Further to what Hvd2Pilot noted: I trained on the Harvard (Mk 2 and Mk 4) in the last century and all landings were 3-point. Not that 150 hours on type makes me an expert, but if 19-year old kids can consistently 3-point that beast in prairie winds... (;>0)

Every situation is different. I like to be proficient in both and use what fits the situation better.

In strong (15-20kt+ gusty x winds in a light tail dragged) I almost always wheel landed, on short fields with no real obstacles I almost always 3 pointed, short field with an obstacle I'd always clear it and land with minimal flare which unless I was carrying to much speed would be a 3 or as I was already on the slow speed side of the drag curve (only in calmish winds). When there is no special situation I normally prefer a wheel landing as you can have more satisfaction putting it on one wheel then the otger.

As an instructor I'd normally have my students land on one wheel as asked, then put it on both, then the other and maybe drive it down on one for a while so they could get comfortable with everything. Almost always in a 2 pt attitude as there was always enough speed to use the rudder.

And therein lies the advantage of the wheel landing, you have more speed for control effectiveness ( control authority for the new agers. )

Sometimes, a 3 pointer is like rolling the dice, you may make a perfect one or not, but when conditions permit, a 2 pointer always looks good and you can ease the little back end munchkin down at will!

I can't say I have a lot of experience in a tailwheel at all. I did about 35 hours or so in a Citabria during my flight training. I remember we were encouraged to do 3 point landings in the Citabria, mainly to avoid the potential risk of porpoising. It's so easy to 'pin the tail' when it's already down. I remember doing a few tailwheel landings for 'demonstration/practice' with my instructor, but being told that there were few occasions where the wheel landing was beneficial in the Citabria. Our solo max crosswind in the Citabria was 10kts for solo flights authorizations.

Well, one day I took off for a cross-country and on the way back home I had to unexpectedly land in about 17kts of crosswind, which at my level was 7kts out of my limits, and 2kts over the max demonstrated, if I recall correctly. I most definitely did my first wheel landing solo and it was most excellent. In retrospect, I should have diverted to one of the nearby fields more suitable to the wind conditions, but Post-PPL Me had a bit too much confidence.

A type, time and place for each technique.

I remember we were encouraged to do 3 point landings in the Citabria, mainly to avoid the potential risk of porpoising.

How do these idiots get to instruct?

My very high time aerobatic instructor who I did my tailwheel checkout with once said, "If you're worried about control or visibility remember every landing is on three points eventually." As such, I have very little experience with wheel landings and it has never really made a difference to me.

This subject is really quite simple.

If you were not trained to be equally proficient in both Wheel landings and in three point landings you are not properly trained to safely fly tail wheel airplanes.

What's the preference when on skis?

What's the preference when on skis?

Once again it depends on the conditions at the time.

Landing on skis does sometimes have the problem of difficulty in judging your height because of whiteout conditions much like glassy water.

However if there is a strong cross wind the surface will usually be easy to see and the wheel landing would be my preference.

Austin Airways put the DC3's on wheel skis in the winter, they gave one a real wide choice of where to land and how much ski to use.

Cat Driver wrote: How do these idiots get to instruct?

Well, for starters he has over 20,000 hours in small aircraft from the Beaver, to the Twin Otter, and even amphib Caravans, and served for around 20 years in Indonesia and Eastern Asia as a humanitarian bush pilot. Also he's been an instructor for about 8 years and does technical evaluations for mission pilots. So yeah... I trust his judgement when he said to me that three point landings, in a Citabria, which I was flying, usually gave the best outcome. ...and it's not like I said I was NEVER taught wheel landings, I just didn't do them solo because our cross-wind limits were low enough I never felt the need to. I just said 3 points were encouraged...

Don't throw my aviation roll model under a bus please.

youhavecontrol - don't sweat it. After you've been here awhile you'll see there are a number of high-time posters who think that anyone who doesn't agree with them is an idiot, especially if that someone is an instructor. It makes discussion difficult but don't get your hackles up and take what value you can from all the posts.

Continue contributing in a rational and composed manner and enjoy the show.

The simple trick to avoiding PIO in a two point landing is simply to put one main down slightly before the other. This ensures that you have a bit more time to check the bounce. Works beautifully in all the tail draggers Ive flown so far. From j3s, Citabrias, Decathlon, Extra, all the Pitts line, Harvard, Moth, FoxMoth, champ, Chipmunk, Finch...

Unfortunately most instructors either dont know this or dont teach it. This now obvious trick transformed tail wheel flying for me especially cross winds and narrow runways and I am extremely grateful to the one instructor who quite simply explained it while all the others did not. While im sure many instructors do know it and do teach it my experience was about 1 out of 20.

Unfortunately most instructors either don't know this or don't teach it.

Generally they don't know it because their instructors before them did not know it.

Much of the problem is due to not being able to maintain an approach attitude and judging when to flare for a wheel landing.

They are taught to use a nose high attitude and some power and wait for an arrival.

Some instructors here get bent out of shape because of how and what I post, for instance my comments about PIO in a Citabria one of the most benign tail wheel airplanes ever made.

If you can't wheel land a Citabria you should not be teaching on a tail wheel airplane I don't care if the pilot has two million hours, in my opinion of course.

I was taught wheel landings right from the very first landing I made. I expected to be told to do a three point, but nope right into the deep end! I enjoyed it and survived, somehow...

I also teach wheel landings first.

The reason is most pilots already know how to land nose high using power.

Also I have them learn to flare and land with no power.

Once they are comfortable doing wheel landings power off I let them try using power.

By the way they do not get to actually fly until they can control the airplane on the runway both with the tail on the ground and with the tail in the air.

Cat Driver wrote:

Some instructors here get bent out of shape because of how and what I post, for instance my comments about PIO in a Citabria one of the most benign tail wheel airplanes ever made.

If you can't wheel land a Citabria you should not be teaching on a tail wheel airplane I don't care if the pilot has two million hours, in my opinion of course.

I got bent out of shape over the hasty comment that my old instructor was an idiot. You made that comment without me ever saying I couldn't do a wheel landing and without me saying my instructor didn't teach wheel landings. I posted my preference to 3 point on the only tailwheel aircraft I've flown, which is what you asked for, and then gave an example of a time I did a wheel landing and it worked out very well. I don't know how else I could have orchestrated a response that would have answered your original question without my past training being pissed on. The instructor is a mentor of mine, so I take it personally.

Why did you assume I didn't know anything else or weren't taught anything else? Why did you ask the question in the first place? This doesn't come across as a reasonable discussion, if that was your original intent. (then again, this is the internets)

By the way, PIO is a reasonable risk with ab-initio students who have trouble judging rate of descent on touch-down in a tail-dragger.. even in a Citabria. Why do so few schools teach with tailwheel aircraft these days? It's not just because instructors somehow stopped doing their job and just stopped teaching things like rudder use and inertia management. It's because there's a greater risk involved with having an aircraft with less dynamic stability on landing with student pilots. So? ..many schools switch to a less ideal, but statistically safer landing configuration. For the few, lovely schools that do have tailwheel aircraft, like mine did, they encourage inexperienced students towards the type of landing they find statistically safer for the envelope the student will normally be operating in during their training. NOT all that insane to imagine.

You know...it's not so different than having a preference of one landing type over another. Tailwheel or Tricycle? Wheel landing or 3 point? ...one might be better than the other in certain circumstances, but it's nice to know both. Just because you choose one, doesn't mean you're completely ignorant or incapable of the other.

Sorry you are bent out of shape.

So let me expand on the comment I made based on your outline of your training.

I did about 35 hours or so in a Citabria during my flight training. I remember we were encouraged to do 3 point landings in the Citabria, mainly to avoid the potential risk of porpoising. It's so easy to 'pin the tail' when it's already down. I remember doing a few tailwheel landings for 'demonstration/practice' with my instructor, but being told that there were few occasions where the wheel landing was beneficial in the Citabria. Our solo max crosswind in the Citabria was 10kts for solo flights authorizations.

The purpose of teaching wheel landings when teaching people to fly tail wheel airplanes is to ensure they understand how to perform them safely and comfortably in case they have to do one due to excessive cross winds.

Well, one day I took off for a cross-country and on the way back home I had to unexpectedly land in about 17kts of crosswind, which at my level was 7kts out of my limits, and 2kts over the max demonstrated, if I recall correctly. I most definitely did my first wheel landing solo and it was most excellent. In retrospect, I should have diverted to one of the nearby fields more suitable to the wind conditions, but Post-PPL Me had a bit too much confidence.

I probably should have used a different wording to express my opinion on the training you were given.

So I retract the idiot comment and will replace it with your training was not finished as you were not taught wheel landings,

I am from the old school of flying and partial training practices are in my opinion unsafe.

Once again.

A proper tail wheel check put includes both wheel landings and three point landings and each type must be thoroughly understood and properly taught.

You yourself have said did your your first wheel landing flying solo.

Cat Driver wrote: You yourself have said did your your first wheel landing flying solo.

Oops.. I'll clarify that: I said I did my first solo wheel landing, as in, I did my first wheel landing as a solo student that day. I did several wheel landings dual prior to that, but none solo. I apologize for writing it to make is sound like that was my first one. My phrasing was off.

Depends on aircraft and pilot. In consideration for aircraft where both methods can be safely used......I typically do wheelies on the pavement but discovered to my surprise recently that the Decathlon is much easier to three point even in a reasonable crosswind can't remember if there is much handling difference between the Citabria and Decathlon(the wings are different).

I do agree that in general.....wheel landings are better for me in a crosswind as it seems to be less likely to be drifting across the runway in a near stalled condition while trying to three point it on. The wheel landing gives you better vis compared to the poor to no vis ahead on some aircraft, while a faster touchdown speed gives better control response on gusty days. Of course, one may decide to three point it in on the nicer days but I do take consideration of the robustness of the aircraft as well. The reality for many of us is....we are not doing a lot of landings in the particular aircraft we are flying and/or are flying more than one type.

Result.....a three pointer that drops in fairly firmly. Not good for the tailwheel structure of aircraft that are not so robust. Which is why I....in general.....save the three pointers for the softer, more forgiving grass runways. Besides, who knows what the grass runway is really like. Does it have a soft area or a long grass area or a significant undulation. If doing a wheel landing in the grass, you are more likely to nose over if there is a sudden deceleration as compared to the slower, tail down, full up elevator landing and rollout of the three pointer.