Wheel landing or three point?

[Cat Driver]

I also teach wheel landings first.

The reason is most pilots already know how to land nose high using power.

Also I have them learn to flare and land with no power.

Once they are comfortable doing wheel landings power off I let them try using power.

By the way they do not get to actually fly until they can control the airplane on the runway both with the tail on the ground and with the tail in the air.

[youhavecontrol]

Some instructors here get bent out of shape because of how and what I post, for instance my comments about PIO in a Citabria one of the most benign tail wheel airplanes ever made.

If you can't wheel land a Citabria you should not be teaching on a tail wheel airplane I don't care if the pilot has two million hours, in my opinion of course.

I got bent out of shape over the hasty comment that my old instructor was an idiot. You made that comment without me ever saying I couldn't do a wheel landing and without me saying my instructor didn't teach wheel landings. I posted my preference to 3 point on the only tailwheel aircraft I've flown, which is what you asked for, and then gave an example of a time I did a wheel landing and it worked out very well. I don't know how else I could have orchestrated a response that would have answered your original question without my past training being pissed on. The instructor is a mentor of mine, so I take it personally.

Why did you assume I didn't know anything else or weren't taught anything else? Why did you ask the question in the first place? This doesn't come across as a reasonable discussion, if that was your original intent. (then again, this is the internets)

By the way, PIO is a reasonable risk with ab-initio students who have trouble judging rate of descent on touch-down in a tail-dragger.. even in a Citabria. Why do so few schools teach with tailwheel aircraft these days? It's not just because instructors somehow stopped doing their job and just stopped teaching things like rudder use and inertia management. It's because there's a greater risk involved with having an aircraft with less dynamic stability on landing with student pilots. So? ..many schools switch to a less ideal, but statistically safer landing configuration. For the few, lovely schools that do have tailwheel aircraft, like mine did, they encourage inexperienced students towards the type of landing they find statistically safer for the envelope the student will normally be operating in during their training. NOT all that insane to imagine.

You know...it's not so different than having a preference of one landing type over another. Tailwheel or Tricycle? Wheel landing or 3 point? ...one might be better than the other in certain circumstances, but it's nice to know both. Just because you choose one, doesn't mean you're completely ignorant or incapable of the other.

[Cat Driver]

Sorry you are bent out of shape.

So let me expand on the comment I made based on your outline of your training.

I did about 35 hours or so in a Citabria during my flight training. I remember we were encouraged to do 3 point landings in the Citabria, mainly to avoid the potential risk of porpoising. It's so easy to 'pin the tail' when it's already down. I remember doing a few tailwheel landings for 'demonstration/practice' with my instructor, but being told that there were few occasions where the wheel landing was beneficial in the Citabria. Our solo max crosswind in the Citabria was 10kts for solo flights authorizations.

The purpose of teaching wheel landings when teaching people to fly tail wheel airplanes is to ensure they understand how to perform them safely and comfortably in case they have to do one due to excessive cross winds.

Well, one day I took off for a cross-country and on the way back home I had to unexpectedly land in about 17kts of crosswind, which at my level was 7kts out of my limits, and 2kts over the max demonstrated, if I recall correctly. I most definitely did my first wheel landing solo and it was most excellent. In retrospect, I should have diverted to one of the nearby fields more suitable to the wind conditions, but Post-PPL Me had a bit too much confidence.

I probably should have used a different wording to express my opinion on the training you were given.

So I retract the idiot comment and will replace it with your training was not finished as you were not taught wheel landings,

I am from the old school of flying and partial training practices are in my opinion unsafe.

Once again.

A proper tail wheel check put includes both wheel landings and three point landings and each type must be thoroughly understood and properly taught.

You yourself have said did your your first wheel landing flying solo.

[youhavecontrol]

You yourself have said did your your first wheel landing flying solo.

Oops.. I'll clarify that: I said I did my first solo wheel landing, as in, I did my first wheel landing as a solo student that day. I did several wheel landings dual prior to that, but none solo. I apologize for writing it to make is sound like that was my first one. My phrasing was off.

[pelmet]

Depends on aircraft and pilot. In consideration for aircraft where both methods can be safely used......I typically do wheelies on the pavement but discovered to my surprise recently that the Decathlon is much easier to three point even in a reasonable crosswind can't remember if there is much handling difference between the Citabria and Decathlon(the wings are different).

I do agree that in general.....wheel landings are better for me in a crosswind as it seems to be less likely to be drifting across the runway in a near stalled condition while trying to three point it on. The wheel landing gives you better vis compared to the poor to no vis ahead on some aircraft, while a faster touchdown speed gives better control response on gusty days. Of course, one may decide to three point it in on the nicer days but I do take consideration of the robustness of the aircraft as well. The reality for many of us is....we are not doing a lot of landings in the particular aircraft we are flying and/or are flying more than one type.

Result.....a three pointer that drops in fairly firmly. Not good for the tailwheel structure of aircraft that are not so robust. Which is why I....in general.....save the three pointers for the softer, more forgiving grass runways. Besides, who knows what the grass runway is really like. Does it have a soft area or a long grass area or a significant undulation. If doing a wheel landing in the grass, you are more likely to nose over if there is a sudden deceleration as compared to the slower, tail down, full up elevator landing and rollout of the three pointer.

[cgzro]

"the Decathlon is much easier to three point even in a reasonable crosswind can't remember if there is much handling difference between the Citabria and Decathlon(the wings are different)."

The Decathlon is surprisingly easier to land that the Citabria which is much more floaty with the slightly bigger wing and flaps.
Both will do either three or two point very nicely but if the tires are very well inflated a two pointer PIO is more likely and as I mentioned the little trick of putting one wheel down a tiny bit before the other fixes that problem.

[PilotDAR]

I was never formally taught on taildraggers, I just picked it up along the way. During not being formally taught, I was never taught wheel landings - until I was being trained in the DC-3. That, I was told, was not to be three point landed. That was my first wheel landing training. It stuck with me. I started to wheel land the other taildraggers I flew, and was very pleased with the smoother landings I achieved.

While landing at home once, suspecting that the tailwheel had not locked down, I wheel landed, so as to reduce/delay the risk of a tailwheel collapse. It was the nicest landing I had ever done (and the tailwheel held too!). I started to experiment. I found that where my three point landings were always demanding, and often not pride worthy, my wheel landings were consistently really gentle and satisfying.

If I ever need to make a really short landing, ye, I will three point. Otherwise, I choose to wheel land all the taildraggers I fly, and I am consistently pleased with the outcome.

[Cat Driver]

Short landings in some tail wheel airplanes are easier to perform by wheel landing and then lowering the nose to load the wheels for better braking. You can accurately touch down just below the stall speed and then lower the nose, works like a charm.

Also some airplanes are easier to wheel land rather than three point, example is the Beech 18 with full flaps.

[JasonE]

I fall into the same category as PilotDar. Had to teach myself wheel landings once I was comfortable with the airplane. I do find them much easier (especially on pavement) but like the shortness of the 3 point.

[Cat Driver]

I notice a lot of pilots comment on the difference in landing distance between a three point and a wheel landing.

Do you use power during the last fifty feet to touch down?

Personally I prefer the wheel landing for a lot of reasons, one being it is easier to touch down on a given point and I close the throttle/'s completely at fifty feet and touch down at a low airspeed so the airplane does not float very far from the round out to contact with the runway..

[JasonE]

I use a touch of power probably till about 10 feet off the runway. Maybe I should just wheel land, my 3 point sucked tonight. Thank god it was behind the trees so no one saw! (hopefully)

[Cat Driver]

Don't sweat a bad landing, everyone does them from time to time.

[pelmet]

The Decathlon is surprisingly easier to land that the Citabria which is much more floaty with the slightly bigger wing and flaps.

Most of my time was on a Citabria 7GCAA.......no flaps.

Short landings in some tail wheel airplanes are easier to perform by wheel landing and then lowering the nose to load the wheels for better braking. You can accurately touch down just below the stall speed and then lower the nose, works like a charm.

My shortest landings seemd to be three-pointers. C-180 and C-170 with the barn-door flaps landed very short with a full-stall three point landing and seemed shorter than the wheel landings I did by a significant amount. Plus brake application didn't risk a nose-over as much.

[cgzro]

You can get very short landing distances 2 point by deaccellerating faster than in 3 point attitude because you can have full weight on the wheels (or more if you push hard). So with proper technique on a dry runway you might be able to outperform a 3 point distance but it requires hard push and very heavy braking so you beat the aerodynamic braking of the higher AOA 3 point.

On a slipery surface obviously this is not possible and its highly aircraft and technique dependent.