to negotiation , but a general number is 50-75% of the billing.

If the employer, despite treating you as a contracter, pays their portion of cpp, EI, and holiday pay, you can adjust these numbers downward by about 15%

Part of the whole problem of this pay system is instructors are expected to work 70 hour weeks, and, though not getting paid are expected to show initiative by doing things for the employer for no charge..

When a student walks in the door, does the FTU give them a didcount for a class 4? Does the fru pick up the tab for the stage check pre solo and pre flight test rides because the student was being taught by a class 4.? I have never seen it..

Do you mean, #2, in your world, you think the school should pay up to 75% of the amount billed the student, to the instructor?

Just want to understand that correctly.

[photofly]

I think he means 50-75% of what is billed as the "instructor" cost, not the entire amount paid.

[rookiepilot]

I think he means 50-75% of what is billed as the "instructor" cost, not the entire amount paid.

Yeah...that makes more sense.
I could see pushing for at least half, as an instructor.

But does go to the point...that is the value in making oneself more valuable to ones employer, and increase ones negotiating position. I believe one can work hard, stand out...and then negotiate.

I would pay more in theory, to an employee that added value, than one with a perpetually negative impact on the organization for attitude or other reasons.

Make ones own luck / opportunities, so to speak.....

[trey kule]

Double post

[trey kule]

My experience is that employees who demonstrate outstanding performance do not neccisarily get rewarded. And, at the same time, those that negotiate well often fail to live up to their promises.

I have seen complete unfairness is the way employer's treat different employees, and it has caused many good employees to leave.One of the most damaging to morale is paying based on negotiating skills. Usually identified in a company where wages are to be kept confidential....it does not happen, and bitterness occurs. Let me say it again. It is the good employees that leave.

The best situation if for an employer to clearly define the duties, working conditions, and Wages.
For everyone. Then keep their word. Promote those who accel, and not favour one over the other.

As to my precentage.. Yes, on the instructor billed portion.

An employer is buying your time. If they expect you to "be there" 70 hours a week, then you need to calculate your hourly billable rate to compensate for the time.
If you have 6 hours non billable a day, then the other six need to cover all twelve.
It is all about your time...not only the time you soend teaching.

[rookiepilot]

It is all about your time...not only the time you soend teaching.

That's all fine, get your point.

Just a thought from the "other side" as a business owner -- not aviation but its applicable -- nothing I offer is without cost, either.

Time; (As a business owner I'm never fully "off" -- ask any owner)
Experience and expertise;
return on my capital I'm risking in the business, which could be lost, leaving me with bubkas.

Its a lot of risk, stress, time and energy. I expect to be paid reasonably for all of it, or I'd shut it down. Suspect most owners feel the same.

As I said I think the FTU world is a tough go, especially small ones without economy of scale.